Cider Quex

I am loving this mad-scientist experiment I'm calling "Cider".

I have essentially four batches going, in my own lo-tech way... two use local orchard organic squeezins', one in a low-temp slooow fermentation chamber (refridgerator), and it's brother w/ a pound of brown sugar to sweeten it up.

Two more batches in an apartment that I use during the week, using off-the-shelf apple juice w/ Montrachet and br sugar, and a micro-batch a la the "eat the weeds" technique to get some organic yeast going.

The off-the-shelf was burbling happily away when I left the apartment for the week. I don't expect the micro-batch to be active for another week. The refer batch is, well, slooow, and won't be sampled for months and months.

But the brother batch... that's where I have the questions.

I kind of flew my own recipe... brown sugar, the existing natural yeasts, and a 1/4 dose of Montrachet, split into two containers. It has been a slow ferment, and my wife would patiently give me reports while I was away. I had it on the floor, near the garage, hoping that the temperatures would be steady.

I noticed tho', that the temps were 57-58 degrees, and I was wondering if that was the reason for the slow ferment. I pulled them up to the table where the temps are 68 degrees, meaning to check the fermentation speed and them return them to the floor.

I couldn't resist, and I took a tiny sample of one of the splits, and while it tastes a little _beery_, it's still very appley. Interesting, and lots of fun for a first attempt.

When I put them up on the table, I didn't think about light entering the equation.

I have read that beer is sensitive to light, but is cider?

Have I dorked the process? I know I have deviated from any regular recipe (you shalt have one yeast), but I figure the first batch really is a newb brew.

Fermentation is pretty slow, but still there. I am tempted to rack it and give it to some of the guys I know for review. Heh. Guinea pigs.

That's all. I love this game. I am hoping that when I return to the apartment, I'll have something very good to tipple.

Light's really a problem with Hops. Since there's no hops in your cider you're not really going to have any issues (guess that's why Corona doesn't have any problems either....).

Be sure to do some write-ups about how each of these experiments finishes.

Light won't skunk it, since there's no hops. But light can drain away a cider's color for sure, and even its flavors. Lower temperatures will lead to slower fermentations, though it's not necessarily a bad thing, it will lead to different alcohols and flavors. Also, how large are these batches, I am picturing 1 gallonish sized batches with jerry rigged equipment. But, adding brown sugar prior to fermentation will NOT sweeten the cider, unless you add enough to overpower the cider's alcohol tolerance. If you don't overcome the alcohol tolerance of the yeast, than the yeast will still ferment all the sugars you add, making it a higher abv% and even drier than intended.

> But light can drain away a cider's color for sure,
> and even its flavors.

They're not in direct sunlight, but I can find another place for them, or just put them back on the floor in the pantry.

> how large are these batches, I am picturing
> 1 gallonish sized batches with jerry rigged equipment.

Hey, no peekin'! Yep, it's a very low tech initial stab at it. I am hoping for something along the lines of JK Scrumpy... not high-test, but not apple juice. A little fizzy but also appley. That would be my preference. If I can get a tastey beverage at 5 or 6%, then I think it would be a successful experiment, and I can justify keeping a batch running every couple of weeks, and count the effort as both a hobby and a health adjunct.
HowStuffWorks "How can alcohol be good for your heart?"
Alcohol and the heart

> adding brown sugar prior to fermentation will NOT
> sweeten the cider, unless you add enough to overpower
> the cider's alcohol tolerance. If you don't overcome the
> alcohol tolerance of the yeast, than the yeast will still
> ferment all the sugars you add, making it a higher
> abv% and even drier than intended.

I am looking for sweet hard cider, and I was hoping that I would either have enough sugar left over after the yeast naturally stops, or maybe cold crash (I've never done it, so I am guessing at all of this).

I guess I could add (xyz) to stop the yeast while there's enough sugar left or back sweeten.

If I wind up doing this regularly, then I'll get a hygrometer, a better "carboy", etc.. Currently, my only guage for success will be: 1) can I drink it? 2) is it a successful ferment?

I'll attach pictures of the rigs, but remember, this is a harf arsed "hey, why don't I try this!?" deal.

I started out in a very similar boat, while you shouldn't be discouraged, you should be hooked enough into the hobby to look into better equipment. Not exactly sure what your setup is, but if you want to keep doing small batches, try checking out larger grocery stores or health stores for nice apple juice in glass jugs. You can buy some airlocks and proper bungs to fit them, and that is perfectly acceptable.

To get a sweet and still brew: If you just want 5 or 6%, don't add any sugar. Just ferment the juice, that should leave you with between 4.5 and 6% from most juices. When it is completely fermented, as confirmed with consistent hydrometer readings over several days, stabilize with potassium sorbate and k-metabisulphite. Then just add sugar to reach your desired sweetness.

To get a sweet and sparkling cider: Again, for your abv goal, no sugar added. When it is completely fermented, add enough nonfermentable sugars, such as lactose, splenda or stevia, to get your desired sweetness. Then add 1oz of fermentable sugars per gallon to provide enough sugar for priming or carbonating it. Bottle it right away, wait a few weeks for them to carbonate, and enjoy.

And just so you know, if your cider with the brown sugar is a 1 gallon batch, you will have 1 gallon of very dry and pretty strong cider, bordering on low alcohol wine levels.

Tusch said:

... you should be hooked enough into the hobby to look into better equipment. Not exactly sure what your setup is, but if you want to keep doing small batches, try ... apple juice in glass jugs. You can buy some airlocks and proper bungs to fit them...

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I am attaching some pics of my southern rigs. One split batch supplimented w/ brn sugar and Montrachet, one part in a PET container, and 1 part in the original jug. One w/ a bung, and one w/ a lo-tech saran wrap cover. I'll be racking them soon, as the fermentation has stopped.



The remaining batch is in cold storage, and will be fermented w/ the natural yeasts for as long as my wife will give me room in the fridge.

I did get another bung today, but its destined for the northern batch (pictures another day).

Tusch said:

> stabilize with potassium sorbate and k-metabisulphite.

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I was just there this morning and was looking at all the chems but I wasn't sure which I should get. Maybe I can pick some up this w/e.

Tusch said:

> Bottle it right away, wait a few weeks ...

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I have been getting empty soda bottles from the guys at work, and scrubbing them w/ clorox & hot water. I don't know how long I'll be able to keep them, I know I'm going to want to sample.

Tusch said:

And just so you know, if your cider with the brown sugar is a 1 gallon batch, you will have 1 gallon of very dry and pretty strong cider, bordering on low alcohol wine levels.

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I don't need strong, and I'll be happy if it's drinkable. If the dry is not too dry, and the apple is still apple, then I'll be content and try to do another in short order.

Don't be discouraged if it isn't great the first try, especially in these circumstances haha. It will almost definitely be very dry, depending on the yeast, and if it is strong and dry it won't have a ton of apple flavor. It could be more reminiscent of a white wine than most commercial ciders.

Beery... I just had a sample of one of the batches, and it tastes more like beer than wine or cider. It still has an apple flavor, but not what I'm hoping for. Will this mellow out, or is this going to be pretty much how the finished product will be?

Oh, the batch that I have running up north had a much more apple cider flavor when I took a sample last Thursday. I have lots of hope for this batch, it is much more along the Apflevine recipe. I think I'll get a chance to see it tonight, then it'll cook for another week while I'm away for Thanksgiving.

That's the batch that I picked up the other bung for. It's got the punctured saran wrap skin as an air lock. I know I'm supposed to minimize exposure to air, but I am hoping that just swapping one out for the other will be OK.

You can't get an idea of how it will taste till it is completely fermented and aged. Are you sure it is completely fermented. When did you start them? The only way to know for sure is to buy a hydrometer or other tool to measure its specific gravity and get consistent logical readings over several days. Be careful when not using a hydrometer, I bottled my first batch before I got one and it was not done fermenting. I used corks and they ending up blowing 4 corks and losing all that brew.

Hard cider tasting "beery" is common effect, if you don’t like it then you are going to have to tinker with how you’re fermenting it. I personally am rather low tech myself, i use a carboy with a cork and an airlock made of vinyl hose and a glass of water, if that says anything. Adding a pound of brown sugar will boost ABV but also it darkens the color. I would say your "beery" taste has a lot to do with your wild yeast... i know some people who use champagne yeast and add a pound of brown sugar for ever gallon of juice and this produces a rather murky but potent apple cider wine, with the addition of priming sugar they made it sparkling and it sweeten it a little (total abv about 18%)... a 22 ounce bottle basically you didn’t know your own mother... I use bread yeast (i know sick) but actually it produces about 8%abv(but need to be racked off its yeast several times to get rid of the bread yeast taste, if the extra work is worth it i don’t know) and cuts down on the "beery" flavor... might also be a product of the apple which your cider or juice originated from.... Also you might want to rethink your time table, a batch of cider can take sometimes months to stop fermenting... my time from buy to drinkable bottle is about 8 weeks (five gallon batch) and it is quite good at that point, let it sit another month and you won’t believe how good it can be... Don’t go by initial flavor it changes with time, and the biggest point is that its unpredictable... you can fallow a recipe exact and do everything the same as you have done before and one thing can change things to something completely different. It all goes with preference... keep experimenting that what makes it fun...
Exactly how long have these batches been going?

___________________________________________

Primary
5 gallons Irish Red ale
3 gallons Irish Stout
5 gallons Dark Hard Cider
3 gallons Eternal Ale
Secondary
None

That is very encouraging. I can let it sit. And sit. And...

The cider was purchased the third week in October, and it's been fermenting actively for only a couple weeks. I can stick it away in the pantry for another month or so and try again.

I like this thing.

If I get back to the apartment tonight, I'll provide an update and maybe pictures of the two other batches... the more "apfelvien-ish" one (er, followed the recipe) and the "natural yeast off an organic apple" experiment.

Thank you.

im not entirely sure when the stuff just turns to apple viniger but it eventully it will, i have yet to have a batch turn to over yet and i have brewed alot of hard cider but it never sits long, because i have an odd habit of drinking it... i wouldnt let it ferment until it has stopped fermenting or nearly and then bottle it... then drink it... sorry to sound like a broken record

I would think that the batch w/ the natural yeast might do that first -- no telling what mixture is in there. The batch up north is burbling along nicely, w/ newly installed air-lock. Snuck a taste of the side batch (left over from the carboy bottle) and it tastes pretty good even w/ the yeast fizz. I will be excited to see how it progresses.

Yes, I think I'll have to break down and get a glass gallon jug for the next batch... it doesn't add appreciably to the cost of the gallon of juice, and you get the neat science lab to host it in!

BrewinJack said:

im not entirely sure when the stuff just turns to apple viniger but it eventully it will

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I don't completely understand your comment, but if you mean to say cider turns into vinegar just over time, or by sitting on the lees too long, that is not correct. Vinegar is created ONLY by a bacteria. If you are sanitary and keep your brew under airlock, you won't have vinegar. It doesn't matter how long you leave it in the carboy, vinegar will not occur without the bacteria being introduced.

Also, not entirely sure what your last point was either. Always always let it ferment out completely, unless you are trying to stabilize an active fermentation (both chemically and thermally). And when it is done, it is recommended that you let it age and clear before you bottle. If you bottle right after your fermentation is complete, you will never have clear cider. And if you bottle right before it is complete, you have no idea what "right before" is and when it occurs, so you risk bottle bombs, because the yeast will keep working while its in the bottle, if there are still sugars to eat.

Tusch said:

I don't completely understand your comment, but if you mean to say cider turns into vinegar just over time, or by sitting on the lees too long, that is not correct. Vinegar is created ONLY by a bacteria. If you are sanitary and keep your brew under airlock, you won't have vinegar. It doesn't matter how long you leave it in the carboy, vinegar will not occur without the bacteria being introduced.

Also, not entirely sure what your last point was either. Always always let it ferment out completely, unless you are trying to stabilize an active fermentation (both chemically and thermally). And when it is done, it is recommended that you let it age and clear before you bottle.

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I didnt think it would turn while it was in the carboy, but i have heard people say they leave it sit with the cap open after bottleing and you get somthing that works great for a salad dressing... Its good to know that it wont go over if you let it sit in a controled inviorment, alwasy thought it had somthing to do with oxidation... i had wondered that thankx for clearing that up

As for bottleing before fermentation is complete... well i think that its actully a difference in opinion, and taste... if you add priming sugar arent you just starting some late to the game fermentation to carbonate in the bottle? It can also take literally months to have fermentation stop in cider, like the honey in mead the fermentables in cider is complex and takes time and more time... it works on its own timetable... way i learned is that after your airlock bubbles less then once ever minute or so...(shurggs) I dont get alot of bottle explosions, to date olny 2 which were acidental (I actully have made trick bottles for kicks with half crimped caps so they shoot off) and actully that was because my cider was in bottles which upon close examination were already showing signs of stress before bottleing... Also i clear my cider by racking through out the fermenting process and allowing yeast to fall out and then after a time reracking... i have been told this causes incomplete fermentation and a lower ABV, also i have i am ashamed to say resorted to filteration sevral times to clear cider as well as chemical clearing agents... your probably right about why i have to go through all this extra work but i think its more a question of style and not recamended proceedure... Thankx for the head up though, i dont mind a bit of constructive critism

Cheers

You are right about priming sugar, but there is reasoning behind it. If you ferment to completion, you know there are no more sugars for your yeast to consume, so any priming sugar you add is all that the yeast have to eat. Therefore you can get nearly exactly the level of carbonation you want, without risk of bottle bombs. If you stop early, you really can't know how much sugar is left, because you don't know how dry the yeast will take that particular brew. Also, basing the completion of fermentation on airlock activity alone is quite inaccurate. You could have a stuck fermentation, that once racked could renewed with tons of sugar left to eat up in the bottle. Or as you said, cider and mead ferment very slowly. If treated properly, they can kick off real strong in the beginning, eating most of the sugars quickly, but can take months to take out those last few points. If it is taking months to finish fermenting, clearing there won't be much airlock activity.

I am going to bury it in the pantry and just leave it for a while. It's still under the month mark, so I will learn to be patient and just relax. I will pick up a hydrometer later and test further in. My understanding is, it won't hurt to leave it in the fermenting container and let it age there, so that buys me lots of time and flexibility. I'll also keep an eye out for glass jub cider specials and pick up a gallon if there is a good sale on non-presevative cider.

Ah, question that's been brewing in my mind... I was wondering that, if it would clear up again, wx it would be useful to agitate to stir up any undigested sugars. Is that an issue? From a couple of that I've read, I take it that agitation of some fermenting liquids is not desirable at this point -- but I haven't seen anything specifically that says for cider, "make sure you don't resuspend the gunk in the bottom" or "slosh the bottle/carboy around to get all the little yeasties woken up and digesting again".

It isn't a matter of getting the yeast back into suspension, that isn't much of a bad thing. In time, they will just all fall back to the bottom. The reason you want to avoid agitation, is because you will add oxygen to your brew and that will lead to oxidation, which will make your cider taste like cardboard.

Well that's a good enough reason for me. I made the mistake to trying to consume too much information from too many diff't posts. I even read some beer posts and wine posts. One post mentioned making sure that there was oxygen in the juice to help the yeast, so of course, I did that. Well, live and learn I guess.

I can see that this would be an addictive hobby. All it will take is one reasonably tasty result, and I'd be starting a new batch every month, while I sip my way through the batch started "x" months ago.

A little longer, a little shorter, a little more sugar, and little less, some blueberry, some back sweetening... yep, it definitely sounds like it would be a consuming passion.

Thanks.

My bad, I should have been more specific. Yeast do need oxygen early in the fermentation stage. It helps them reproduce and go to work, stronger and faster. My reference to oxidation is more geared towards after say the first third of the sugars is consumed by the yeast.

You made no mistake, take in as much information as possible. You will hear conflicting opinions, but the more you know, the better your brew.

I am really psyched about this. I can't wait until these puppies get some age on them... I wish this part was a video game where I could turn the clock forward.

I will get to check my other batch Monday night... I'll take a little taste of the over-flow batch.

Last time I visited the LHBS, I picked up some Nottingham yeast on the recommendation of the proprietor. If I can find a good, inexpensive apple juice/cider in a gallon jug at the store, I may start my next batch.

Thanks for clearing up the agitation/oxygenation issue. I am glad I didn't deal hosation on my first round. That would have put a big crimp in my enthusiasm.

While reading another series of posts, I came across another question. When I do decide to rack off the batch up north, can't I just pour more cider/juice over the lees to continue using that yeast? That batch has a nice vibrance and flavor.

I also culture kefir (a wierd enough hobby in itself) and when doing kefir, you basically keep the same colony of bacteria going all the time, pouring off the fermented milk and adding new on top of the grains.

For kefir, this is standard procedure. I haven't read enough to know if this is counter-recommended for cider / beer / etc. FTR, I am only interested in cider.

You can do a search on this forum on washing yeast, I have never done it with ciders since the yeast cake is rather small, and dry wine yeast is rather inexpensive compared to liquid beer yeast. But reusing the yeast cake is possible for a couple of batches, but not forever.

This has proven very useful to me and has resulted in simple experimentation becoming 'logical' experimentation: Got Mead - Mead (honeywine) making, mead drinking, mead recipes - Mead Making Calculator
Typical cider is about 1.045 sg, for reference. I can't imagine using store bought apple juice for a happy-fun-cider...after all, if you want a quality product, you should probably start with one. Find whatever cider is in your area, and call the maker and ask how it was pasteurized, if its cold pasteured it still tastes good (UV light) if its heat pasteured it probably tastes like ballsac and you should avoid it. I don't use chemicals to dick over the wild yeast but rather, I add too much of my own yeast (not from my body) to overpower the natural yeast. Some ppl might disagree with this, but it works. In conclusion, get a hydrometer and use it, but not too frequently because you'll increase the likelihood of contamination or airborne yeasts penetrating your defenses and screwing you over.

Yes, I have read the yeast washing, and while it's fascinating, I thought that was used if you wanted to set yeast aside (long time between fermentations?). I was thinking about the "never ending batches" that some people do with kombucha (?) tea and the kefir and what not..

Actually, as easy as it is to set up cider, I gues it wouldn't buy you much in the way of time
-- (set up, time to high fermentation activity, etc.)
and would probably do more to put the yeast culture at risk
-- (opening the remaining cider/lees to air, etc.)
than be of any value. It was just a thought.

I am going to have to find a regular non-perservative apple juice in a gallon sized glass jug... I want to start another batch.

Hey, how rare is it for people to serve out of a gallon jug instead of bottle in x-ounce bottles? Is that a pathogen/bacteria risk to the remaining cider? Do campden tablets prevent vinegar? Would that be a valid way to both halting fermentation and protecting against air-borne (vinegar) bacteria in the event that I wanted to "jug it"?

I seriously didn't think I had this many questions, but everything I read makes me think of something else.

coldrice said:

This has proven very useful to me a...: Mead (honeywine) making...

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I originally thought I would like to make mead, but every commercial mead I tried was too beery to me. I am not a beer man. I know, "more's the pitty". It sounds like pretty much everybody that does beer is a happy camper/brewer.

coldrice said:

Typical cider is about 1.045 sg, for reference. I can't imagine using store bought apple juice for a happy-fun-cider...after all

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I agree that the freshest is probably the best. I got two gallons from the orchard in October, and that's what I have to work with in the way of "real cider". I will probably be trying subsequent experiments w/ standard store-bought. Sometimes, ya just have to go with what you got (or can get).

coldrice said:

call the maker and ask how it was pasteurized, if its cold pasteured it still tastes good (UV light)

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Un-pasteurized... one of my experiments is on the natural yeasts.

coldrice said:

if its heat pasteured it probably tastes like ballsac and you should avoid it.

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OK, I gotta ask... no, I can't. I'm still a newb and guest here, so I'll divert. Ballsac, is that a french wine? ;-)

coldrice said:

I don't use chemicals to dick over the wild yeast but rather, I add too much of my own yeast (not from my body) to overpower the natural yeast.

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And that's the other part of my home experiment... I didn't have campden tablets, and I just couldn't wait another day. No, really. My wife asked me, and everything. So I pitched a container of yeast on top of the cider & brown sugar. I have no idea wx that was the best idea, but that's what is in that bottle.

Up north, I did the more standard technique... bought an apple juice (past., but not preserved), added brown sugar, and pitched a packet on top. It was bubbling nicely when I left last Thursday.

I am going to see if I can sneak more apple juice into the cart when we go shopping tomorrow. ;-) It's not to early to start another batch, I think.

My big problem is finding cider here, I bought two gallons at a natural foods place on sale, for 12 dollars a gallon. Not going to bother with that again.
Even the Walmart treetop stuff is pretty expensive here, at least 25$ just for the juice.
Well, tis the season, maybe I'll be able to find some good sales so I can start my next batch. I spent a good portion of this holiday bottling to clear up kegs and carboys.

Yeah, between finding non-preservative stuff and finding not-expensive stuff, it is irritating. Who would have thought that processed apple juice would be so expensive. Between the economy and the season, I would think that apple juice prices would be a lot more reasonable.

I guess from a serving-size stand point, 8 oz of apple juice is only 31 cents, but still...

Hey, anybody have a weigh-in on the storing / service cider in gallon jugs, and wx campden tablets protect against vinegar?

I'm not really set up for bottling, and don't know how far I'd want to pursue that. I guess I should at least look into it, but I am really interesting in having a bottle that I could keep in the 'fridge to pour from. A couple of 4 oz servings a night would get me two weeks on a gallon.

Dang, another quex: How much do you usually lose on the lees? You don't siphon off to that level, because you'd get sediment getting sucked up. Also, what do you DO w/ the left over... can you re-settle the lees into a thinner container and get more off the top? I assume you wouldn't want to drink the lees, but I would hate to waste the cider that they sit in. I am thinking "coffee filter"... hmm...

Rack off the bulk, and re-set the fermentation lock, pour the remaining fluid and lees into a connical filter w/ a melitta paper filter, and drink the cider while you wash the equipment? :-D

I don't go to any lengths to keep all that at the bottom. There really isn't that much left behind if you've propped up your fermenter so its on an angle. Plus, if you move your bucket up to its high point on the counter or table a couple hours before you get to work on it, you don't lose much product. If you're really attached to it, though, I'd say dip a bagel in it or something...