Mk-i

I decided to start a thread just on this topic. Hopefully things wont be so confusing. I should have started this thread a while ago. Sorry for the delay.


I built a Flash Boiler using Kladue's design. I built mine using copper tubing instead of SS. That build can be seen here. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/flash-boiler-153116/


The MK-I is Kladue's and my latest project. The idea behind it is that the brewery will have a single heat source and it will instantly heat both strike and sparge water when needed. Hot gases from the boiler can be vented outside and indoor brewing would be possible without being asphyxiated. It will use superheated steam for mash temp infusion and then will use steam for the kettle to boil. Since it instantly heats both strike and sparge water there is no need for a HLT. In the other thread is where I started trying to boil using the Flash Boiler as a heat source. The first idea was to use an old immersion chiller I had made out of 3/8" copper tubing. Things didn't go to well with the two different tests I did using that tubing. Looking back on that I don't see why it wouldn't work using the 3/8" tubing, I didn't have things setup right when using the 3/8". Oh well. So another copper coil setup was built and bingo, I got a boil. Now things are moving in another direction. Klade and I are designing a scaled down version of a calardria. Kladue is the brains and I am just the guy putting it together.

Here is a link where you can check out the idea of the calandria.
http://www.geabrewery.com/geabrewery/cmsresources.nsf/filenames/Jetstar_E.pdf/$file/Jetstar_E.pdf

I have been holding on to a brand new keg for about 5 years now. I have been waiting for the right build. I think now is the time. I cut out the top and cleaned it up to get it ready for the new life it has ahead of it.


The new calandria is made of 3.5" OD 304-304L SS tubing. I actually had to weld two pieces together cause I didn't have just one piece long enough for the job. The reduction is a piece of 321 SS from work. The cone is a piece of 718 Inconel from work. The hat is from the top of the keg. In these pics all the pieces are just sitting in place. There is a tube inside that the cone piece is sitting on for the pics. That is a 12" ruler.



This is about how things will be in the Keggle. This is being built to run 10 gallon batches.

This is probably the coolest build on here! Do you know which breweries use the Jetstar?

Most impressive. Do you plan on welding it together or making it threaded for ease of cleaning? I take it you will have 2 fittings in the bottom of the keg to pass the steam through?

pickles said:

This is probably the coolest build on here! Do you know which breweries use the Jetstar?

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No, I don't. I am gonna look now though. You have me interested.

beerthirty said:

Most impressive. Do you plan on welding it together or making it threaded for ease of cleaning? I take it you will have 2 fittings in the bottom of the keg to pass the steam through?

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The main section will be welded together so the steam chamber and the exchanger tubes will be sealed and separate. The end plates are being laser cut now. I hope to get them soon.

The top "hat" section will most likely have a fitting it screws into for clean ability. Other then that it wont need to be taken apart any further. The tubes will be cleaned using a bottle brush and the rest can just be washed. The way I plan on welding the top to the cone and the input line it should be totally sealed so just the outside needs a washing.

"I think" on this one I am going to run the steam input down through the top. My thinking is this will give me a couple things. 1. the input line can have the fitting on it to secure the hat section to the main body. 2. It will reduce the opening size a little more so the boiling wort will want "out" with more force. Keep things nice and hot in the exchanger. Also since I have already boiled using the copper coils, I noticed the input line during the boil. Since it came in from the top, the water around it also boiled and it boiled first at the surface. Allowing boiling action inside the reduction area as well. Since I am not going to pressurize the kettle like they do on the Jetstar I am hoping this will help to get more close to their process.

The other reason I don't really want to come in with the steam from the bottom is the chance of steam condensing in the delivery line. My boiler has some height to it and I would then have to run the steam line down and then back up. My fear is this would create blockage with the condensate. That would create pressure buildup till the blockage was cleared and I believe it would rob precious energy from my steam. When running the boil, the beauty of this system is very low pressure and very low water volume. I don't want to increase the pressures any more then they are. Which is 5 psig. During the mash the superheated steam will run 0 psig.

This is so frickin' cool I don't know what to say... well other than this is SO FRICKIN" COOL!!!!!!

Very impressive. I'm excited to see how this comes together.

wow...... that is the coolest build I have seen for homebrew by leaps and bounds. Well done sirs.

beautiful. Subscribed.

Looks a heck of a lot like the Steinecker Merlin boiler that New Belgium uses. I was wondering when someone would tackle a downscale for homebrewers.

sweet can't wait to see it finished an in action!

Thank you everybody.

Ok, I got the cone welded to the hat. I welded it together in the purge chamber at work.




This is a shot of the inside of the cone. I am just showing how little discoloration I got.




Edit: This is my plan on getting the steam to the calandria. Steam IN through the top and condensate OUT the bottom.

Dayum Monti, you do beautiful work.

Prosted and subscribed! Bravo!

If this is successful, you might have a market...

Count me in for this one... I'm pulling up a seat.
Looking forward to viewing the progress!!!

I have never seen a weld look like that! It's almost as if its made from one piece of metal!
Subscribed

pickles said:

I have never seen a weld look like that! It's almost as if its made from one piece of metal!
Subscribed

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Fusion welded and sanded smooth. The man has talent, no doubt. But 2 exclamation marks may be a bit much

Prost! and fantastic work, Monti. Inspirational.

With work that nice I am going to have to check into getting it electropolished when done like we do for ultra pure water SS fabrications, solves 2 problems at once, passivation and surface finish. How about co-axial steam condensate feed from the top to make it possible to flex line connect over the top, or through the side of the keg with steam and condensate in/out bottom of calandria with the tubing supporting it.

I welded the pipe to the end of the cone today. Once I got it all done I didn't like it. So I cut it off and have a new plan of attack. I should get part of it welded up tomorrow. All the parts are prepped and ready to go. I will hopefully have something to post tomorrow.

Thank you all for the kind words. Glad your enjoying the build.


klyph,
Close. That was a fillet weld. I didn't like the idea of just a fusion on that piece. The cone is made of .013" thick 718 inconel. I didn't want anymore thinning of the material then I have now. They weld together fine but they would rather stick to the same group if you know what I mean.

Edit: What the heck happened to my forum jump???

The craftsmanship in this is outstanding. I am a mechanical engineer and do good work in a machine shop, but that is just stunning. I am following this and am really looking forward to seeing where this goes.

So, if I have the idea correct, it works like this:
1. Steam is injected into the core of the cylinder
2. The surrounding wort or water is heated and rises
3. This causes circulation to start
4. When boiling occurs, this will cause enough expansion to spray it onto the underside of the hat and cause even more circulation, and fast and complete evolution of unwanted things (dms precursor, etc).
Am I missing anything major?

Will the hat be submerged under the surface of the wort? If not, is aeration a concern?
Will you be recirculating steam, or will it only go through once and be exhausted?

Joshua

I don't know what you're building but it is sweeeeeeet! haha Very cool, can't wait to see how it turns out, as usual you're taking things to the next level.

Very nice looking weld!

Birdgunner said:

I don't know what you're building but it is sweeeeeeet! haha Very cool, can't wait to see how it turns out, as usual you're taking things to the next level.

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I'm with this guy. I am hoping that I can figure out what you are doing before you show it in action...

jfkriege said:

The craftsmanship in this is outstanding. I am a mechanical engineer and do good work in a machine shop, but that is just stunning. I am following this and am really looking forward to seeing where this goes.

So, if I have the idea correct, it works like this:
1. Steam is injected into the core of the cylinder
2. The surrounding wort or water is heated and rises
3. This causes circulation to start
4. When boiling occurs, this will cause enough expansion to spray it onto the underside of the hat and cause even more circulation, and fast and complete evolution of unwanted things (dms precursor, etc).
Am I missing anything major?

Will the hat be submerged under the surface of the wort? If not, is aeration a concern?
Will you be recirculating steam, or will it only go through once and be exhausted?

Joshua

Click to expand...

Thank you for the complement.

Yes, You have it pretty much right on. When the steam gets inside the core of the cylinder, it will surround 20 1/2" tubes.

No, I will not have the hat submerged. I plan on recirculating the steam on the boil end. I have a 5 gallon sanke keg that I plan to use as the tank. When I do my test runs I will just exhaust the condensate. I will also use steam for the mash infusion, but that will be direct injection with no heat coils. This way I will get instant temp boost in the recirculating wort. (Like a RIMS)

I can't say I am concerned about the aeration. This setup is going to be very close to the way the big boys do it. As mentioned earlier about the Merlin method being used by New Belgium. There system is very close to the Jet star I posted. I personally think some things are stressed over a bit much. Any gas exchange in liquid comes from surface movement. Think of a pond or a lake, the water is being oxygenated just by the small ripples on the surface. Just simply having a rolling boil alone will introduce O2 into the boiling wort. Then you have the boiling process itself which is a de-oxygenation process. Things should be fine.

mdgtarheel said:

I'm with this guy. I am hoping that I can figure out what you are doing before you show it in action...

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Check out the link to the Jet star or the other link to the Merlin.

Happy brewing.

Ok, I am happy with this part so far. I used a 3" 316 SS pipe and screwed it into a coupling. Then I cut off the part of the coupling I don't need to be used later on in the build. I made several passes around the coupler to get rid of the threads and give me enough material to work with. I still need to weld it to the cone and you can see the seem where the two will be welded. I wont get a perfect cone but I don't think it will be too bad. Especially since I cut off a tube already and I don't have a metal lathe. Its gonna have to do.



You can see I am gonna have a little step to the cone, though I don't think the wort will care less. This is also a really good shot of the thickness of the cone material.

An answer to O2 pickup in the boil, the solubility of O2 and other gasses at boiling temperatures is very small. This is the common method of prearing water for use in boilers, heat until near boiling, and then spray to break into droplets to facilitate outgassing of dissolved air. The likelyhood of O2 pickup in the calandria wort stream is quite small at boiling temperatures.

kladue said:

An answer to O2 pickup in the boil, the solubility of O2 and other gasses at boiling temperatures is very small. This is the common method of prearing water for use in boilers, heat until near boiling, and then spray to break into droplets to facilitate outgassing of dissolved air. The likelyhood of O2 pickup in the calandria wort stream is quite small at boiling temperatures.

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Thank you Kladue. A much simpler version to what I said.

It would make sense that O2 pickup is minimal and therefore hot side aeration is not an issue; more than anything I was curious because I had never seen a calandria before. I really like the idea and am now trying to figure out if an electric one could be designed.

I am interested to see how the internal plumbing will all get sealed together.

I don't see why anyone would be concerned with aeration during boil. After boil, pre-fermentation, aeration/oxygenation is a GOOD thing.

that stainless is some nut-busting good material! i gotta go change my trouser short.

jfkriege said:

It would make sense that O2 pickup is minimal and therefore hot side aeration is not an issue; more than anything I was curious because I had never seen a calandria before. I really like the idea and am now trying to figure out if an electric one could be designed.

I am interested to see how the internal plumbing will all get sealed together.

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Another member was interested in trying to do an electric version too. This was their idea. I think it would need more modification then jjust placing the element in there. The way it will be built, you will dry fire the element.

Ok, I got the post welded and finished. The top is now done and I am waiting for the laser work to get done. I don't have a clue as too when he will get to them.

Though it doesn't look any different here is the top.

GreenMonti said:

Another member was interested in trying to do an electric version too. This was their idea. I think it would need more modification then jjust placing the element in there. The way it will be built, you will dry fire the element.

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If I did electric, I would more than likely use a traditional design and then either 1. have the element heat water/steam which would be used in the calandria or 2. have another heat transfer medium like oil that could be brought up to, say, 250F with the heating element and pump the oil through the calandria. I would not try to have the electric element in direct contact with the wort unless I could find a more appropriate element/elements.

Do you know if external calandria design is terribly different from the internal calandria design? or if there is a good resource for calandria design?

good god i love shiny things! I MIGHT want to have sex with that thing when you're done. just saying....

GreenMonti said:

Ok, Especially since I cut off a tube already and I don't have a metal lathe.

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This projects looking great.

With the quality of work you do it's a sin you do not have a lathe.

I could not fathom the thought ot not having a lathe, I use mine almost
daily on projects.

Just ran across this thread... really impressive.
VERY nice work!
Think I'm just gonna sit and watch this progress if you don't mind.

Ed

I am really curious as to if this will save propane or natural gas compaired to direct firing the "normal" way. I read that you used about a quart/min at full gas to boil before. Are you predicting any improvement and possibility in turning the gas down? I know you are working on recycling your condensation which will help, but what about insulating the kettle? With all this do you think you could lower your gas bill? Very very curious about less gas usage. You guys have my attention in this build, and I am thinking in copper now for my own.

jfkriege said:

If I did electric, I would more than likely use a traditional design and then either 1. have the element heat water/steam which would be used in the calandria or 2. have another heat transfer medium like oil that could be brought up to, say, 250F with the heating element and pump the oil through the calandria. I would not try to have the electric element in direct contact with the wort unless I could find a more appropriate element/elements.

Do you know if external calandria design is terribly different from the internal calandria design? or if there is a good resource for calandria design?

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I can't say on the external design. It was mentioned to me by Kladue. I never gave it much thought really. Something about this style that has my attention. The thing about steam is that it is always willing to give up its energy. I don't think oil would work. When steam condenses it gives up almost all the energy that was put into it.

Djlunchbox said:

good god i love shiny things! I MIGHT want to have sex with that thing when you're done. just saying....

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Will that help me with the passivization process?

BrewBeemer said:

This projects looking great.

With the quality of work you do it's a sin you do not have a lathe.

I could not fathom the thought ot not having a lathe, I use mine almost
daily on projects.

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Tell me about it. I just don't have the space right now. I don't have the cash for one either, but if I had the space I would probably find the cash.

Ohio-Ed said:

Just ran across this thread... really impressive.
VERY nice work!
Think I'm just gonna sit and watch this progress if you don't mind.

Ed

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Pull up a chair Ed. Have one on me.

WortMonger said:

I am really curious as to if this will save propane or natural gas compaired to direct firing the "normal" way. I read that you used about a quart/min at full gas to boil before. Are you predicting any improvement and possibility in turning the gas down? I know you are working on recycling your condensation which will help, but what about insulating the kettle? With all this do you think you could lower your gas bill? Very very curious about less gas usage. You guys have my attention in this build, and I am thinking in copper now for my own.

Click to expand...

I am hoping to save a little more gas too. I did do one last run before I started this. I have the burner control type regulator. From the closed position it will turn 3 full turns to be fully open. I have successfully run it with it being only 2 turns open. I never really payed too much attention before now but, I seem to be drawn to the fact that this is where I used to run it when I was direct firing my keggle. I will know about that this weekend as I intend to brew.:fro: I have taken all my old rig apart but I have kept the kettle in tact and put my turkey fryer back together. Even though I will be doing a partial mash this weekend I still get to make some beer. It has been about 1 year 4 months since I last brewed. Bathroom and kitchen remodel got in the way.

I suppose with a rig like that, insulation would be somewhat easy, like an electric build. Wrap the thing in fiberglass and a blanket

On the topic of electric calandria, my thought would be an enclosed saturated steam system, kind of like the electric steam kettles, however this would also be very dangerous with the whole pressure thing. Using oil as a medium could also cause problems from a flammability standpoint as well as a pressure standpoint depending on the loop design.