Banana vs Cloves

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hopdawg

hopdawg

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Need some expert input here. I've understood that if you want a banana flavour to dominate your Hefeweizen's that you should ferment at the lower end of the temp range, maybe 64-65F and if you prefer cloves then ferment at 68-70F. I read something recently that stated the opposite. Need input.
HD
 
Not an expert, but IM(noob)O... :D

It depends some what on the strain too, right?

I used Fermentis wb06 in a wheat, and I bumped my ambient to 66*F from 62*F after reading the same thing.

I got PLENTY of banana :ban::ban::ban:
So much that after 3 1/2 weeks in primary, I racked to secondary for another 3 weeks. They've been bottled for about 3 weeks and there's still some :ban:, but it's way more balanced. Definitely drinkable. SWMBO likes it.

YMMV :mug:
 
Underpitching + high fermentation temperature -> more bananas.
Overpitching + long (~60 mins) ferulic acid rest at 105F -> more clove.

That's how i see it in my weissbiers.
 
zgoda said:
Overpitching + long (~60 mins) ferulic acid rest at 105F -> more clove.
Click to expand...

That was also backed up in the Jan Feb 2011, Vol. 17, No. 1, Page 21, BYO Style Profile by JZ.

In particular it states: "Mashing at 110 degrees F aid in the hydrolysis of ferulic acid. The yeast use ferulic acid to produce 4-vinyl guaiacol, which is the phenolic (clove-like) flavor compound that is so important in this style..."

To answer the OP, I've only gotten bannana flavors out of Wyeast 3068 when going above 68 degrees F. Due to my set up, I haven't been able to go below that. For my next hefe, (Feb) I'll be doing the 110F reset to get the ferulic acid and see if that helps balance the flavors. I've also been meaning to try out WLP 300 and 380, which I've heard each strain gives a specific flavor.
 
WLP300 == WY3068, exactly the same strain.

The problem with ferulic acid rest is that the wort has to pass the temperatures of protein rest. You have to heat really quickly to not kill too much proteins that are vital to head formation & retention.

Once i got an advice to mash wheat malt separately (for really long time, even 60 mins) at 105F, heat the wort to the temperature of maltose rest, then add barley malt and continue normally.

Even being so smart and educated, i still cann't get proper balance between clove and banana in my weissbiers. ;)
 
zgoda said:
WLP300 == WY3068, exactly the same strain.

The problem with ferulic acid rest is that the wort has to pass the temperatures of protein rest. You have to heat really quickly to not kill too much proteins that are vital to head formation & retention.

Once i got an advice to mash wheat malt separately (for really long time, even 60 mins) at 105F, heat the wort to the temperature of maltose rest, then add barley malt and continue normally.

Even being so smart and educated, i still cann't get proper balance between clove and banana in my weissbiers. ;)
Click to expand...

I never thought about that for the ferulic rest. Will have to give both methods a shot.
 
zgoda said:
The problem with ferulic acid rest is that the wort has to pass the temperatures of protein rest. You have to heat really quickly to not kill too much proteins that are vital to head formation & retention.
Click to expand...
This isn't really an issue with unmalted grains like wheat that have tons of protein, and a protein rest can help some with efficiency when you have 50% wheat. I've done a number of Hefeweizens with protein rests and haven't noticed any head retention issues.

As a sidenote, the Kaiser and I once brewed identical recipes for a Hefeweizen with the difference being that I incorporated an acid rest (95F) while he did not. There was a significant difference in taste, and we both agreed that mine was closer to Weihenstephan (which is what we were shooting for).
 
Baron von BeeGee said:
This isn't really an issue with unmalted grains like wheat that have tons of protein, and a protein rest can help some with efficiency when you have 50% wheat. I've done a number of Hefeweizens with protein rests and haven't noticed any head retention issues.
Click to expand...

I never used unmalted wheat in weissbier, only wheat malt.

I found this advice helpful as my stove is only moderately effective, all heating i can get is ~0.3C per minute so the usual 5 minutes in protein rest range in my case is closer to 20 minutes.

Baron von BeeGee said:
As a sidenote, the Kaiser and I once brewed identical recipes for a Hefeweizen with the difference being that I incorporated an acid rest (95F) while he did not.
Click to expand...

How long was this rest?
 
I have a Hefe going right now with Wyeast 3068. I'm keeping it around 63 to promote more clove. I also added some orange zest at the end of the boil. I'm going formore of a citrusy-clove flavor. I'll keep you posted, since it's only been 2 days!
 
From Wyeast:

YEAST STRAIN: 3638 | Bavarian Wheat™

Back to Yeast Strain List

: A complex alternative to the standard German wheat strain profile. This strain produces apple, pear, and plum esters in addition to the dominant banana character. The esters are complemented nicely by clove and subtle vanilla phenolics. The balance can be manipulated towards ester production through increasing fermentation temperature, increasing the wort density, and decreasing the pitch rate. Over pitching can result in a near complete loss of banana character. Decreasing the ester level will allow a higher clove character to be perceived. Sulfur is commonly produced, but will dissipate with conditioning. This strain is very powdery and will remain in suspension for an extended amount of time following attenuation. This is true top cropping yeast and requires fermenter headspace of 33%.

Origin:
Click to expand...

B
 

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