ph importance and options

I'm relatively new to AG (just a few batches) and am wondering about the importance of ph in my mash. So far, I haven't worried too much about it, but, as most of us at one point might have wondered, I recently thought to myself, "well, what if I start tinkering with...?" You get the idea. So my initial question is:

Should I invest in 5.2 stabilizer and forget about it or would it be, at some point, useful to invest in a ph meter, etc? why, why not?

(mind you I use filtered water I get at the local supermarket dispenser)

Ike said:

I'm relatively new to AG (just a few batches) and am wondering about the importance of ph in my mash. So far, I haven't worried too much about it, but, as most of us at one point might have wondered, I recently thought to myself, "well, what if I start tinkering with...?" You get the idea. So my initial question is:

Should I invest in 5.2 stabilizer and forget about it or would it be, at some point, useful to invest in a ph meter, etc? why, why not?

(mind you I use filtered water I get at the local supermarket dispenser)

Click to expand...

5.2 is the lazy way out IMO. It will stablize mash pH (small "p", big "H") with most, but not all, waters but unless you know what is in you water you could easily be missing other brew water components which can influence other factors. First see if you can get a list of the mineral and other ions in the water. In most cases you can make some small additions of common brewing salts for specific beer styles to insure the mash pH falls into place. In addition you will also be able to have enough sulphates for hoppy ales or enough carbonates for dark brews. Check out the link below for a nice primer on brewing water. You don't have to go nuts and you don't have to match listed waters exactly but a small effort in the water department is a good way to make the next step up in brewing.

Water And Homebrewing

I suggest you keep brewing the way you brew. But start reading up on water chemistry and mash pH. It can get complicated and you may have to read several authors until it makes click. Then start applying what you learned to your brewing.

Don't buy a pH meter yet. They are really nice and handy but also an investment and take maintenance. But pick up a pack of those colorpHast strips. They are good enough for your early ventures into mash pH. If you want to go deeper into the water chemistry stuff you cab always get a pH meter later. The strips are a good back-up anyway.

You said that you get the water from the grocery store. Is this water reverse osmose filtered? If it is you are in luck as this is very soft (almost distilled) water and you can add brewing salts to design the water to your needs. For that you need to pick up a few salts (gypsum, epsom salt, calcium chloride, baking soda and chalk) and a scale with a +/- 0.01 - 0.001 g precision. They have them on e-bay for cheap.

I'm suggesting that you keep brewing the way you brew now b/c it seems to work and I don't want you to stress out over the water chemistry as it can be overwhelming in the beginning.

Kai

I'd only recommend 5.2 if you had fairly hard water. For water with a reasonable lavel of hardness, the components of the malts will bring the mash to the proper pH (for most styles). If your water is from a reservoir, you should be fine.

I started messing with my water to solve some taste issues. My water is high in carbonates and this led to a harsh bitterness. I now treat for this and the bitterness has smoothed substantially.

I have used 5.2 on a handful of batchs and found I get lower efficiency. I determined this was caused by the sparg being buffered as well. I added some acid to the sparge water and the efficiency went up. I made another brew with out 5.2 and the efficiency went up.

Sooooooooo, for my brewing water here in Lincoln I decided not to use it anymore until I build my water from scratch.

pjj2ba said:

I'd only recommend 5.2 if you had fairly hard water. For water with a reasonable lavel of hardness, the components of the malts will bring the mash to the proper pH (for most styles). If your water is from a reservoir, you should be fine.

I started messing with my water to solve some taste issues. My water is high in carbonates and this led to a harsh bitterness. I now treat for this and the bitterness has smoothed substantially.

Click to expand...

I've been told that water Hardness/Softness has nothing to do with pH. Not sure if that's completely true or not as I'm still learning about water, but I've heard that from a couple different people.

Yankeehillbrewer said:

I've been told that water Hardness/Softness has nothing to do with pH.

Click to expand...

Yes, that is true.

Kai

Kai,
Not to get too off-topic but is the following also true?

Water hardness/softness does affect residual alkalinity which then affects mash pH. And mash pH is really what the brewer is most interested in.

I'm trying to learn some water chemistry too...one baby step at a time.

Kaiser said:

You said that you get the water from the grocery store. Is this water reverse osmose filtered? If it is you are in luck as this is very soft (almost distilled) water and you can add brewing salts to design the water to your needs. For that you need to pick up a few salts (gypsum, epsom salt, calcium chloride, baking soda and chalk) and a scale with a +/- 0.01 - 0.001 g precision. They have them on e-bay for cheap.

Kai

Click to expand...

I'm pretty certain it is reverse osmosis filtered. The water is definitely soft and has seemed to work out well. Only with my 80 Schilling did I add some salts. After a few mishaps concerning over zealous specialty malt use, however, I've adopted the "less is sometimes more" attitude and will approach water pH similarly.
Next (and more pressing/practical) question: I'm brewing a Best Bitter today and have been reading Ray Daniel's Designing Great Beers for info on proper water. Burton-upon-Trent is one good example of proper water for an authentic BB. With my several gallons of supermarket water in mind, would it be prudent to follow Daniels' advice, that "if you are starting with 5 gallons of very soft water that contains little or no mineral ions, you could add 5 teaspoons of gypsum to achieve mineral concentrations that are near the Burton levels." (p.170) He also advises adding a little salt (table) and Epsom salts. Granted, I'd have to better research the composition of my H20, but I was thinking about trying it out anyways.

Many water report are available on-line. Some of these mainly deal with contaminants so you may have to phone your water company,and see if you can talk to one of the technicians. I called mine and mentioned I wanted to know my water chemistry for brewing and the guy was "oh I know just what you want, I'll put it in the mail"

Your water report should list permanent hardness - this is Ca and Mg and does not play a role in pH. Then it should also list temporary hardness (or called alkalinity). This is important as this is the measure of the buffering capacity of your water, and this plays a role in determining your final mash pH.

Yankeehillbrewer said:

I've been told that water Hardness/Softness has nothing to do with pH.

Click to expand...

Yes, but hard water is typically alkaline and [naturally] soft water is typically acidic.

Ok...Don't yell at me if this is getting off topic buuuuttt...I have been using store bought spring water. I really don't know what the chemistry is of it...has anyone ever really looked into it??? My LHBS always gives me brewers salts and irish moss free. I am doing my first AG recipe Sunday and was curious if I need to add the salts to the spring water?? After reading some posts, they say the RO water is good to use...would that need the salts as well???

Kug

Kugster,
I use bottled water and I got the water analysis for the brand I buy. Other brands are probably different. In my case, their Spring Water is a little less alkaline and just a tiny bit softer than their Drinking Water. The Distilled Water is just that. In my case both Spring and Drinking Water are fine for brewing...Spring for lighter beers and Drinking for darker beers. Distilled (and RO too for that matter) need a bunch of stuff put back in to be good for brewing. But you can always 'cut' your Spring/Drinking water with Distilled (or RO) to get even softer water.

SpanishCastleAle said:

Kugster,
I use bottled water and I got the water analysis for the brand I buy. Other brands are probably different. In my case, their Spring Water is a little less alkaline and just a tiny bit softer than their Drinking Water. The Distilled Water is just that. In my case both Spring and Drinking Water are fine for brewing...Spring for lighter beers and Drinking for darker beers. Distilled (and RO too for that matter) need a bunch of stuff put back in to be good for brewing. But you can always 'cut' your Spring/Drinking water with Distilled (or RO) to get even softer water.

Click to expand...

So did you go online for the brand to get the analysis or call...cause I use "Fry's" water.

Also, does this mean that you don''t use salts for your mash??

Thanks for the responce.

I called and they sent them. Sometimes I add salts...sometimes not.

I just spoke with the owner of my LHBS and his is a water geek! (that's how he put it) :cross:

He & the other owner spent quite a bit of time doing water tests and coming up with their own brew salts. Their salts are designed to work very well with purified RO water...the key he says is to make sure the RO water is PURIFIED. Like from a water-n-ice store. Now the RO water you can get in front of most grocery stores may or may not be PURIFIED.

He also said that using their salts in store bought "spring" water will be good as well. Now remember, these salts were designed for the water here in AZ and the water in other regions of the country may not be the same for these particular salts.

I also emailed the company that sells the "spring" water to Fry's food...which is a Kroger Food chain. I asked them for an analysis sheet on their spring & drinking water. We will see if they bother to email me back???

Kug