RIS ish with Wyeast 9097

Alright here's a question for you, on the recipe below should I mash higher using this yeast? I've read that the "bugs" in the yeast will eat the usually non fermentible sugars. I was also thinking of boiling down the first running like was done in the 11-11-11 old ale? Do you think that's too much?

Also, what's your opinions on the Bramling Cross hops? I have an ounce and thought the black currant in the description would go well with this recipe. What says you? Lastly, do you think the chocolate and black malts are too high?

Recipe: Ol' Russian Ol'perial Stout
Style: 13F-Stout-Imperial Stout

Recipe Overview

Wort Volume Before Boil: 7.50 US gals
Wort Volume After Boil: 5.50 US gals
Volume Transferred: 5.50 US gals
Water Added: 0.00 US gals
Volume At Pitching: 5.50 US gals
Final Batch Volume: 5.02 US gals
Expected Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.058 SG
Expected OG: 1.096 SG
Expected FG: 1.023 SG
Expected ABV: 9.9 %
Expected ABW: 7.7 %
Expected IBU (using Tinseth): 88.7
Expected Color: 38.9 SRM
Apparent Attenuation: 75.0 %
Mash Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Duration: 90.0 mins
Fermentation Temperature: 64 degF

Fermentables
UK Pale Ale Malt 13lb 8oz (70.4 %) In Mash/Steeped
UK Amber Malt 2lb 0oz (10.4 %) In Mash/Steeped
US Chocolate Malt 1lb 0oz (5.2 %) In Mash/Steeped
UK Oat Malt 5.00 oz (1.6 %) In Mash/Steeped
US Roasted Barley 4.00 oz (1.3 %) In Mash/Steeped
US Black Malt 2.00 oz (0.7 %) In Mash/Steeped
Extract - Traditional Dark Dried Extract 2lb 0oz (10.4 %) Start Of Boil

Hops
US Warrior (15.5 % alpha) 1.50 oz Loose Pellet Hops used 60 Min From End
UK Bramling Cross (6.0 % alpha) 0.50 oz Loose Pellet Hops used 20 Min From End
US Warrior (15.5 % alpha) 1.00 oz Loose Pellet Hops used 10 Min From End
UK Bramling Cross (6.0 % alpha) 0.50 oz Loose Pellet Hops used 1 Min From End
US Warrior (15.5 % alpha) 1.00 oz Loose Pellet Hops used At turn off
US Warrior (15.5 % alpha) 0.50 oz Loose Pellet Hops used Dry-Hopped

Mash Schedule
Mash Type: Full Mash
Schedule Name:Single Step Infusion (67C/152F)
Step: Rest at 153 degF for 60 mins

Recipe Notes

The only thing I would change for better predictability would be the dark extract. I'd use plain light DME which you would know is 75% fermentable or whatever the company that produced it specifies. What was you're experience with the 9097 for the 11-11-11? The primary sacch strain took my old ale down to 1.028 and then the brett dropped it another 12 points. So if you figure for between 70% and 75% attenuation with the primary sacch strain at 1.096ish you are looking at 1.024 and 1.029ish for the brett to start with. From there you can go anywhere from 10-12 points it seems. So you are looking at 1.012 or 1.017 after the long secondary fermentation. That should help you determine your mash temp. As I said in the thread I mentioned about using this in an upcoming stout, I had mashed at 158 on the old ale and ended up under 1.020. The percentage of highly roasted malts was low however compared to a RIS.

Unfortunately I didn't do the 11-11-11 beer. I bought the yeast, but didn't get a chance to do the brew. I followed the thread though. I wouldn't mind this beer finishing about .015. I noticed you had a thread after I started this one. What do you plan on having your stout finish at?

Never mind just read your reply to the other thread. I guess finishing that low would make it a little thinner, I'll raise it. I want some body to this. I too am doing a single decoction, my first, so we'll see.

I brewed this up on saturday and did a single decoction to bring the mash temp 158/159. I let that sit a while and then I did a REALLY long boil to bring 12gal of collected runnings down to 7gal. I ended up at 1.127 and then diluted it with some RO water down to 1.117. It's big, and I hope it gets funky.

Cool, I'm curious on how yours goes. I saw that you had a huge blow off. I did too.

Keep posting, I did a similar thing, used s-05 and it stalled out at 1.038, so I just added washed yeast from 9097, really only looking for the brett at this point. A bubble revival indicates to me that there's new activity. I plan on aging mine until about March.

Smokinghole, are you going to dry hop yours? Are you oaking this one, and if so when do you plan on doing it. I'm still in the primary and don't want to move it until I'm ready to put it on the oak. I have hungarian medium toast cubes. I want to use all 3 ounces for 3 months. What says you?

Well it is currently oaking. I have 2oz I think that I soaked in port. Three ounces might be a little much. I'd cut it down to 2-2.5 at most. Hungarian Med toast are my go to oak cubes but I think mine are french because the hungarian were out when I ordered last at morebeer. I'll think about dry hopping closer to when when I get there. This beer is still a long ways away. There is very significant fermentation still at this point in secondary though. I will likely transfer it one more time into a tertiary to get it off the yeast cake.

This is my first time with a beer like this, also my first time oaking. How long would you let it sit on the oak for? Will the port also help sanitize the cubes, or is it just for flavor? How long did you soak it in the port for? Thanks. Actually, I'm quit glad that you're doing this at the same time to help walk me through. hahah

Oak cubes have an extraction time frame of like 9-12 months I think. I tend to go for about six months or more on the oak. With this beer it will likely be in the fermentor with the oak for the entire duration until I bottle it out of tertiary. The port was more for flavor than sanitation. I dumped the port into the fermentor that I soaked the oak in as well. I left it to soak for about two weeks I think.

Cool, sounds like something I'd like to do. How does boiling the oak then soaking them before the secondary? Or would you even bother?

I didn't bother. It's a stout it's not like I'm trying to avoid intense flavors. Everything about this beer is big. Big malt, big roast, high bitterness, high alcohol, and big brett likely. I would boil oak cubes for lighter flavored beers with my plan of this being in the fermentor for a year or so, the rough edges will likely smooth out over time anyway.

Well, I'm soaking 2.25 oz of oak in port. I was going to add the bottle to the Carnot, but it smelled so good I was afraid of ruining it. The bottle us 1.5L. Is that too much to add? I'm af fraud of ruining this thing. How big was your bottle of wine?

I only added the mason jar worth of port I soaked the cubs in, not a bottle worth.

Alright, the oak cubes have soaked for 2 weeks in port, so I transferred to the secondary. I took a gravity reading and it showed 1.024. It smelled slightly roasty, a little winey/sour and had a pretty strong smell of alcohol. There was no noticeable sourness taste yet, it's not very bitter but tasted good, but dry and hot. I hope it ages well and develops some sourness. in about 8-10 months I'm debating dry hopping with Willamette. I have an ounce of leaf hops, but I'm worried about absorption. I have very little beer after the blow off. Do you think that'll be a problem?

It shouldn't be a problem. I did have a lot of loss to trub so I topped it up with an other big stout that I have bottled that never carbed up. I haven't checked since I transferred. After I transfer my dark strong that's going right now I'll check it again.

That's not a bad idea, I look into blending this if I can get time to brew again. Keep us updated, I want to hear how yours is going.

Okay. So I'm drinking my gravity sample right now. Mine is coming along nicely. There is little to no brett presence but the beer is down to 1.032 and it still have fairly active fermentation. Currently it tastes strongly of oak and pure hop bitterness. This is sort of what I wanted at this point. So I'm thinking around the 1 year mark it'll be perfect for bottling.

This beer is going nicely. It's developed a thin white layer with big white bubbles on the top. I take it the brett is working fine. I'm going to wait a while before I take a sample, but I'm still debating a blend with another RIS. Is there a point of no return when it would be too late to blend? Would I have to add more oak? I've never even thought of blending and was wondering if you have any advice?

When you say blend do you mean blend into this stout or blend this into another stout? I only ask because unless you blend into this stout you'll have to wait a long time to bottle or you'd have to keg it.

I'm going to leave it as it is, but I did top it up with a different stout to get it as full as possible.

I may actually take this and blend it myself, but blend it with another stout that I tried to bottle condition that didn't work out for me. So I'd have to transfter out of my 6gal better bottle into one of my 10gal kegs for it to finish up. Then I could just force carb it and bottle from there.

i decided I'm just going to let this go as is. Right now it has a nice layer of funk on it.

I may have to bottle this earlier than I wanted to though.

Nice pellicle. Mine doesn't have a pellicle, it's just happily fermenting away slowly. There is still a very decent amount of CO2 production. Last time I tasted it I couldn't detect any funk, just a roasty, bitter, in your face stout. I will check on it flavor wise and gravity wise again sometime in June. If it seems finished I'll leave it a bit longer and check the gravity again a month later. If it's done I'll bottle it, but I want small bottles not a full 12oz bottle for this beast. That will be the tough part, getting a bunch of small bottles.

Question, I still have this on oak, should I bottle? I ask because if I don't bottle it now, or rack it again, it'll have to sit for another 6 months before I'll be able to do anything to it. Would about a year be too much time on the cubes?

How much oak did you use? I did 4 months on 2oz of oak, and it was too much. I'm waiting for time to correct the issue now.

I did 2.5oz of Hungarian medium toast oak cubes. From what I've read cubes have less surface area than chips so take longer to impart the flavor. Not sure though. Did you use chips, or cubes?

Cubes.

Alright, this is still in the carboy and the pellicle is still on the top. I want to bottle it, but I'm almost afraid to. It's been sitting on the oak cubes the whole time so I hope that didn't mess with it. I haven't even tasted it yet. How do you think I should bottle this? Should I add yeast to it? I'd like to dry hop it, do you think it's worth it at this point. Help me not mess up this old beer.

I think you should certainly add some yeast. USO5 or WLP001 would probably be best. Get a real small starter going by making maybe 500ml of extract 8-12 hours before you bottle for best results. The other option is champagne yeast. Mine got bottled up in september and it never bottle carbonated. I just blended a half case of this years with a half case of last years into a keg popped the tops and blended the two together while the gas was running into the keg. I will hopefully bottle it up tomorrow using a beer gun. Dryhopping wouldn't be a bad idea if you ask me. I will bottle more through the keg and will dry hop that portion once I transfer the new batch into the oak keg. I think you're safe that it won't cause any overcarb issues.

Alright, I'm now getting around to this. I just ordered a corker and some small "Vinnie" style bottles. I did this because I lost so much beer during a huge blow off. Now, I can drink smaller amounts hopefully saving more to age.

Anyway, I'm dry hoping this today. I still have the layer on top. Should I break the layer up before I dry hop, or just add it on top as I would. I'm using Brambling Cross as the dry hop, I also have some leaf Warrior, should I use that too? And how much do you recommend? What do you guys think?

I'll also report back on the taste when I sample this.

Also, I'm using WLP099 for bottling. Not sure why I thought that's what you recommended. It should work fine though.

099 should work fine for you. Mine ended up never carbing up and I think it was because of a lack of viable yeast. I didn't repitch anything hoping the brett would take up the carb. Well it didn't, so I sanitized/purged a 3 gal keg. Then I poured the bottles back into the keg while the CO2 was running through the gas port. My batch for this year is in the fermentor already. I went big this year and did a 15 gal batch by brewing two mashes of it that day.

I'm dry hoping with Bramling Cross. How much would you use? I also took a gravity sample. it finished at 1.020. It smelled really sour, but there was no real sour taste. Actually, it tasted nothing like I expected. I didn't get any particular flavor at all. You could taste the alcohol, but it wasn't hot just warming. The oak didn't shine through and it was bitter but not over powering. It was good though. Reminded me of La Folie in a way, just not as sour. The mouth feel was thin though. I wish it finished higher. I'm thinking of carbing it on the high side. What did you carb yours at?

2.2ish. I had to hit it with high PSI in the keg for a couple days then trim it down. I was in a time crunch to rebottle it for christmas. I hope this years finishes as high or higher than last years. I hit 1.024 I think.

I'd use like an ounce of dry hops, not like its an IPA or anything. Just enough to give some fresh hop flavor/aroma but not enough to be out of place.

I dry hopped with 2oz of Willamette. The Bambring Cross I had was too old. I'm going to let it sit for another 5 days and then bottle.

sudndeth said:

I dry hopped with 2oz of Willamette. The Bambring Cross I had was too old. I'm going to let it sit for another 5 days and then bottle.

Click to expand...

If I were you I'd hand calculate the sugar addition for bottling. Also if you have some on hand I'd use some malt extract to prime and you could throw some maltodextrine in there when bottling to help fill the mouth feel out. The trick with using the malt extract is that compared to dextrose it's typically only 75% fermentable. However with the brett possibly left behind you are looking at closer to 80-90% fermentability from the malt extract. So take that into consideration when calculating priming sugar if you use malt extract.

The reason for hand calculating priming sugar is because most online calculators and programs do not take into account a loss of practically all residual CO2 from the long aging period. I tend to figure for about 0.3-0.4 volumes of residual CO2. So if you want 2.2 volumes you need like 1.8 volumes from your priming sugar. At 4g/l x 1.8 that's 7.2g per liter and if you have 20 L that's 144g total needed. A online calculator will tell you you need much less because based on your (for example) 65F temp it will assume double your realistic residual CO2.

http://hbd.org/brewery/library/YPrimerMH.html

Quick update. I bottled on Sunday. It went pretty smooth, but I had less beer than I calculated for so this may be more carbed than I wanted. No big deal, I like my beers carbed on the high side anyway. Not sure how long this is going to take to carb up, but I'll probably pop one open in a couple of months to see. BTW, I used DME to carb and used the 099.

The dry hop had the perfect balance to it. Good choice.

Awesome good to hear. I have to get my second helping carbed up and rebottled now that I have a CO2 bottle that's full.

This beer is really good. It took a long time to carb up though. I'm talking 4-6 months.

I would have not added the mason jar of port. Just cubes and you could add the port to taste later. It's presence is too upfront. It's good, but too much. Also, it has a nice bitterness on the back end with a little sour note. It seems to increase with time. Not mouth puckering though. The nose is awesome and the carb gave it a nice mouth feel.

It's been cool to see this beer change over the years. I've never put so much work into a batch before. Next time I open one ill post one of the pour.

If it's any consolation, mine was way too port-forward the first year I bottled it, but by year two it was absolutely killer. Just enough to get the fruit, but not bash-you-over-the-head with the port.