Please rate my process - 65% Eff on ESB

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goofiefoot

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This is my second all-grain, and while my efficiency was better this time than my first, I'm sure I could do better. Please review:

Recipe:
US 2-Row 10.00 lb 88.9 %
US Caramel 60L 0.75 lb 6.7 %
US Caramel 120L 0.25 lb 2.2 %
Belgian Biscuit 0.25 lb 2.2 %
UK Golding 5.5 % 1.50 oz 26.5 (First Wort Hopped)
UK Fuggle 4.5 % 0.50 oz 4.4 (20 Min From End)
UK Golding 5.5 % 0.25 oz 2.7 (20 Min From End)
Irish Moss 0.25 oz (15 Min From End)
UK Fuggle 4.5 % 0.50 oz 0.0 (At turn off)
UK Golding 5.5 % 0.25 oz 0.0 (At turn off)
DCL S-04-SafAle (1 pkg)

I have a 50-quart Ice Cube cooler with a cPVC manifold. I boil in a 15-gal stainless pot over a propane burner.

I planned to mash 1 hour at 154°. I added 4.28 gallons of 167° water directly to the mash tun then stirred in the grain making sure we had good coverage. I realized after I put the grain in that I forgot the 5.2, so I added it and mixed again. I checked temperature and it held at 153.5, so I shut the lid.

I stirred at 15 minutes, and I found I lost 3°. At 30 minutes, I was still sitting just below 150°, so I added about 2 quarts of boiling water and stirred. This only brought the temp to 151.5°. At 45 minutes I stirred again and the temp was 151°.

After 60 minutes, I added 1.5 gallons of 190° water and stirred. This only brought the temp up to 160°. I went ahead and let it sit for about 5 mins, then vorlaufed until the runnings were clear and let it slowly drain into the pot (about 7 minutes to drain).

I then added 3.25 gallons of 170° water for the final sparge. I stirred well, vorlaufed, and begun draining as slow as the ball valve would allow. I planned for this to drain over an hour, but it was empty at 30 minutes. It also gave me 7.5 gallons of wort, instead of the 6.5 gallons I had planned.

I took the pre-boil gravity and it came out to 1.036 (the expected for 75% eff was 1.048). BeerAlchemy calculated this as 65.7% eff.

I boiled for 80 minutes total to get down to our 5.5 gallon target. I cooled, drained to fermentor, and took the SG - 1.056 (exactly our target). I pitched a pack of hydrated yeast, and had airlock activity within 2 hours.

My first all-grain attempt showed 52% efficiency, but the beer tasted ok. I definitely improved with this one, but again, I think I can do better.

Please take a look and let me know what improvements might bring up my efficiency. Thanks in advance!

Jason
 
I then added 3.25 gallons of 170° water for the final sparge. I stirred well, vorlaufed, and begun draining as slow as the ball valve would allow. I planned for this to drain over an hour, but it was empty at 30 minutes. It also gave me 7.5 gallons of wort, instead of the 6.5 gallons I had planned.

with batch sparging; there's no need to drain slow - in fact, draining faster is better. you add your batch water; stir to get the sugars into solution, and drain as fast as you can.
 
that makes a lot more sense to me now. I drained real slow on my batch last week and got 65% also...

then again it was a 1085 expected og.
 
Hi Jason, have you tried putting a sleeping bag or big blanket around your cooler during the mash? This will help hold your temps a little better.
Also, your target temp for sparging is typically 168* or so. If your grains are sitting at about 160* for your mashout, you will need to sparge with water warmer than 170*.

I ususally add sparge water at about 185* or so in order to get the temp of the grains to 168*.

you can use a mash calculator like this one: http://www.brew365.com/mash_sparge_water_calculator.php to dial in your water additions.
 
I planned to mash 1 hour at 154°. I added 4.28 gallons of 167° water directly to the mash tun then stirred in the grain making sure we had good coverage.

Try this - add your strike water at about 175*F. Stir for a couple minutes and close the lid and let it sit for about 5-10 minutes.

Check you temp (should be about 166*F). You can now dough-in to a pre-heated MLT. Stir for a couple minutes and close the lid. Check it about 5-10 minutes later and it should be ~154*F

(of course this varies slightly with ambient air temp, original cooler temp, and grain temp - but you get the idea).
 
Jason,
Also with the Igloo Cubes there isn't any insulation in the lid. I'd drill a couple of holes and put some spray insulation in there. I did this and only lost 1 degree over an hour.
 
I use BeerAlchemy for all my strike and mash temps and volumes. I realize I may need to tweak these for my set up. My first all grain was a larger volume and I held temp for the entire hour, but I didn't stir near as much (which I figured was why my efficiency was so low).

As you can read in my first post, for my mash out I added 190° water and it only brought me up to 160°. I assume since this was the case, I needed to add warmer water for both my mash out and 2nd sparge?

So, AZ_IPA - would my slow 2nd sparge contribute to low efficiency? Should both my mash-out sparge and 2nd sparge be wide-open drains then? That being the case, how long should I allow my sparge water addition to rest before I drain?
 
So, AZ_IPA - would my slow 2nd sparge contribute to low efficiency? Should both my mash-out sparge and 2nd sparge be wide-open drains then? That being the case, how long should I allow my sparge water addition to rest before I drain?

not neccessarily - but it could. Did you take a gravity and reading of your first runnings? If so, you can see how much your conversion efficiency was.

Also, most batch spargers subscribe to the drain-as-quick-as-possible camp. And many are only doing a single batch sparge (planning for the full volume needed to get to their desired pre-boil volume). I think denny (from this site) has calculated that he was only getting an extra ~2% by doing a double batch.

I, and many others (that I've learned from), will add the sparge water, mix well for a couple minutes, vorlauf and drain wide open.
 
As you can read in my first post, for my mash out I added 190° water and it only brought me up to 160°. I assume since this was the case, I needed to add warmer water for both my mash out and 2nd sparge?

Well, if I'm doing a mashout, I typically add a small amount of boiling water which will get me to 160ish. Sounds like your mashout went as planned.

But then as you drain the 1st runnings, you will lose a few degrees so you may be at only 158* or so when you add your sparge water. To get from 158 to 168*, you will need to add water warmer than 170*.

I do a double batch sparge, so the first addition of sparge water is typically around 185*. I mix it for about 5 minutes, then drain.

Then, add my second addition of sparge water at around 175* or so, stir like hell and drain.
 
I, and many others (that I've learned from), will add the sparge water, mix well for a couple minutes, vorlauf and drain wide open.

Yup. I generally get 78% with a single batch sparge. I drain the first runnings at 1/3 or 1/2 open, then full bore for sparge.

Temperature control has already been touched on, so...
What's your crush like? Where are you getting your grain from? A lot of LHBS have poor crush, so if you're getting grain locally you might have them crush it twice. Brewmaster's Warehouse and Austin Homebrew Supply are two online stores that are well-know around these parts for a good crush and high resultant efficiencies.
 
I don't bother with a Mash out, especially if you are using 1.5qt/lb or more. If you just drained your first runnings then your sparge water at 190F or so would have got your mash up to near the right temps, high 160's.

As others mentioned pre heat cooler and drain fast for a batch sparge.


from Palmer How to Brew:
What is Mashout?

Before the sweet wort is drained from the mash and the grain is rinsed (sparged) of the residual sugars, many brewers perform a mashout. Mashout is the term for raising the temperature of the mash to 170°F prior to lautering. This step stops all of the enzyme action (preserving your fermentable sugar profile) and makes the grainbed and wort more fluid. For most mashes with a ratio of 1.5-2 quarts of water per pound of grain, the mashout is not needed. The grainbed will be loose enough to flow well. For a thicker mash, or a mash composed of more than 25% of wheat or oats, a mashout may be needed to prevent a Set Mash/Stuck Sparge. This is when the grain bed plugs up and no liquid will flow through it. A mashout helps prevent this by making the sugars more fluid; like the difference between warm and cold honey. The mashout step can be done using external heat or by adding hot water according to the multi-rest infusion calculations. (See chapter 16.) A lot of homebrewers tend to skip the mashout step for most mashes with no consequences.
 
Thanks, y'all! This is good stuff!

Most likely I'm going to move to a larger mash tun, so the Igloo insulation shouldn't be a prob. I get my grains crushed at AHB - I should be covered there. No mash out - awesome. Hotter sparge infusion and fast drain - easy enough.

As far as stirring during the mash - every 15 minutes ok, or too much?
 
Every 15 minutes is just fine. Leave it be for about 10 - 15 minutes at the end of your mash for things to "settle out" a bit.
 
Agree with skipping the mashout. Just following your process, you appeared to have either messed up your volumes or you mistyped. If you add 4.28 strike, 2 quarts temp adjust, then 1.5g mashout, that's 6.25 gallons. After absorption, you would have drained about 5 gallons of first runnings. With a 3.25 sparge, your preboil volume should have been 8.25 gallons unless you have a very large dead space in the tun. Did you find that the spent grain was really wet when you dumped it? There's sugar in that wort, which is why efficiency is low.
 
Bobby- Am I understanding correctly? Is this to say that you run the risk of lower efficiency when sparging with more water than needed for the boil and that you should figure that the tun is completely drained after the sparge?

I am relatively new to AG and I've been struggling with the issue that if one mashesat 1.25 qt/lb to 1.5qt/lb then adds to step up for mash out, there is little volume left to use for sparge water. (Typically less than 1 qt/lb making for a stiff sparge.) Is there an ideal ratio for sparging or should sparge volume soley be based on boil volume needed.

I ask because thus far (only 4 bathces into AG) my efficiency has been a bit all over and I'd like to be able to be more consistent.

Thanks.
 
Do you mean you added your sparge water to your mash or your runoff. I am thinking he sparged and is just confused. Now way you mashed with all your water at once.
 
Agree with skipping the mashout. Just following your process, you appeared to have either messed up your volumes or you mistyped. If you add 4.28 strike, 2 quarts temp adjust, then 1.5g mashout, that's 6.25 gallons. After absorption, you would have drained about 5 gallons of first runnings. With a 3.25 sparge, your preboil volume should have been 8.25 gallons unless you have a very large dead space in the tun. Did you find that the spent grain was really wet when you dumped it? There's sugar in that wort, which is why efficiency is low.

I didn't mistype. There was a decent amount left in the cooler after the sparge - not sure if it was 3 quarts worth, but duly noted that I should make sure the cooler drains completely. I simply stopped the flow when I got to 7.5 gallons. By not adding mash out water, it sounds like I should my volumes and efficiency should even out.

Thanks to all for helping me improve my process!
 
Rottn, check this calculator: http://www.brew365.com/mash_sparge_water_calculator.php

For instance, if you are using 12lbs grain, you will need about 4 gallons of strike water at 1.33quarts / lb.
Then you will need an additional 5 gallons of sparge water.

I think BobbyM is saying to skip the mashout. Also, you may want to play with your mash water thickness. for instance doing a couple at 1.33, then try a couple at 2 quarts / lb. of grain.
Document hydrometer readings each time you drain the mlt. Then, check out some of Kaiser's work, like this spreadsheet to help you find inefficiencies in your process: http://braukaiser.com/documents/efficiency_calculator.xls
 
Bobby- Am I understanding correctly? Is this to say that you run the risk of lower efficiency when sparging with more water than needed for the boil and that you should figure that the tun is completely drained after the sparge?
Well... you want to drain the tun as completely as you can. That's good beer stuff in there, after all. It's not a problem to sparge with more water than needed, as long as you actually use it all. This is a common technique for high-gravity beers, and involves a lot of boiling beyond your normal 60 minutes.

I am relatively new to AG and I've been struggling with the issue that if one mashesat 1.25 qt/lb to 1.5qt/lb then adds to step up for mash out, there is little volume left to use for sparge water. (Typically less than 1 qt/lb making for a stiff sparge.) Is there an ideal ratio for sparging or should sparge volume soley be based on boil volume needed.

If you're batch sparging and proceeding quickly to your boil there's no real need to do a mashout. I set my water volumes so that I get a mash and a sparge of approximately equal volume.

I usually shoot for the standard 1.25 qt/lb mash, and sparge with 1qt/lb. When I have a large grain bill, the amount of water I would normally allocate for a sparge is small, so I switch gears and do a mashout with no sparge. I lose efficiency this way (which is fine, because I usually partigyle big beers, but that's another topic), but it's considerably less hassle.
 
goofie, fill your mlt with a gallon or 2 of water, open the drain, when the drain stops pulling water, measure how much water is left in your mlt.

That amount which is left = equipment loss. The water caluculators have a field for you to enter your equipment loss.
 
And then ideally, you want to configure your system to leave as little wort in the tun as possible. In batch sparging, any wort left in the tun kills efficiency (especially the first runnings). If you have to tilt the tun toward the drain, do it.
 
Well, it has happened again.

I was happy with 70% efficiency from my last brews taking the advice from this thread, then I brewed a Dunkelweizen last night and got 56% efficiency. Really? Everything pointed to success.

I preheated the mash tun. I stirred the heck out of the grains to incorporate. I hit and held my mash temp. I achieved 168° for sparge. I got plenty of volume.

My recipe:

Batch size - 5g
Expected pre boil gravity - 1.045 (1.036 actual)
Expected OG - 1.053 (1.044 actual)
Expected FG - 1.013
Color - 15.7
IBU - 15

6.6lb Wheat Malt (62%)
3.3lb Munich Malt (31%)
0.55lb Caramunich II (5.2%)
0.20lb Debittered Black (1.9%)
1oz Hallertauer (60 min)

Mashed at 152° 60 mins at 2qts/gal (5.5 gals)
Sparged 2.5 gals at 168°


I'm thinking I either didn't mash long enough, or the crush from AHS wasn't enough.

Thoughts?
 
Ok, that's about 10.5 total pounds of grain and 5.5 gallons of strike. No problem there.

First runnings collected would be about 4 to 4.25 gallons. Is that about what you collected? If that's the case and you sparged with 2.5 gallons, your total preboil volume would be about 6.75 gallons. Is that what you had?

Did you stir the sparge water in really well?
 
I collected just a hair under 4 gallons from first runnings and that gravity was 1.043.

I stirred the heck out of the sparge.

My preboil amount was about 6.25 gallons.

Is wheat more difficult to convert?
 
I haven't actually started AG yet, but I thought you needed to do a protein rest with that much wheat malt. Am I wrong about that? That might have something to do with it.
 
I boiled for 80 minutes total to get down to our 5.5 gallon target. I cooled, drained to fermentor, and took the SG - 1.056 (exactly our target).

I don't doubt that you could do better on efficiency, and the many previous posts probably answer well to procedural advances. But I am looking at something very simple and straight forward.

If you hit your targets by following your recipe, then you hit your recipe's efficiency*. I think you are confusing yourself with non-relevant data.

*BTW, what brewhouse efficiency was your recipe figured on?
 
How much did you boil down? If you had first runnings at 1.043 and then boiled down to 1.044 then you must not have boiled down to 5 gallons. You have to remember that if you are going into primary with 5.5 gallons then you need to adjust that in your recipe.
Also just so you are aware efficiency is the amount of material you collect not convert. Conversion is the process of changing starch to sugar. When you calculate efficiency it does not matter whether you have sugar or starch it will change the gravity. I am trying to remember off the top of my head but I believe that starch is actually a larger molecule then sugar which would cause your gravity to go higher if you collected more starch then sugars.
Also 2 quarts per gallon is an awfully thin mash. Did you do this on purpose. I always shoot for 1.25 quarts per gallon. I think that is a good thickness for a mash. This will allow you to sparge with a larger amount of water which would allow for a greater extraction of the sugar/starch solution. In how to brew, Palmer recommends sparging with 1.5 times the amount of mash water. So since you mashed with 4 gallons , you should sparge with 6 gallons.
 
i got 60-65% efficiency until i started doing a 3rd runnings.

mash in, drain
add sparge, drain
add sparge, drain

low 70% now

how are you guys draining wide open without disturbing your grain bed?

i have a 5 gallon rubbermaid with a false bottom and brass valve, and if I open that sucker full blast, I get a ton of grain material, even with vourlaufing about 3 liters.
 
DNW - My brewhouse efficiency through BeerAlchemy is set at 70%, which has been working well for me.

DIY - I boiled down to 5.25 gallons, which I have set in my software. I have been mashing thinner with greater success, so I've factored that into my brewhouse efficiency as well.

I'm a bit confused on the the collection v. conversion here. Why would pre-boil gravity, not quantity, be factored into the equation if conversion doesn't matter? Are you saying that unconverted starch may be knocking off my readings? How do I factor in final numbers then?

If my conversion is incomplete (no, I haven't tried the iodine test, and I probably need to), the most logical answer is to mash longer, correct?
 
It sounds to me like you're leaving some wort behind in the mash tun.

You should have gotten more than 4 gallons out of first runnings. I think you have a deadspace issue. Can you take a picture of the inside of your mash tun and post it? You might find it beneficial to prop the cooler up to lean towards the bulkhead drain for 5 gallon batches. You do have like a 2 foot piece of tubing hanging off of your ball valve right? You don't just open the valve and let it trickle right?

Any wort left in the tun, especially first runnings, is an efficiency killer. I have no reason to suspect you're having conversion problems... yet. Next time try taking a gravity reading of your first runnings. That will tell you your conversion or mash efficiency.
 
I forgot to take a photo while I did this, but I filled my mash tun and drained it with a slight tilt. Once it stopped draining, I measured the leftover water - just a hair under 2 cups. Doesn't sound like a lot, does it? Not sure how I could get more out of it short of digging grains out.

As per my earlier post, my first runnings measured 1.043.

I've got 2 brews to do this week, so I'm going to experiment around with my volumes. Thicker mash, larger sparge, etc. I'll report some results.



It sounds to me like you're leaving some wort behind in the mash tun.

You should have gotten more than 4 gallons out of first runnings. I think you have a deadspace issue. Can you take a picture of the inside of your mash tun and post it? You might find it beneficial to prop the cooler up to lean towards the bulkhead drain for 5 gallon batches. You do have like a 2 foot piece of tubing hanging off of your ball valve right? You don't just open the valve and let it trickle right?

Any wort left in the tun, especially first runnings, is an efficiency killer. I have no reason to suspect you're having conversion problems... yet. Next time try taking a gravity reading of your first runnings. That will tell you your conversion or mash efficiency.
 
how are you guys draining wide open without disturbing your grain bed?

i drain wide open and get grain-city.
 
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