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OK, here is what I've been patiently waiting for several weeks for... the first real statistics from my system. This is what has been missing in the fine tuning. For this run I had a mash differential of .25 degrees and a HEX differential of 5 degrees. I "doughed-in" at 100 degrees, held for one minute, then ramped to 153 and held for 30 mins. It basically took the HEX 30 minutes to reach 153 and 34 minutes to reach 158 (+5 HEX differential), and roughly took the mash 40 minutes to reach 153.

Here is a quick chart thrown together in Excel:
chart1.gif
 
First off... Awesome.

Second, and this is probably obvious, but please tell me there's GFCI involved in that circuit somewhere and that your HLT is grounded. Don't want to be a ****** bag but just want to make sure we're all playing safe. Sorry if you already mentioned that somewhere and I missed it.

Could you potentially give more information about what you're using for the software end of things. That is, is the interface written in C? Visual Basic? Where did you get the PID code?

I wasn't too surprised to see you were having SSR problems w/out a heat sink. Is that one heat sink being used on all your SSRs? I've got a bit of experience with these and I can tell you confidently that SSR life is greatly diminished w/out proper heat sink use. I'm not sure what the current load on the others is but you might potentially want to consider getting a much larger heat sink or individual heat sinks for each SSR. Although, if not much current's being drawn on the others it might not be a big deal. Usually SSR data sheets have some graphs and recommendations for heat sink use.

Again... that's freaking awesome. I've been thinking for a long time about doing something similar w/ a PLC, LabView, or Visual C++ and a touch screen but don't have anywhere near the time and money that you apparently do. I'm very jealous! Bravo to you sir!
 
CrookedChris said:
First off... Awesome.

Second, and this is probably obvious, but please tell me there's GFCI involved in that circuit somewhere and that your HLT is grounded. Don't want to be a ****** bag but just want to make sure we're all playing safe. Sorry if you already mentioned that somewhere and I missed it.

Could you potentially give more information about what you're using for the software end of things. That is, is the interface written in C? Visual Basic? Where did you get the PID code?

I wasn't too surprised to see you were having SSR problems w/out a heat sink. Is that one heat sink being used on all your SSRs? I've got a bit of experience with these and I can tell you confidently that SSR life is greatly diminished w/out proper heat sink use. I'm not sure what the current load on the others is but you might potentially want to consider getting a much larger heat sink or individual heat sinks for each SSR. Although, if not much current's being drawn on the others it might not be a big deal. Usually SSR data sheets have some graphs and recommendations for heat sink use.

Again... that's freaking awesome. I've been thinking for a long time about doing something similar w/ a PLC, LabView, or Visual C++ and a touch screen but don't have anywhere near the time and money that you apparently do. I'm very jealous! Bravo to you sir!
Click to expand...

Yes, all the wall plugs in my brewery have GFCI's built in - including the 220v. While there is always a chance of a major leak, the chances are minimal and would probably happen in the front of the rig, not in the back where the breakout box sits. The touchscreen is fully encased in metal and can withstand getting wet.

The load on the other relays are minimal - they are all rated for 25 amps and are probably pulling < 1 amp each. The 220v relay is rated for 40 amps and the packaging stated that a heatsink was only required above 25 amps. This is obviously wrong as I estimate that the heating element is pulling around 22 amps and that thing was crazy hot.

The API was provided by the manufacturer of the usb device and could be programmed in most any language.
 
Thanks all. From the statistics gathered last night, I can clearly see the current algorithm's faults and have already started the process of refining it.

I am also going to build some insulated lids for both vessels which should considerably help with ramping and heat loss...
 
John Beere said:
Yes, all the wall plugs in my brewery have GFCI's built in - including the 220v. While there is always a chance of a major leak, the chances are minimal and would probably happen in the front of the rig, not in the back where the breakout box sits. The touchscreen is fully encased in metal and can withstand getting wet.

The load on the other relays are minimal - they are all rated for 25 amps and are probably pulling < 1 amp each. The 220v relay is rated for 40 amps and the packaging stated that a heatsink was only required above 25 amps. This is obviously wrong as I estimate that the heating element is pulling around 22 amps and that thing was crazy hot.

The API was provided by the manufacturer of the usb device and could be programmed in most any language.
Click to expand...

When you say you're using the the API provided by the manufacturer do you mean DAQFactory Express or are you using the provided DLL w/ some custom C code or LabView or something? Sorry if this seems like a silly question but I've heard so many people use the term API to mean different things so I just want to clarify. If you're using DAQFactory the express version doesn't have PID capability so are you just doing an On/Off limit switch type controller? If I finally get around to my HERMS I really want to go PWM PID for HEX, Mash, and sparge water temp but then again maybe that's overkill.
 
i know that you have alot on your plate just getting it to work right and get all the bugs and engineering issues taken care of,, but do you plan on makeing a propain or natural gas version ,, should be an easy option ,with some Gas Solenoid Valves

8030.jpg


I am wanting to build a Flat BrewSculptures but i am going to make it natrual gas becase i have gas ran out to my brewcave
 
Clayton,

I think where my app / hardware ends are the relays. You could hook a solenoid up to it, a heating element, whatever. But right now, there is no option in the software for directly controlling the mash heat seperately from the HEX. That will have to come in a future version.
 
You already know all of my thoughts in great detail from the other thread, JB, but I reiterate, this is flippin' sweet.

Did I mention that SWRLM* gave me the preliminary OK on the basement electric rig? You and I will have to chat sometime. ;)

* - I know, I'm inventing new acronyms. Someone Who Really Loves Me.
 
I feel like it is almost a waste of space to say how cool this, and all your projects are, but I simply must waste that space at this point. I am new around here but have looked through a number of your threads and am always very impressed with the level of detail and workmanship involved.

Keep all the Title Town projects coming!
 
perhaps i missed it somewhere, but how are you mixing this thing? i'm assuming you're heating through recirculation and/or flame? don't you need some mixing to keep the heat consistent throughout the mash?
 
I can answer that. The pump on the front of the frame under the touchscreen recirculates the mash. It runs for the entire mash cycle. Here is a photo of the top of my HLT/ HEX.

DSC00605.jpg


That is a 5500w 220v heating element sticking up through the middle. You can also see the HERMs coil made out of about 40 ft of copper. So I heat the HLT / HEX and the mash is heated indirectly through the HERMs coil...
 
I've been toying with the idea of doing something similar using an Arduino Arduino - HomePage

Someone already wrote a PID function for it and can get some temp probes and relays easily as well. Total cost, using an old laptop and my current electric setup, would be about $200. It would probably take me about 40-100 man hours to do it, that's the biggest reason I haven't done it*.

Looks like the LabJack stuff has very limited Linux support :(

What touch screen you using?

Yours looks 1000 times better than anything I'd do. :rockin:

*I write C code on Unix for a living...
 
beerthirty said:
So JB, since you recirc your wort constantly, have you ever had a problem with a stuck mash? Ever made hi wheat or hi grav with the herms?
Click to expand...

My tastes may change in time, but I don't do a lot of wheat. I think the highest gravity beer I've made recently had an OG of around 1.068. So far I've never had any issues with it clogging up. I'm sure a lot is due to my 3-roller mill.

I run the recirculation pump for the entire mash at 100%. I've heard / read the arguments against recirculating too fast - grain bed compaction, etc - but I have never had those issues as well and average right at 80% efficiency...
 
bakins said:
I've been toying with the idea of doing something similar using an Arduino Arduino - HomePage

Someone already wrote a PID function for it and can get some temp probes and relays easily as well. Total cost, using an old laptop and my current electric setup, would be about $200. It would probably take me about 40-100 man hours to do it, that's the biggest reason I haven't done it*.

Looks like the LabJack stuff has very limited Linux support :(

What touch screen you using?

Yours looks 1000 times better than anything I'd do. :rockin:

*I write C code on Unix for a living...
Click to expand...

I want to pick up the Arduino, but I didn't feel it was suited for this project.

The touchscreen is a 12" industrial model made by Cyber Research. It has some contrast issues but I could really care less. I picked it up new old stock off eBay for dirt cheap - really lucked out on that.

My original idea was to run this from my UMPC but I was starting to compromise the interface to get it to all fit. Here is an early photo of it running in debug mode from the UMPC.
DSC00595.jpg
 
Well, here is all I got done today. I wanted some decent compact speakers for the alarms but I damn sure didn't want to have to plug them in - so I settled for these off Amazon: Amazon.com: Genius SP-i200U USB Portable Digital Speakers for notebooks- Black: Electronics

It is USB powered and has its own soundcard built in - so all that plugs in is the USB cable. It sound pretty good for the size and is definitely loud enough to be heard when the alarms sound. I mounted it above the PC and below the breakout box.

DSC00632.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Well you have a good start there. I used to work with automated production lines and you are almost state of the art. We has color touch screens and graphic pictures on the screen of processes in action. I'm sure you will get the bugs worked out and have a nice expensive new toy. :) I thought about doing the same thing but can't follow through because I make so many kinds of beer that I would constantly be writing programs for every little change. Is your program going to have choices on screen for every item to be controlled or do you have to rewrite part or most control changes into the program itself at a keyboard? Just curious.
 
WBC, good question - I haven't covered it in this thread. Each "brew" has its own config file that instructs the application on the specific instructions for that recipe. Here is a sample config file as it stands now.

Code: 
'== Brew Title =============================================
Georgia Pale Ale
'== Mash Schedule (Yes/No, Temp, Time) =====================
Y 104 20            'Acid Rest
Y 126 20            'Protein Rest
N 140 0             'Intermediate Rest
Y 152 60            'Saccharification Rest
Y 170 30            'Mash-out Rest
Y 178 30            'Sparge
'== Boil Time (in minutes) =================================
75
'== Boil Additions (in minutes) ============================
60,15,5
 
Well that's really simple. Will each one of these programs be available via the touch screen by name? Are you programing this yourself?
 
WBC said:
Well that's really simple. Will each one of these programs be available via the touch screen by name? Are you programing this yourself?
Click to expand...

Yes, I am the programmer. It is actually a very refreshing project compared to the software I write for work...

Right now the configs are loaded through a standard windows dialog but that isn't good enough for the final product. I am working on creating an interface to load the configs that is more touchscreen friendly. Here is a screenshot - sorry, kinda big... it is 1:1 ratio. Notice that the only letters that are lit up are the ones with configs that match. Once the letter is selected, a list of all configs that match are returned to be selected... still working on that part.

load1.jpg
 
Well I can see you are having fun and can make beer too. What a combination. :) I would eventually like to work with steam as it is good for cleaning and sterilizing too. I have a conical fermenter and that would fit right into the plan. Steam is a quick energy source as well for step mashing. Creating a safe automated steam source that is not to expensive would be a good challenge. Cleaning and sterilizing tubing and hi temp hoses just before wort transfer would be a breeze using steam. I am using stainless quick disconnects on all my vessels so moving lines is quick.
 
what did you code this in and how long did it take you. I seriously just drooled on myself
 
All I can say is remember Hal in 2001: a Space Odyssey.

You are going to come home one day and that thing is going to be cooking up a batch of Light Lager all on its own. You will be locked out and that screen will say something like "Trust me, this is for your own good..." I

tell you, it is evil and you should send it to me ASAP.
 
HAHAHAHAHA EXCELLENT, BP! :D

Watch, It'll start insisting that you like wheat beer! :p
 
John Beere said:
I want to pick up the Arduino, but I didn't feel it was suited for this project.
Click to expand...

Why? (not being a jerk, asking as an engineer.) I'm reading some on the LabJack stuff, so maybe it is "better" suited. I just prefer to work in a unix-like environment. I know the Arduino is much more "do-it-yourself" than the labjack stuff.

To be honest, it will be a while before I get to even start on mine. Plus, I rarely do step mashes and my cooler only looses about 1 degree per hour.

A big thumbs up from a systems software guy.
 
bakins said:
Why? (not being a jerk, asking as an engineer.) I'm reading some on the LabJack stuff, so maybe it is "better" suited. I just prefer to work in a unix-like environment. I know the Arduino is much more "do-it-yourself" than the labjack stuff.

To be honest, it will be a while before I get to even start on mine. Plus, I rarely do step mashes and my cooler only looses about 1 degree per hour.

A big thumbs up from a systems software guy.
Click to expand...

Listen up Jerk - because I said so, that's why! :D

Actually, I want one to mess around with myself and might find that it could have worked, but I wanted something that interfaced directly with the PC, not running from the device itself - which is how I understand the Arduino works.

Bigger than that though is the flexibility that the LabJack provides in reading a multitude of devices and probes and the accuracy (12-bit resolution on the analog inputs) it provides. Right now, I am toggling six solid state relays, reading two temperature probes, and monitoring a float switch. And I can still hook up ten more devices to this single device.
 
Brewpastor said:
All I can say is remember Hal in 2001: a Space Odyssey.

You are going to come home one day and that thing is going to be cooking up a batch of Light Lager all on its own. You will be locked out and that screen will say something like "Trust me, this is for your own good..." I

tell you, it is evil and you should send it to me ASAP.
Click to expand...

I don't know about shipping it to you, but I will invite you over to bless it for me...
 

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