So I've seen many videos where a stainless steel braided weave hose (from tiolet supply line hose) is used for filtering the grains after mashing/during the sparge. However most use a 12" hose and I am wondering if there is any merit to using longer ss hose (as I've seen 2' and 4' lengths in the hardware store) to prevent clogging or "stuck sparge". Thanks for any input.
Mash Tun with stainless steel braided weave hose
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I would think it depends on the diameter of your mash tun. Not that I'm trying to imply there's some magic ratio or anything. 12 inch doesn't sound like enough to me but considering the way it works I don't believe it's the most efficient method of lautering. How is it oriented? Does it make a loop?
I've got a much smaller braided steel screen, and I've never had a lautering problem. However, I'm considering using John Palmer's method of making a loop of a braided hose as an upgrade. (Either that, or I'll just buy a nice false bottom and a rotating sparge arm...) lol
Most stuck lauters with braid systems occur when the braid gets crushed and mutilated close to where it connects to the bulkhead. If you've got a few inches of uncrushed braid, it will drain fine. Loops and extended lengths just serve to get caught up in your mash paddling activities. If you're trying to fly sparge, it's much better to go with a false bottom or manifold for a more laminar pickup. At least they can stand up to the paddle.
Thanks all. I just didn't want to overkill the technique. As simple as possible works for me. I haven't decided on length but if I go with the 2' or 4' length I will have to coil it around in the bottom of my 10 gal. round beverage cooler.
I toyed with the idea of the 2+foot but I decided to with the girth over length (yeah I said it...) I didn't like the way it coiled. But the braid on the water heater supply line is alot stiffer and for extra support I coiled some copper wire up like a spring and put it inside the line and did the same on the out side
IMNOTL8
Member
I am fairly new to the all grain brewing and I have used info from a number of sites to make my equipment, etc. I made a mash tun from a 10gal igloo cooler with the braided stainless steel hose. I have a 'T' on the inside of the cooler coming in and the hose in a complete circle following the circumference of the inside of the cooler. There is copper wire inside the braid to keep it from crushing so I know that is not causing the slow drainage.
Only having done a few batches I don't know how fast my mash tun should drain... That being said, my mash tun starts flowing great after the mash when I am beginning my vorlauf and the grain bed seems to set, but then the drainage slows to a near trickle and takes forever to drain.
I have tried recirculating, clearing the hose with back pressure, adding water. It always starts out great and then creeps along... Am I doing something wrong or is it typically that slow? I just wonder if the braid is so tight that it filters very fine particles that is causing such a slow drain.
On the positive side, I did a batch last night and using a brewhouse efficiency calculator came up with 87%! And I checked my numbers a few times... I have had great results with my beer, but it just takes such a long time.
WOULD LOVE SOME HELP!
Thanks,
Kevin
Only having done a few batches I don't know how fast my mash tun should drain... That being said, my mash tun starts flowing great after the mash when I am beginning my vorlauf and the grain bed seems to set, but then the drainage slows to a near trickle and takes forever to drain.
I have tried recirculating, clearing the hose with back pressure, adding water. It always starts out great and then creeps along... Am I doing something wrong or is it typically that slow? I just wonder if the braid is so tight that it filters very fine particles that is causing such a slow drain.
On the positive side, I did a batch last night and using a brewhouse efficiency calculator came up with 87%! And I checked my numbers a few times... I have had great results with my beer, but it just takes such a long time.
WOULD LOVE SOME HELP!
Thanks,
Kevin
What he said. Rice hulls add little to the overall cost of a brew (from what I understand), and nothing to the flavor. If they fix your problem, it might be a good way to do it. I have a couple of other suggestions.
1. Check your connections on your mash tun spigot and tubing. If you're getting air bubbles, then you're breaking your siphon in the drain process, and could be slowing things down. Use hose clamps if necessary.
2. What's your crush like? If your crush is too fine (mostly flour), your extraction will be great, but you risk a stuck lauter. This is especially a concern if your crush is mangling the barley husks too much. The best mills crush the starchy part while leaving the husks (mostly) intact. The husks (and rice hulls if you're using them) provide the filter bed for your lauter, and if you've got too fine of a grist, then you're looking at the likely culprit of your stuck sparge.
If adjusting your crush is not feasible (Like if you're using someone else's mill, like the LHBS shop's) then introducing rice hulls will probably solve your problem.
If you don't already have your own mill, I highly recommend it if you're going to be brewing for awhile. Consistency is a wonderful thing, if you create a great "everyday" beer to keep on tap or have bottles around all the time. Getting the same, good crush every time is invaluable. I recommend the Barley Crusher or Rebel Mill. I bought the Rebel myself and absolutely LOVE it.
1. Check your connections on your mash tun spigot and tubing. If you're getting air bubbles, then you're breaking your siphon in the drain process, and could be slowing things down. Use hose clamps if necessary.
2. What's your crush like? If your crush is too fine (mostly flour), your extraction will be great, but you risk a stuck lauter. This is especially a concern if your crush is mangling the barley husks too much. The best mills crush the starchy part while leaving the husks (mostly) intact. The husks (and rice hulls if you're using them) provide the filter bed for your lauter, and if you've got too fine of a grist, then you're looking at the likely culprit of your stuck sparge.
If adjusting your crush is not feasible (Like if you're using someone else's mill, like the LHBS shop's) then introducing rice hulls will probably solve your problem.
If you don't already have your own mill, I highly recommend it if you're going to be brewing for awhile. Consistency is a wonderful thing, if you create a great "everyday" beer to keep on tap or have bottles around all the time. Getting the same, good crush every time is invaluable. I recommend the Barley Crusher or Rebel Mill. I bought the Rebel myself and absolutely LOVE it.
Most of the wort that enters the braid will do so within the first several inches from the bukhead. A short braid 6-12" long will work nearly the same as a long length formed in a loop or figure 8.
As long as you're batch sparging, this is true.
Lazarous
Well-Known Member
Bobby_M said:
+1
By the time I wised up and got a false bottom I had already gone through three braids. There are several techniques that peoria suggest to prevent crushing the braid but I didn't find any of them to work for more than a handful of batches, save yourself the time money and headache and invest the $25 in a false bottom. It's a far superior product
haha...I think I got ya Denny...this is true regardless of batch or fly sparging, hence why the braid is not great for fly sparging....no?
I have a hunch that whenever I see an elaborate braid running around the perimeter of a cooler that the first few inches near the bulkhead are doing most of the work sucking the wort through the path of least resistance.
540perry
Member
I got some great advice on one of these boards for braid reinforcement. I crush finely, often use rye or wheat, and I'd had my share of sticky sparges. Then I bought one of these:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#cadinlnord/9663k27/=hor077
and installed it in the braid. No more crushed braid, and my sparge rips no matter what I mash. Well worth a few bucks to avoid the aggravation. I think it was about $12 with shipping - i couldn't find it in the local hardware or HD.
Be sure to order the stainless spring, not galvanized.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#cadinlnord/9663k27/=hor077
and installed it in the braid. No more crushed braid, and my sparge rips no matter what I mash. Well worth a few bucks to avoid the aggravation. I think it was about $12 with shipping - i couldn't find it in the local hardware or HD.
Be sure to order the stainless spring, not galvanized.
haha...I think I got ya Denny...this is true regardless of batch or fly sparging, hence why the braid is not great for fly sparging....no?
I have a hunch that whenever I see an elaborate braid running around the perimeter of a cooler that the first few inches near the bulkhead are doing most of the work sucking the wort through the path of least resistance.
No, the braid is fine for fly sparging. But you need to configure it to cover the bottom of the mash tun evenly, unlike batch sparging where a single straight piece is fine.
I'm about to brew my 422nd batch withe the same piece of braid. I'm always amazed when I hear people talk about crushing it. I've never reinforced it and I've never had a stuck runoff, although I crush really finely. What the heck are you people doing?
+1 on the fact that stainless braid is not likely to be crushed (unless you're crushing it with the mash paddle). I have almost a hundred brews on my braid. It's used in a RIMS, so I don't have to stir much. I still avoid contacting it with the paddle though.
You just need to be aware of the braid and where it is. I either stir "horizontally", parallel to the braid, or above it. If I feel it, I move the spoon so I'm not contacting it.
540perry
Member
I'm always amazed when I hear people talk about crushing it. I've never reinforced it and I've never had a stuck runoff, although I crush really finely. What the heck are you people doing?
It makes you wonder if all braids are created equal. I've never had a totally stuck mash, but I've had some that required a serious, time-consuming intervention to get things moving again. Especially with rye or wheat.
Even though I stir to the sides and don't touch the braid when I'm mashing, the one I replaced recently looked like a truck-flattened armadillo tail, purely from the weight of the mash. And that happened very early on.
Maybe using one of the bigger (about 1" ID water tank) braids would solve that.
My results so far with the spring reinforcement make me think, hmm, as many complaints as we hear about stuck mashes, why not just add the spring/copper coil from the get-go?
I would think just the opposite. A smaller braid would be under less pressure per unit area.
I wonder if bed depth has anything to do with it? I have a rectangular cooler with a shallow bed, and I've never had a problem.
All braids are not created equal, and my experience is that using a larger diameter doesn't help. I'm about to start running some experiments with different braids. I hope to be able to recommend a particular readily available brand and part # by the time I'm done.
Doesn't make any difference in my experience.
I use a 10 gallon round cooler and a 30" braid. I used to have a 5 gallon with a 12" braid and experienced a few stuck mashes. No problems with the 30 incher, even with wheat and rye.
Bob
snap1042
Member
I learned a couple things on this that may help. Bed depth does matter but only if it exceeds 10" deep or so. The thinner the braid (I.e. less than a 1/2 inch) can be crushed so a 1/2 inch seems to be what the cool kids are doing.
Also, Palmer talks about the braid needing to be uniform on the bottom as best possible as that affects the fluid-dynamics of the mash getting out of the tun (in other words, coiling extra line isn't any more productive).
I had a stick sparge yesterday -- my first. Classic solutions to the stuck sparge did not work. When I got the mash out, I discovered that my paddling the mash pulled the braid up from the bottom of the tun. When I placed the braid back to the bottom, the stuck sparge was solved.
I am not a scientist so i have no idea why that mattered but I can't argue the cause and effect of it.
Hope that helps.
Also, Palmer talks about the braid needing to be uniform on the bottom as best possible as that affects the fluid-dynamics of the mash getting out of the tun (in other words, coiling extra line isn't any more productive).
I had a stick sparge yesterday -- my first. Classic solutions to the stuck sparge did not work. When I got the mash out, I discovered that my paddling the mash pulled the braid up from the bottom of the tun. When I placed the braid back to the bottom, the stuck sparge was solved.
I am not a scientist so i have no idea why that mattered but I can't argue the cause and effect of it.
Hope that helps.
I use a 3/8 braid....never crushed in 422 batches.
Palmer is talking about fly sparging. For batch sparging it doesn't matter.
Palmer is talking about fly sparging. For batch sparging it doesn't matter.
ive been using an 18" long, 3/4" diameter hose in a unique configuration born of frustration and miscellaneous parts laying around. i just lined it with 3/8" silicone tubing to prevent collapse and it has worked great for 5 AG batches, both fly and batch with over 80% efficiency. i had to anchor it down a bit with a brass fitting and a zip tie towards the rear of the manifold to keep it from floating up in the mash. i know a false bottom would have been easier, but i was determined to make a SS set-up that worked.
IMNOTL8
Member
Some great responses, thank you! Wanted to add a picture of my mash tun and add some more information I should have included in my previous post.
I do have a wound copper wire inside of my braid.
If you notice, I have separated the braid into two halves with a coupling in the middle to add a little weight to keep the braid on the bottom.
I do not crush the grains at home; I use the mill at the LHBS. It does not seem to be excessively fine.
My last batch was a kolsch. It had about 2.5lbs of white wheat. But the mash drained about the same as my previous batch. Fast at first and very slowly after the initial couple of quarts. I have not used the rice hulls. I actually meant to but forgot to purchase them...
I believe my braid is 1/2" or 3/8". I can't remember...
I do have a wound copper wire inside of my braid.
If you notice, I have separated the braid into two halves with a coupling in the middle to add a little weight to keep the braid on the bottom.
I do not crush the grains at home; I use the mill at the LHBS. It does not seem to be excessively fine.
My last batch was a kolsch. It had about 2.5lbs of white wheat. But the mash drained about the same as my previous batch. Fast at first and very slowly after the initial couple of quarts. I have not used the rice hulls. I actually meant to but forgot to purchase them...
I believe my braid is 1/2" or 3/8". I can't remember...
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I would make the circle a little smaller so it was exposed on all three sides to your grain bed. It looks like it gets smushed up against the sides of the bucket. My MT is a rectangle with a straight braid, never had any problems.
IMNOTL8
Member
I thought I might add this tip... I got my 10 gallon igloo cooler at Wal-mart.com http://alturl.com/atxer for $39.98. The exact same cooler on the Igloo company website is $77.99!
Another question for everyone... Due to the drain hole being about 1 inch above the bottom, do you have a lot of dead space in the bottom? I mine with just water until the siphon action stopped and had almost 80oz of fluid left!
Another question for everyone... Due to the drain hole being about 1 inch above the bottom, do you have a lot of dead space in the bottom? I mine with just water until the siphon action stopped and had almost 80oz of fluid left!
you could either add a 45* elbow or just don't worry about it. By the final sparge you're leaving behind very thin wort. Adjust your sparge water volume accordingly so you have enough. I always prepare more sparge water than I need.
I leave about 1 1/2 qts. with a 10 gallon round and SS braid. A little slower draining allows more wort to drain from the grain.
Bob
This is true, before siphon is broken more liquid can settle to the bottom.
jeepinjeepin
Well-Known Member
If you can connect a hose that extends below the bottom of the MLT it will drain more completely before it loses the siphon. This does nothing to combat the slow settling of liquid from the grain column. Sparging slower will help that some.
brewyourown4life
Well-Known Member
Started with a 16 inch braid for my first few batches, cut it down to 8 inches and it still works great. have a coil of copper wire inside to to prevent any damage during the stirring process, and i stir pretty aggresively. i only sparge slow when i do a pumpkin ale otherwise once it runs clear, wide open baby
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The only time I have had an issue with my braid was when I brewed with a pump for the first time. I recirculated waaaay too fast and it crimped the braid. Since then I haven't had any issues. We get 84% eff with a hwh supply hose about 2" diameter and runs just straight across the mash tun (converted keg). Some day we will get a false bottom but I am happy with 84%.
JordanThomas
Well-Known Member
Does anyone have any recommentations for getting rid of some of the braid threads sharp ends? I used a dremel to get rid of the fittings on my braid, but the ends are really sharp. I'd like to prevent getting cuts cleaning the tun, so any tips would be awesome.
jeepinjeepin
Well-Known Member
JordanThomas said:
A second hose clamp or wrap in copper wire.
A decent pair of scissors will trim the end of a frayed braid...the stainless wires are so fine the trim pretty easily w/ scissors.
