Gueze beer recipe in BYO

Thanks to Evan! I re-read that article that included a gueze recipe. I am planning on starting my gueze beer mission this summer and have a few questions. First here is my general plan....

I brew in 10g batches. This spring or early summer, I will brew my first gueze batch. This will age in two 5g carboys.

Next spring or early summer I will brew the second gueze. And the third spring the third gueze.

After the third year, I will blend one 5g carboy of each batch. The remaining 5g carboy of each batch will be saved for the next years blending. This way I should have 5g of gueze to drink each year.

My question is.... in the article the say:

Ferment beer at 70 °F (21 °C) in a plastic bucket for one week. Let beer condition at 70–80 °F (21–27 °C) for 3 months, then hold at “room temperature.” Do not rack to secondary.

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Is this all in the plastic primary? Doesn't this seem like too much O2 and what about autolysis over three years? I have been trying to research this as best I may but as the date approaches I want alol my questions answered.

Thanks,
Justin

here are some other really cool threads on the general topic:

Landhoney's Ambient/Spontaneous Fermentation

Dracionianhand's Gueze thread

Boerderij Kabouter said:

Is this all in the plastic primary? Doesn't this seem like too much O2 and what about autolysis over three years? I have been trying to research this as best I may but as the date approaches I want alol my questions answered.

Thanks,
Justin

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I wouldn't leave the beer in a plastic bucket that long, because of too much O2, but some people do. The deal with autolysis is that the Brett/etc consume the dead yeast/etc so that's not a problem. I leave all(2) my pLambics in primary glass carboys. The real Lambic brewers don't rack either, it works for them it can work for us.

Landhoney,

Have you used the lambic blend from Wyeast? does it turn out well? If not, what else have you used?

Boerderij Kabouter said:

Landhoney,

Have you used the lambic blend from Wyeast? does it turn out well? If not, what else have you used?

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Despite my supposed expertise on the subject, I have not been brewing sour beers for that long, my gueze is a little over a year and a half away at least. I did use the lambic blend for them though. You've got fairly limited options unless you're a microbioligist with a lab.

Wyeast Lambic Blend
Whitelabs Sour Blend
Wyeast Roeselare
WY/WL Individual Brett/Lacto/Pedio strains

Or dump the dreggs of unpastuerized Lambic/Gueze into your beer. I am trying this with a sour brown I'm doing. Any sour beer dreggs get dumped in after I drink them.

Landhoney-

can i ask you why you are prone to spelling it with a p? plambic?

Reverend JC said:

Landhoney-

can i ask you why you are prone to spelling it with a p? plambic?

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Depends, are you ready to see my EAC roar?

To me, and some others, its only Lambic if its brewed in a small area of Belgium in a specific way. Like Champagne is from Champagne, otherwise its sparkling wine. pLambic stands for pseudo-Lambic, it describes what style I'm attempting to brew/emulate succinctly while not trying to be something its not.

Do I mind if homebrewers say they are brewing a Lambic? Hell no, I'm not that much of an EAC. Its my choice, I don think everyone has to. Just trying to respect the beer gods over there.
Do I mind when Sam Adams does it? Hell YES! Bastids aren't even attempting to make it like Lambic, not to mention they make it here in America. Don't try to convince Americans unfamiliar with the style that your Cranberry Lambic is what real Lambic is like.

I was thinking about trying something similar myself. Have you tried culturing from a bottle of Cantillion? My fiancee loves that stuff, so it might be a nice excuse to brew more beer..

acr4 said:

I was thinking about trying something similar myself. Have you tried culturing from a bottle of Cantillion? My fiancee loves that stuff, so it might be a nice excuse to brew more beer..

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I've dumped Cantillon in, but not made a starter from it. I'm not sure a starter is necessary in this regard. I've heard people souring just with Fantome dreggs(etc.) into secondary so it is possible. My Oud Bruin went through primary fermentation from the cultured(starter) dreggs from a bottle of De Dolle Oerbier Reserve 2005 and a Drie Fonteinen Schaerbeekse Kriek. Then secondary with :
Brettanomyces lambicus (WY)
Brettanomyces lambicus (WL)
Brettanomyces bruxellensis (WL)
Brettanomyces claussenii (WL)
Brettanomyces sp. (Fantôme)
Brettanomyces sp. (Jolly Pumpkin)
Brettanomyces sp. (Russian River wood chips)
Lactobacillus sp. (Russian River wood chips)
Pediococcus sp. (WL)
Oenococcus oennii (WY)
Saccharomyces fermentati (Sherry yeast)
Kombucha yeast (oxidative yeast)
And all my sour beer dreggs, until recently.

I want to try just using maybe just the dreggs of 2 Cantillon bottles for the sour-secondary fermentation of a beer though. My guess is that it would work well.

I had kind of figured that was why you were calling it the pLambic but i wasnt sure.

By definition then one of my fav brews is a "pKolsch" since, if im not mistaken a real Kolsch can only be brewed in the town of Cologne.

Reverend JC said:

I had kind of figured that was why you were calling it the pLambic but i wasnt sure.

By definition then one of my fav brews is a "pKolsch" since, if im not mistaken a real Kolsch can only be brewed in the town of Cologne.

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Welcome to the church Reverend JC!!

I realize this can be a tough issue, American Wild Ale is the 'catch all' for American sour beers. Short of a lengthy description on the bottle, how are the uninitiated to get an idea what's in the commercial bottle of unknown beer - sour brown, sour red, sour wheat??? I don't have all the answers, but I try to be respectful of a very unique beer/brewing process/history/etc.

Boerderij Kabouter said:

Is this all in the plastic primary? Doesn't this seem like too much O2 and what about autolysis over three years? I have been trying to research this as best I may but as the date approaches I want all my questions answered.

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The oxygenation from the plastic bucket could be to imitate the oxygen leaching in the barrels lambic is traditionally fermented in. I'd be worried about flavour leaching from the plastic at that timeframe.

(I believe the micro-oxygenation helps develop a good brettanomyces profile, perhaps other beasties benefit)

How do you deal with the added bacteria in your brewing set up. I mean, do you designate specific carboys for plambics? How do you sanitize or clean out your equipment. From what I am told the added bacteria can be tricky to kill.

Also, after primary aren't most plambics stored in wood barrels (a luxury, indeed)? It seems like oxygen would seep through, so maybe minimal oxygen would not be so bad.

I am wanting to brew a peach plambic this summer and have been doing a bit of research.

Thanks
Matt

Some oxygen can be good, too much is bad. From 'Wild Brews':

Type // Gallons(size) // ( O2 cc/L/year )
Rodenbach tun(small) // 3,168 // .53
Wine Barrel // 80 // 8.5
Homebrew Bucket // 5.3 // 220
Glass Carboy w/wood stopper // 5.3 // .10
Glass Carboy w/immersion tube // 5.3 // .31

The last number is how much O2 gets in contact with the beer per Liter per year. So the homebrew bucket is letting in waaayyyy more than any barrel commercial brewers are using. And I don't think the plastic 'flavor' ever comes out into a beer. People do leave beer in them for many months, and I've never heard of anyone complaining about this.

I have heard of people sealing carboys with a 1/2 inch oak dowel pushed through a stopper during storage. The dowel allows a little more air in than the glass alone. This is what I was planning on doing. I really need to get that wild brews book. I just saw it the other day for the first time.

What is an immersion tube?

Boerderij Kabouter said:

I have heard of people sealing carboys with a 1/2 inch oak dowel pushed through a stopper during storage. The dowel allows a little more air in than the glass alone.

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On my Flanders Red I used an untreated oak spindle from Home Depot. I cut it to size and pushed it through a modified carboy stopper. I haven't sampled it and since I fermented it in a 5 gallon carboy, the krausen crud on the interior of the glass wall (above the fluid level) prevents me peeking in. It should be "ready" in November.

Are you sure that the oak spindle was white oak. Most oak used in lumber is red oak which is not typically used in brewing. You might not like the result if it's red oak.

effigyoffaith said:

Are you sure that the oak spindle was white oak. Most oak used in lumber is red oak which is not typically used in brewing. You might not like the result if it's red oak.

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Hmmm, it appears I have made an error. I do believe that you are correct and I have used red oak. I'll have to see if I can scare up a white oak dowel.

The other option is to boil the oak in water, change the water, and repeat several times after toasting the oak(or not, but I think toasted is better). I was looking for the oxygen diffusion/exposure of the oak, not the flavor. I added a few french oak cubes for the oak flavor.

To continue kicking the pGueze cat...

When aging my pGueze, should a age each "vintage" separately and blend just a few months before bottling? This was my original thought:

1. Brew first batch, ferment and age in 2 6g glass carboys. Wait 1 year
2. Brew second batch, ferment and age in 2 6g glass carboys, first batch is now one year old. Wait one year.
3. Brew third batch, ferment and age in 2 6g glass carboys, first batch is two years old, second batch is one year old. Wait one year.
4. Brew fourth batch, ferment and age in 2 6g glass carboys, first batch is three years old, second batch is two years old, third batch is one year old. Blend 6 gallons of the first, second, and third batches together, wait one month then bottle.

Then I would continue brewing one batch a year and mixing the carboys.

Does this make sense, or should I just be dumping this all into one large fermenter and letting the "vintages" age together in bulk? I like the separate carboy idea because it should give a more continuous and consistent pGueze (the way I see it).

What is everyone else going to do (or doing)?

landhoney said:

Are you ready to see my EAC roar?

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If you take that as a literal statement, it is terrifying.... I am not even sure how I feel about it (mental image, shutter).

My plan was to brew a pLambic every six months to blend into a gueze, but that's too many carboys. Now the plan is to just brew one every year, blend 3-2-1 years and have 15 gallons, which should last me the three+ years until the next batch is done. I don't need a batch done every year.