How much better do all grains do than LME?

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thood6

thood6

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Once again, new to the art of brewing. The obsession has started. But anyways, how much better are all grain brews vs. LME?
 
It's more a matter of preference & opinion. A lot of brewers say the flavor, head retention, etc increase dramatically with all-grain, but others (like me...) are perfectly content with extract & partial-mash batches (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with either, by the way :)). It's completely up to you if you want to make the jump already, but since you're a new brewer, I recommend getting some basic extract-only brews under your belt, make the move to partial mash, then consider if you're ready to hit the all-grain.
 
You can make great beers with extract, but you can make MORE great beers using all grain. The biggest advantage to all grain over extract is you have more ingredient options to work with. If you are using extract you really only have specialty malts to play with. If you want to use malts like Munich, Vienna, 6-row, Maris Otter, Rye, Wheat, Pilsner, corn, rice... you need to be able to mash them aka all grain or partial mash. A partial mash isn't difficult and requires almost no extra equipment over extract. The next best advantage is you can control the fermentability of your beer better by adjusting the mash temprature. Want a dry crisp lager? Mash at a low temp. Want a full body beer? Mash at a higher temp. You don't get that degree of control with extract.
 
The best idea is to:

DO BOTH

I have recipes that can only be done AG, a bunch that can be either (depending how long a brew day SWMBO will allow) and sometimes grab an extract kit like if I'm going to a brew party at a friends place... Stay open to all kinds of brewing. Don't get locked in to one style and start getting an attitude about it. That would just make you bored and boring.
 
shafferpilot said:
The best idea is to:

DO BOTH

I have recipes that can only be done AG, a bunch that can be either (depending how long a brew day SWMBO will allow) and sometimes grab an extract kit like if I'm going to a brew party at a friends place... Stay open to all kinds of brewing. Don't get locked in to one style and start getting an attitude about it. That would just make you bored and boring.
Click to expand...

This.

I started AG and have been ever since, but as time is getting limited, I'm definitely considering some extract and partial mash type batches to cut down on the brew day a bit.
 
No shame in using extract. A great beer is a great beer regardless of whether the mash was performed at somebody's house in a plastic cooler or at a commercial food processing facility in a giant stainless vessel.

All grain means more fun and, as mentioned, control.
 
scrambledegg81 said:
It's more a matter of preference & opinion. A lot of brewers say the flavor, head retention, etc increase dramatically with all-grain, but others (like me...) are perfectly content with extract & partial-mash batches (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with either, by the way :)). It's completely up to you if you want to make the jump already, but since you're a new brewer, I recommend getting some basic extract-only brews under your belt, make the move to partial mash, then consider if you're ready to hit the all-grain.
Click to expand...

Or do I like did and say "screw it, I'm starting with all grain"!

IMO The source is always better. The "source" for DME, LME is GRAIN. All grain doesn't need to cost much to do. Most people have a good portion of the stuff already. My thought process is that if all grain is where a lot of people end up, then why not go there first. That being said I did a lot of research and reading before I jumped in.

I may be different than some because the process to me is what is intriguing. I get excited from basically taking nothing and turning it into something. Plus the smell of all grain reminds me of childhood on the farm.

I may try extract again (I did a Mr. Beer Kit once upon a time) once winter gets here as using the garden hose for my IC would not work. Although I have an idea for a closed system that would allow me to do AG all year round without concern.

You need to do what fits your budget, time, and space.
 
Some brewers have even done side-by-side EXTRACT vs. ALL GRAIN batch comparisons, and the latest prevailing experimental evidence seems to suggest that there isn't much difference. More than one side-by-side comparison I saw concluded that the MYTH behind EXTRACT being inferior to ALL GRAIN comes from a few basic facts:

#1: ALL GRAIN brewers tend to use fresher ingredients. Most kits that EXTRACT brewers buy tend to be in hobby shops or LHBS shops that do not turn over these products as quickly as ideal. There is no telling how old the LME in any given kit is, while most grain is fresh and is certainly freshly milled and freshly mashed on brew day.

#2: ALL GRAIN brewers tend to conduct a more seemless brewing process. Though they exist, there are very few EXTRACT brewers with 1+ years of experience. Through they exist, there are very few ALL GRAIN brewers with less than a few batches experience. So your average AG brewer tends to have the process down pact, while your average EXTRACT brewer is still learning and making mistakes. Find a newbie brewer and have him whip up an AG batch, and I'll whip up an EXTRACT batch, and mine WILL be better.

#3: AND THIS IS A BIG ONE: The average ALL GRAIN brewer uses advanced techniques that the average EXTRACT brewer just does not. Things like oxygen infussion into wort pre-fermentation, optimizing their water profile - especially getting a 5.2-5.6 PH and minimizing chlorine, full-volume boils, and the BIGGIE - TEMPERATURE CONTROLLED FERMENTATION. Practicing these advanced techniques, in particular controlling fermentation temps, and you can make an extract batch that rivals an AG batch. It's just the average EXTRACT brewer has already moved on to AG by the time they start doing these things. You are really GETTING SERIOUS by the time you have a temperature controlled cooler or freezer in your living room, and very few people get serious and stick with EXTRACT.

Anyway, hope that helps. It's just by the time you get to where you REALLY know how to brew, most people are ready to take on AG brewing, so you think you are making better brews jsut due to the ingredients, but you leave all of the other factors out.

It's kinda like saying that Bobby Flay couldn't make a world-class chili if you gave him tomatoes in a can. It's mainly the knowledge and skill of the BREWER that determines the quality of the beer, not whether you pre-mash the malt or do it on brew day.
 
Well said topher. Fresh ingredients & skill/experience will make a good beer,no matter what is used. Idk if I'll ever go AG,but you never know. AG is not the be all,end all of brewing to me. Either one can make a disaster. Either one can be a competition winner. When it comes to brewing,knowledge is power. I'm just having a lot of fun exploring my "recombinant extract" theory for the time being. And isn't that what we're all here for?
 
TopherM said:
Some brewers have even done side-by-side EXTRACT vs. ALL GRAIN batch comparisons, and the latest prevailing experimental evidence seems to suggest that there isn't much difference. More than one side-by-side comparison I saw concluded that the MYTH behind EXTRACT being inferior to ALL GRAIN comes from a few basic facts:

#1: ALL GRAIN brewers tend to use fresher ingredients. Most kits that EXTRACT brewers buy tend to be in hobby shops or LHBS shops that do not turn over these products as quickly as ideal. There is no telling how old the LME in any given kit is, while most grain is fresh and is certainly freshly milled and freshly mashed on brew day.

#2: ALL GRAIN brewers tend to conduct a more seemless brewing process. Though they exist, there are very few EXTRACT brewers with 1+ years of experience. Through they exist, there are very few ALL GRAIN brewers with less than a few batches experience. So your average AG brewer tends to have the process down pact, while your average EXTRACT brewer is still learning and making mistakes. Find a newbie brewer and have him whip up an AG batch, and I'll whip up an EXTRACT batch, and mine WILL be better.

#3: AND THIS IS A BIG ONE: The average ALL GRAIN brewer uses advanced techniques that the average EXTRACT brewer just does not. Things like oxygen infussion into wort pre-fermentation, optimizing their water profile - especially getting a 5.2-5.6 PH and minimizing chlorine, full-volume boils, and the BIGGIE - TEMPERATURE CONTROLLED FERMENTATION. Practicing these advanced techniques, in particular controlling fermentation temps, and you can make an extract batch that rivals an AG batch. It's just the average EXTRACT brewer has already moved on to AG by the time they start doing these things. You are really GETTING SERIOUS by the time you have a temperature controlled cooler or freezer in your living room, and very few people get serious and stick with EXTRACT.

Anyway, hope that helps. It's just by the time you get to where you REALLY know how to brew, most people are ready to take on AG brewing, so you think you are making better brews jsut due to the ingredients, but you leave all of the other factors out.

It's kinda like saying that Bobby Flay couldn't make a world-class chili if you gave him tomatoes in a can. It's mainly the knowledge and skill of the BREWER that determines the quality of the beer, not whether you pre-mash the malt or do it on brew day.
Click to expand...

I am an extract brewer of multiple years.

I use fresh ingredients ordered from northernbrewer.com and brewmasterswarehouse.com. They are big so ingredients don't sit around.

I have the process dialed in. I have done lots of extract batches.

I use some of your advanced techniques; fermentation temperature control and full volume boils.

I am not knocking all grain, it sounds fun.
 
It's been covered pretty well, but just to add, a lot of it really has to do with your process. If you haven't gotten the basics down, you can brew a horrible AG batch.

I'm an advocate of the step by step method. Starting with a coopers can, then an "extract kit" with specialty grains and hops, then partial mash, then all grain. (doing as many of each step as you need to/want to to get your process down.

In between you can work on things like fermentation temperatures, yeast starters, and any number of things to make better brew.

My personal journey so far has been 1 coopers can, 3 extract kits, 1 partial mash. I have another PM ready for the next batch, though I probably won't be able to go AG for a while do to cost. But the long and short of it is you can make great beer with extract kits. The advantages of AG come from the lowered cost of ingredients, and bigger selection/better control over your product.
 
I brew all grain, my neighbors brew extract and they are new at it. Their beers were OK, but they did one thing that made their beers taste 100% better, and that's temperature control for fermentation. They may never go all grain but by keeping their last 2 batches under 65F while fermenting their beers are as good as most all grain beers I've tried.
 
Right on about ferm. temp. control. My brews improved significantly because of this alone.

This is not as much for taste, but AG can be much cheaper than kits especially if you get into a bulk grain buy where you get 55lb of base malt for $30. Washed yeast and bulk hops can get you a batch of pale ale in the $10 range.
 
Considering that (at my LHBS) 5 lbs of dme is about $20 and 8 lbs of pale malt is about 10, it's a no brainer. You will save a lot of money doing AG and have much more control over the final product. The downside is more work and time. BIAB makes it cheap. Even a converted cooler will pay for itself after 2 batches when compared to the cost of dme.
 
I do both AG and Extract just depending on time..I like being able to brew any recipe with AG but with a two year old running around and trying to squeeze my brewday into naptime I LOVE extract brews. When I have 5 hours to spare I enjoy taking the extra time to make an AG recipe.
 
5 gallon AG batches are averaging me $15-20. What I have brewed so far averages 2-3oz hops 10# grain. Of course were I to do some Imperials my cost would go up a bit, but the cost is quite reasonable. Especially when I'm getting 2 cases of some very good beer. Either way it's a product you produce and enjoy yourself and it's a fun hobby so cost isn't as important.

Although if I can feed my need for good beer while saving money and having fun as well. then it's a win win win situation!

I would say my only complaint about AG is brewing in these ridiculous temps we have seen around here for the last month!!
 
Do what makes you happy. This is just a hobby after all. That said, I look at it like driving a sports car around a racetrack. All-grain is like driving a manual and extract is like driving an automatic. No problem with either, just with all-grain you have a bit more control if you know what to do with it. In the hands of someone who really knows what they're doing, both methods will produce fantastic beer, but I imagine the AG way would be better (control over the fermentability of your wort for example - you don't know what temperature the mash was with extracts. Ray Daniels discusses this in his book.) In the hands of someone who doesn't know as much, the extract way will be easier and yield a better product.

If you're just out there to have fun, that's all that should matter.
 
That's about it bemore. I have fun coming up with new ales from common cans. I'm starting to get some really good ones,all extract at that. I'm not planning on going commercial,So AG is a big if at this point. Not that AG'rs all want to go pro or anything. It's just a lot more steps to get to the same place. I'm finding,as what impressed me from the point of deciding to HB,that extracts can take home the gold too.
I say do whatever style of brewing is fun for you. This is a hobby,after all. We need to get over this elitist attitude some have on here. Live & let brew. (there's a song in there somewhere).
 
I would recommend checking this thread out.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/ag-brewing-taste-differences-general-257061/

I think the Bobby Flay analogy is relatively fair. However the question is whether you would prefer the canned tomato version chili he could make over the fresh ingredients version? My guess is the fresh ingredient version would be the one you grab for. It isn't that one version is bad, just different. You likely will prefer one over the other.

I much prefer my AG to my extract. For me there is a taste to extract that is discernible. However, you really need to try for yourself and decide.
 
Some brewers have even done side-by-side EXTRACT vs. ALL GRAIN batch comparisons, and the latest prevailing experimental evidence seems to suggest that there isn't much difference. More than one side-by-side comparison I saw concluded that the MYTH behind EXTRACT being inferior to ALL GRAIN comes from a few basic facts:

#1: ALL GRAIN brewers tend to use fresher ingredients. Most kits that EXTRACT brewers buy tend to be in hobby shops or LHBS shops that do not turn over these products as quickly as ideal. There is no telling how old the LME in any given kit is, while most grain is fresh and is certainly freshly milled and freshly mashed on brew day.

#2: ALL GRAIN brewers tend to conduct a more seemless brewing process. Though they exist, there are very few EXTRACT brewers with 1+ years of experience. Through they exist, there are very few ALL GRAIN brewers with less than a few batches experience. So your average AG brewer tends to have the process down pact, while your average EXTRACT brewer is still learning and making mistakes. Find a newbie brewer and have him whip up an AG batch, and I'll whip up an EXTRACT batch, and mine WILL be better.

#3: AND THIS IS A BIG ONE: The average ALL GRAIN brewer uses advanced techniques that the average EXTRACT brewer just does not. Things like oxygen infussion into wort pre-fermentation, optimizing their water profile - especially getting a 5.2-5.6 PH and minimizing chlorine, full-volume boils, and the BIGGIE - TEMPERATURE CONTROLLED FERMENTATION. Practicing these advanced techniques, in particular controlling fermentation temps, and you can make an extract batch that rivals an AG batch. It's just the average EXTRACT brewer has already moved on to AG by the time they start doing these things. You are really GETTING SERIOUS by the time you have a temperature controlled cooler or freezer in your living room, and very few people get serious and stick with EXTRACT.

Anyway, hope that helps. It's just by the time you get to where you REALLY know how to brew, most people are ready to take on AG brewing, so you think you are making better brews jsut due to the ingredients, but you leave all of the other factors out.

It's kinda like saying that Bobby Flay couldn't make a world-class chili if you gave him tomatoes in a can. It's mainly the knowledge and skill of the BREWER that determines the quality of the beer, not whether you pre-mash the malt or do it on brew day.
Click to expand...



There are a lot of incorrect assumptions in this post. I have done hundreds of extract batches and I use the same quality controls as an all grain brewer. I oxygenate the wort, adjust my water(A little. I know, with extract there isn't much need.) and have dedicated fermentation chambers for precise temp control. Where the extract comes from is the only difference. That being said, I am starting to brew all grain now. :cross: Just to change things up and besides, I like the "do it yourself" part of building the brewery. I have just about completed my all electric indoor 3 vessel brewery.:ban:
 
First two batches I did were extract and they both had the same kinda "twang," which I'm assuming just came from old extract. I didn't change my process very much at all with my first AG batch, but it came out worlds better.

I would assume the key to good extract brews is fresh ingredients, along with everything else that makes good beer.
 
As one who has brewed extract for years, over 50 batches since getting back. Building a single tier 3 keg system that is taking far too long.

My biggest gripe with extract brewing are the high finish gravity numbers. Even with PM and O2 I can't get it as low as I'd like.

I still make great beer but I know it can be better
 
Idk,ever since I started using small starters,or re-hydrating with a small amount of dextrose,I can get a 1.050 down to 1.010 fairly easy. I've just got a process down that works well for me. Over & above my own extract recipes.
 
I've judged some really terrible AG brews entered in competitions, and some excellent partial mash brews. It's really about process.

That said, sometimes I can taste an extract-y flavor in extract beers. It's not bad, but it's often there. Using techniques like adding any LME at the end of the boil, fresh extract, good water, fermentation temperature control, etc will minimize that and then you get a great beer, even if extract makes up the bulk of the fermentables.

I've never tasted a great all-extract beer, though. Usually, a partial mash or at least steeping some grains, gives some "fresh" flavor and it's really needed.
 
I an drinking my 5th batch. It was a 3 gallon Red Ale (do not have the equipment to do 5 gallon boil). I was going for a partial mash but decided on the all grain 3 gallon instead. This is by far my best tasting brew yet. May be because I am getting better at brewing or the fact that it was a fresher brew (less processed). One thing is fact, it was so much cheaper. Did a starter (cut yeast cost down) the grain bill was under $10.00. These 3 gallons cost me about $17.
 
The three biggest advantages to AG:

1) Price savings (after initial investment) Even more so if you find a local group buy.

2) Flexibility in recipes.

3) The smell of the mash

There is something to be said about the convenience of extract, though
 
You can brew some great beer with extracts and a lot less time and effort on brew day. AG puts you control, or at the mercy, of the grains, which can change many parts of the the finished product. I have several extract recipes I enjoy, I also enjoy the more challanging AG process.
 
In my opinion the challenge with comparing AG vs. LME is that often the processes are totally different.

If you were to use extract, but:

* Could do full boils (vs the standard partial 3 to 3.5 gals), and fiddled with timing of adding the extract
* Did mini-mashes / partial mashes to steep grains (in a bag - adds 60 min to the process before the boil)
* Had an wort chiller to appropriately get the wort chilled before pitching
* Made starters
* Had a fermentation chamber

I think you could make fantastic extract beer. What I found was that as I added the above capabilities to my process, so I naturally gravitated to AG because the only additional equipment I needed was a mash tun, and a little more time (an even then not a lot more time because a partial mash requires time to steep anyway).
 
If you brew a lot, the cost savings with all grain is pretty significant. You can get base malts for roughly 75 to 90 cents a pound if you buy by the sack. I have a couple of SMaSHes in the recipie book that run me about $15 per batch including malt, hops, yeast, and fuel for the burner.
 

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