Quick question on dark malt percentages

I brewed a scottish porter yesterday, and I wasn't happy with the color in the mash, so late in the mash, I added 4 oz of carafa III. Here's my overall bill (OG ended up at 1.068):

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
50.0 6.00 lbs. Gleneagle's Maris Otter Pale Great Britain 1.038 5
25.0 3.00 lbs. Briess DME- Extra Light America 1.046 8
8.3 1.00 lbs. Flaked Barley America 1.032 2
4.2 0.50 lbs. Chocolate Malt America 1.029 350
4.2 0.50 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian 1.030 120
2.1 0.25 lbs. Black Patent Malt America 1.028 525
2.1 0.25 lbs. Carafa Special Germany 1.030 600
2.1 0.25 lbs. Roasted Barley Belgium 1.030 575
2.1 0.25 lbs. Scottish Peated Malt Scotland 1.038 5

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.00 oz. Northern Brewer Whole 6.50 37.5 First WH
1.00 oz. Goldings - E.K. Whole 6.00 11.7 20 min.
0.25 oz. Tettnanger Pellet 4.00 1.8 15 min.
0.25 oz. Tettnanger Pellet 4.00 1.1 8 min.
0.25 oz. Tettnanger Pellet 4.00 0.3 2 min.


I've never used Carafa III before, but it's my understanding that it's dehusked, which means it doesn't contribute that harshness that black patent or roasted barley can. So, here's the question: in the past 2 dark beers I made (stouts), I think I used too much dark malt. They both came out very harsh and are going to need alot of aging. So, does the above malt bill sound like it has too much dark/black malt in it, even assuming that the Carafa III doesn't contribute tannic harshness?

I'm wondering if any of the harshness is coming from the peated malt - most of the recipes I've seen call for two ounces, not four (I used 2oz in my smoked porter). I've been using mostly chocolate malt in browns and porters - I haven't used black patent or roasted barley in ages - as I perceive it to be a lot less aggressive of a roasty character. Maybe try just using chocolate malt if it's a porter - save the BP and RB for stouts where you want a more assertive character. And, I would drop the peated malt down significantly (from all I've read, peated moss doesn't really belong in Scottish beers, anyway).

Bird, I doubt that peated is the culprit, because the previous 2 batches that I was talking about didn't have any peated malt in them. They just had higher %'s of dark malts. Like 22.5% for the coffee stout---ridiculous, I know.

Remember the smoked porter I sent you? It had 3 ounces of the peated in it. It was less hoppy and had a lower OG than this one, and I really did want to have a smokier beer---just wanted to try it out. We'll see if it was too much. At worst, I'll end up with a rauch-porter. And where did you read that peated doesn't belong in Scottish beers? Isn't the stuff Scottish? Either way, I'm less worried about the peated than I am about the dark malts. And does Special B count as a dark malt?

No-peat-in-Scottish came from the grandmaster, Jamil (IIRC). The stuff may be Scottish, but they use it for making Scotch, not beer!

the_bird said:

No-peat-in-Scottish came from the grandmaster, Jamil (IIRC). The stuff may be Scottish, but they use it for making Scotch, not beer!

Click to expand...

Gotcha. I wasn't arguing with ya, just asking.

I'd use Rauch malt to smoke it, but I have all this damned peated laying around that I have to use. Got it from AHS, where the product description says, "This malt is lightly peated and is primarily used to enhance flavor in Scottish-type ales."

So like I said, we'll see. It might be too much, but I actually wanted a little more smokiness on the last smoked porter I did. I'm trying to find the right balance. The reason I call this one a "scottish porter" has to do with the yeast I used (Scottish high-grav) and not so much the grains.

The Carafe III is not supposed to give you any harshness; you see it in a low of swartzbier (sp?) recipes for precisely that reason. I've used some debittered black malt for similar purposes (darkening up a brew without getting too roasty); it was buried under a mound of hops, but chewing a few grains leads me to believe that it'll lend more of a black coffee note than anything else.

Honestly, I'd try dropping the patent and/or the roasted barley out first, if you want a smoother porter.

the_bird said:

The Carafe III is not supposed to give you any harshness; you see it in a low of swartzbier (sp?) recipes for precisely that reason. I've used some debittered black malt for similar purposes (darkening up a brew without getting too roasty); it was buried under a mound of hops, but chewing a few grains leads me to believe that it'll lend more of a black coffee note than anything else.

Honestly, I'd try dropping the patent and/or the roasted barley out first, if you want a smoother porter.

Click to expand...

So, Bird, since you've had the other smoked porter, give me your honest opinion here. Below is the grain bill for that first one, which you liked. Compare it with the one at the top of this page. Whaddaya think (other than the fact that it will be smokier)? I mean, hell, I used MORE dark grains on the first one than I did yesterday, and that first one is pretty smooth.


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
26.8 3.00 lbs. Generic LME - Dark Generic 1.035 25
13.4 1.50 lbs. Generic LME - Extra Light Generic 1.035 7
13.4 1.50 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) America 1.036 2
8.9 1.00 lbs. Chocolate Malt America 1.029 350
8.9 1.00 lbs. Crystal 20L America 1.035 20
8.9 1.00 lbs. Generic LME - Weizen Generic 1.035 7
8.9 1.00 lbs. Maris Otter Pale Malt Great Britain 1.038 3
4.5 0.50 lbs. Black Patent Malt America 1.028 525
4.5 0.50 lbs. Molasses Generic 1.036 80
1.7 0.19 lbs. Scottish Peated Malt 1.038 5

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.40 oz. Magnum Pellet 14.00 20.8 60 min.
0.20 oz. Simcoe Whole 14.40 9.7 60 min.
0.40 oz. Simcoe Whole 14.40 16.1 35 min.
0.25 oz. Crystal Pellet 4.50 1.3 8 min.
0.25 oz. Tettnanger Pellet 4.00 0.3 2 min.

By the way, who's the undertaker-lookalike on your avatar?

Well, I don't know how aged the SP was when I had it, but I liked it a lot and thought it was well-balanced. Seems like you had no roasted barley in there, which is a clue.

Here's something else to thinking about; Northern Brewer's a pretty harsh hop, even when used for bittering. Magnum's a lot cleaner. Any chance you could be picking up any of that?

Oh, and the dude?



"THE MAJOR RAGER ON THE FOUR STRONG MOTHER****ER!"

(I was thinking of him when I has a tooth pulled recently)

But do you think that there's really gonna be a big difference between half a pound of patent, and 1/4lb of roasted and 1/4 pound of patent?

I'm sorry to hound this issue, but you're a knowledgable guy, so I'm curious. I don't really think that this batch will be harsh. Notice I said that I brewed it yesterday, so I think our wires are crossed.

Let me clarify: the two "harsh" batches that I keep referring to are in my recipe database under my name. The two stouts. As you can see, I went overboard with both of them (I mean, the Dark Horse is obviously too much...4 lbs of dark malts??? Ha.), and I'm merely making sure that I this batch will be better---I don't know anything definitively, because it's still fermenting as we speak, but the unfermented wort didn't taste harsh.

But given that my grain bill on this new batch is similar to the last porter, I'm a little more optimistic now that I look at it closely.