cloudy/flat seltzer (using motorized carbonator)

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gromfy

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I just installed a home seltzer setup with a motorized carbonator (McCann's Big Mac) and a 3-gallon corny stored in a fridge. I hooked it up last night and forced out all of the oxygen from the keg with C02. Then I let water into the system, filled up the keg, and let it chill overnight. It's at about 38 degrees right now; it will get to about 33.

When I just tried dispensing, it came out cloudy. The cloudiness passed quickly in the glass, but left relatively flat water. Any ideas as to the cloudiness and flatness?

I'm at 30 psi on the regulator, which may be too low. Or it may be that the water isn't cold enough yet. Or maybe I need to bleed out the first batch of water?

Any insight appreciated. Thanks!
 
I just installed a home seltzer setup with a motorized carbonator (McCann's Big Mac) and a 3-gallon corny stored in a fridge. I hooked it up last night and forced out all of the oxygen from the keg with C02. Then I let water into the system, filled up the keg, and let it chill overnight. It's at about 38 degrees right now; it will get to about 33.

When I just tried dispensing, it came out cloudy. The cloudiness passed quickly in the glass, but left relatively flat water. Any ideas as to the cloudiness and flatness?

I'm at 30 psi on the regulator, which may be too low. Or it may be that the water isn't cold enough yet. Or maybe I need to bleed out the first batch of water?

Any insight appreciated. Thanks!

WOAH... 30 on a carbonator isn't enough. You are supposed to run those at 80 to 100. You also want to follow the instructions on how to "charge" the carbonator itself. Basically you need to bleed the whole tank with water until it comes out of the relief valve (with the gas off).... close the valve.. and then turn on the gas at 80 to 100 PSI.
 
Wow....80-100 psi? I know for most forced carb seltzer it's between 30-50. I did bleed the tank as you suggested, but had no idea to use such high pressure. Part of the issue is that I bought the carbonator newly refurbished. It's in fantastic shape but didn't come with use instructions -- and, surprisingly, official instructions have been hard to find on the internet.

Thanks for the insight. I'll keep poking around for more complete instructions -- and will crank up the PSIs!
 
The issue is that they work differently than a keg force carbed at 30 PSI.

The Carbonator Unit

The McCanns carbonator unit is common to all these approaches, so let me describe that first. It works on a somewhat different principle than my bottle method. It merges warm tap water and higher-pressure CO2 into a continuous flow of warm carbonated water. The unit consists of an Proconn electric water pump, a stainless steel pressure vessel with electronic water level control, and associated connections and check valves. The bottom half of the pressure vessel contains water; the top half is initially purged of air and thereafter contains only CO2 gas. You set the CO2 regulator to supply about 100 psi, which maintains the same pressure in the vessel. The pump boosts the tap water pressure from the utility supply (typically about 60 psi) to something higher that will inject water past a check valve and into the 100 psi vessel. An electronic level control monitors the amount of water in the vessel and turns on the pump to maintain the water level as soda is withdrawn. The soda output is removed from the bottom of the vessel via a dip tube. Connections are through 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch stainless flare fittings welded into the sides of the pressure vessel, and a brass flare fitting on the pump inlet. An overpressure relief valve on the tank ensures that if the CO2 pressure became dangerously high (such as from a stuck-open CO2 regulator) that the tank would not catastrophically explode.

The large area of interface between the gas and liquid in the pressure vessel, and the high pressure of CO2, result in rapid dissolution of CO2 into the water, even at room temperature. The equilibrium of this solution, given the high pressure of CO2, is above the target 4 volumes of CO2 despite the room temperature operation. In the improvised bottle method, we use chilling and agitation to rapidly carbonate; in the carbonator machine we use high pressure and a larger area.

To maintain the carbonation at the ultimate delivery pressure, you must lower the temperature of the liquid after it flows from the carbonator vessel but before dispensing it to atmospheric pressure. Chilling is absolutely critical to dispensing carbonated beverages. Dispensing at room temperature results in an instantaneous loss of nearly all the carbonation ("warm soda is flat soda") due to the agitation of passing through the valve. Thus one uses a "flash" chiller to lower the temperature of the flowing seltzer just before it reaches the dispenser valve.

Carbonators are inherently more efficient in their use of CO2 than the bottle or keg methods. All of the CO2 consumed is delivered in the beverage without waste. The headspace of the carbonator vessel is purged of air when the system is started, and never is opened to the atmosphere to spoil that purge or to waste the headspace gas. Filling is more or less a continuous replacement of the draw, so that CO2 is not wasted into an emptying bottle or keg.

McCanns makes several models of carbonators, but the most common seems to be the "fast-flow" model with a 2-gallon stainless pressure vessel and a capacity that can keep up with a big 6-flavor fountain. Their smaller models have (you guessed it) slower flow rates but ought to be fine for home rates of use. There are also other carbonator manufacturers like Selmix, Lancer, Cornelius, FHPC, and Servend, but McCanns seems by far to be the most popular.

Being connected to the public water supply, to be legal, the carbonator pump must incorporate a backflow preventer. Watch out for older and used models, which may be obsolete in not having this feature.
from http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm


Also.. instructions for the McCann's are here...
http://us.manitowocbeverage.com/docs/uploaded/mbs/us/mccanns/carbonator_install.pdf

I have the same one.
 
Eric,

Thank you so much for the information and links. Enormously helpful.

Does 100 psi into the carbonator mean the mixed/carbed water will be at 100 psi?

I ask because that's exceptionally strong. Indeed, when I tried it at 100 psi, the relief valve on the corny started releasing water. (It's rated for 130, right!?!) And after I got that worked out, my Perlick (525ss, I believe) leaked in its closed state. Either my C02 gauge is off, or that's just too much dispensing pressure.

So, I backed it off to 80, purged the system, and tried again. Nothing seems to be leaking, but it sure dispenses violently at 80. I just ordered 25' of dispensing line that should tame that some. But am I missing something? Should the carbed water really be at that pressure? Do I need a secondary regulator or anything else to back it off after the McCann's?
 
Yes... the seltzer will be at 100 PSI. I generally run mine at 80 PSI. As far as the relief valve... it should be up at 120PSI or so. I replaced mine and made sure there were absolutely no leaks. These are designed for soda fountains and not beer. Personally I used 1/8" braided line to dispense so I didn't need 60' of 3/16"... I would try running at 80 PSI and use some 1/8" line. I got it from McMaster, if you want the number I can go grab it.
 
Thanks. Sounds like I'm nearly there, then.

You were able to get 1/8" ID line onto the ball connect on the keg? It seems like that'd be tough...and especially at the end of my perlick shank.

In your setup, at 80 psi, how would your characterize the bubbles? We're after BIG. We used to do five squirts on our sodastream.

Thanks again!
 
Thanks. Sounds like I'm nearly there, then.

You were able to get 1/8" ID line onto the ball connect on the keg? It seems like that'd be tough...and especially at the end of my perlick shank.

In your setup, at 80 psi, how would your characterize the bubbles? We're after BIG. We used to do five squirts on our sodastream.

Thanks again!

No to the ball lock... I used a MFL Ball Lock and 1/8" Barb to FFL Swivel Nuts.

Not sure how I would describe them... soda like? Pretty small.
 
No to the ball lock... I used a MFL Ball Lock and 1/8" Barb to FFL Swivel Nuts.

So, on the keg side it would be this:
http://www.kegman.net/products/Ball-Lock-Liquid-Disconnect-%2d-8092.html
and
http://www.kegman.net/products/SS-1{47}4FFL-x-1{47}8-I.D.-Hose-Swivel-Nut-Assembly-%2d-9900.html

I've having trouble finding braided 1/8 on McMaster. If you do have that number, I'd be much obliged.

Then I just need to figure out how to get from the perlick 7/8 barrel to 1/8". That's a bit tougher....

Thanks again for all the help!
 
So, at 80 psi (after purging the lower pressure water), there's still not much carbonation in the water. (It's less than, say, Perrier, which has very little carbonation.) That may be a result of something lost in the violent dispensing that will be solved when my extra line/fittings arrive. But I also sense a slight metallic taste. Might that suggest the presence of oxygen in the system and that I didn't purge it well enough? Everything is either stainless or food safe rubber/plastic, I sanitized the keg before using it, and the tap water is running through a new undersink inline filter. Something just doesn't seem right....
 
do you have a good check valve in the water line to your carbonator? you should have a check valve before the inlet to the pump, and it can't contain any brass or copper. some health departments require a double stainless-steel check valve before the carbonator to meet health codes.
 
I do not have a stainless check valve in the water line. There's a plastic ball valve between the filter and the carbonator. Of course, there' a stainless steel check valve in the carbonator. It's a McCann's Big Mac.
 
glad you bump this because when I was pretty confused with these machine using such a high psi vs force carbing where you only use 30-45 for soda. An earlier post says seltzer water carbonated at 100 psi on this machine comes out at 100 psi ? How is that even possible ? Wouldn't it have way too much carbonation ?
 
The directions state to normally run at 100psi and if that is too much set it to 80-90psi.
glad you bump this because when I was pretty confused with these machine using such a high psi vs force carbing where you only use 30-45 for soda. An earlier post says seltzer water carbonated at 100 psi on this machine comes out at 100 psi ? How is that even possible ? Wouldn't it have way too much carbonation ?
 
Hoping this thread is still active. I have my McCann's setup and pumping to a 1.75 Gal refrigerated keg. When I dispense from the keg using a simple ball valve on a 1/4 inch line, there is still very little carbonation in the dispensed, though cold soda. If I open the keg and just scoop water out, it is super carbonated, the way I like it. It seems that dispensing at 100 PSI thought a small orifice kills the carbonation way more than I want regardless of temperature. Is there a way to correct this? Would he help to use a pressure regulator and drop the serving pressure down? Not sure what would happen to the low side line if I went form say 100 to 50 PSI? Seems like it would to result in gas in the line with the pressure reduced by half. I'm not sure it would help.
 
Hoping this thread is still active. I have my McCann's setup and pumping to a 1.75 Gal refrigerated keg. When I dispense from the keg using a simple ball valve on a 1/4 inch line, there is still very little carbonation in the dispensed, though cold soda. If I open the keg and just scoop water out, it is super carbonated, the way I like it. It seems that dispensing at 100 PSI thought a small orifice kills the carbonation way more than I want regardless of temperature. Is there a way to correct this? Would he help to use a pressure regulator and drop the serving pressure down? Not sure what would happen to the low side line if I went form say 100 to 50 PSI? Seems like it would to result in gas in the line with the pressure reduced by half. I'm not sure it would help.
Well I was reading and am working on my own seltzer water setup with a cold plate in ice fed by a carb machine. and will be going with one of these dispensers. https://www.kegman.net/categories/S...ain-Dispensers-&-Syrup-Pumps/Pre-Mix/Plastic/
 
Hoping this thread is still active. I have my McCann's setup and pumping to a 1.75 Gal refrigerated keg. When I dispense from the keg using a simple ball valve on a 1/4 inch line, there is still very little carbonation in the dispensed, though cold soda. If I open the keg and just scoop water out, it is super carbonated, the way I like it. It seems that dispensing at 100 PSI thought a small orifice kills the carbonation way more than I want regardless of temperature. Is there a way to correct this? Would he help to use a pressure regulator and drop the serving pressure down? Not sure what would happen to the low side line if I went form say 100 to 50 PSI? Seems like it would to result in gas in the line with the pressure reduced by half. I'm not sure it would help.


Did you ever find an answer to this? I'm having the same issue, would like highly carbonated water. Running 100 PSI 34f temperature water, but its only midly carbonated.
 
I could use this solution too. 3/8 line the water has too high velocity and its fla .
 
I am using a McCann's Big Mac Carbonator that is contained inside a keezer. The output is connected directly to a vintage soda fountain seltzer tap. CO2 pressure is set to 105 pounds. The carbonation is good but the dispensing can be a little strong if you are not careful with controlling the handle.
I am thinking of adding a flow control valve in the dispensing line.
In-Line Flow Control Compensator
 
Did you try this? I have a Mc Cann setup as well. No keg though. Seltzer come out with force and would like it more carbonated. I’m a 3/8” outlet line.
53DF9734-698E-4298-BCCD-63AC9B129108.jpeg
 
Been lurking these forums for info for a while. Thank you to the lots of helpful people sharing around here.

I recently setup a McCan's BigMac and thought I would share some experience and info. Since you have to carb at 100psi (I card at 110) you will need to lower the pressure when you dispense. The best ways to do this without knocking the co2 out of solution is to use a compensator or a lot of tubing. CM Becker makes xan inline compensator and some tap facets with compensators built in that are designed to dispense without knocking the co2 out. These are ideal because you can dial in your desired dispense pressure/flow rate.

Second thing I'm seeing here is people talking about having the BigMac feed a refrigerated keg. I think the main problem here is you are fighting the ideal gas law (p=nrt). Since you are carbing water at room temp and then filling a refrigerated keg the lower temp keg water is now at a lower pressure and the co2 could be falling out of solution while it sits there and then dispensing flatter than you expected. Ideally, I think you want to use a chill plate to flash chill the water after carbing so the co2 doesn't have time to fall out of solution. Or you could eliminate the refrigerated keg and move the carbing tank into the fridge so you carb cold water (this would let you carb at lower pressure too!). Or you could maybe put a check valve between the carb tank and the keg and then hook the keg up to your co2 to keep it at the same pressure as the carbing tank 🤷‍♂️ Although that sounds like a lot of extra work and complexity and it may not even work the way you expected 🙃

Third, if you want super fizzy water you need to keep the pressure high and the temp low for as long as possible before it reaches your cup. The lower the temperature you carb at the higher the pressure you can set your co2 regulator to give you more fizz. You also want to be careful to use equipment/parts that don't cause the co2 to fall out of solution. Often times people use flow control tap faucets designed for beer (perlick) or on/off valves cracked partly open in the system after carbing to control flow rate. This usually results in less fizzy water.

Hope all this helps! Here is a youtube video of a rather energetic man talking in detail through a pretty ideal seltzer water setup. He includes a parts list too.
 
Great video. Wish I had this earlier in my adventure. This has been a long process for me and I’ve learned a ton.
Lessons learned:
1. The Carbonator must be located close to the faucet. A long run of dispense line will gas. Lengthy tubing causes pockets of CO2 to exhaust while flowing/dispensing. Flow controls and pressure controls like the ones mentioned in past replies do not work. They actually exacerbate the issue separating the CO2 from the water as they pass through. I’ve tried both. My 20# tank is still located in the basement but I have the carbonator under the sink, within two feet of the faucet. I have laminar flow now.
2. As the video linked above points out, do not use PVC or vinyl tubing from a hardware store. The higher the pressure the more foul the taste. I thought it might of been the brass cap I was originally using to seal the second outlet. I ordered a 316L stainless cap from eBay but that did not correct the putrid flavor.
I did not use bev seal tubing partially because I could not source it without having to purchase commercial quantities. I believe bev seal has lower psi rating but the same company makes a similar tubing that has a higher rating. The company the guy references might carry it. I did use a Saint Gobain tubing from McMaster. The tubing is food grade and is made without plasticizer so it will not impact taste. I can attest that this tubing works on 100psi carbonated line and does not affect flavor. Read the description in the link. I had such a bad experience with hardware store line that I also plumbed the CO2 side with the same tubing. Sounds like this might be overkill.
3. I went from a CO2 regulator with CGA-320 coupling to nitrogen regulator with a CGA-580. I bought an adaptor from amazon for $13. The nitrogen regulator I had laying around and it’s capable of regulating a substantially higher PSI.

The video you posted is the best video that I’ve seen to date. He even hits on purging and the air and full charging the tank with CO2 before forcing the initial water in. Anyone else interested in installing a CO2 tap should be able to find their way to some on demand bubbly relatively easy now. Good luck!
 
Has anyone tried to bottle their seltzer?

I tried connecting my Big Mac to my counter-pressure filler and the flow was too fast and violent.

Thinking about trying out this guy: In-Line Flow Control Compensator | MoreBeer

I hope this helps to reduce flow/pressure to a better bottling PSI.

Any advice would be welcome!
 

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