Barleywine Issues

I'm posting this here because in a previous thread, I was asked to post the recipe I'm working with, in order to get some things sorted out, but it looks like that thread went dead after I posted the recipe. So, it's below. The major questions I have are:

1. Am I not supposed to pitch my secondary (champagne) yeast & dry hops when I rack to secondary? Some people (before viewing the recipe) advised me to add the champagne yeast only at bottling time and the dry hops one or two weeks before bottling.

2. Does anything look wrong here?

Thanks.

Ingredients:
13.2 lb. Northwestern Extra Light Extract
1 lb. Cara Munich II 40-50*L
1 lb. Cara Belge 11.7-15.5*L
1 lb. Turbinado sugar
1 oz. Galena hop pellets
3 oz. Centennial hop pellets
2 tsp. yeast nutrient
2 11.5g. packets Safbrew S-33 dry ale yeast
2 5g packets EC-1118 champagne yeast

1. Fill brewpot 3/4 full, place on stove and heat to 160*F
2. Steep the grains for 30 min between 150-160*F
3. Remove grains & do not wring out bag
4. Bring this to a boil, then remove and add 6.6 lb. softened extract, stirring in and dissolving completely
5. Return to heat and add Galena hops, maintaining rolling boil for 60 minutes
6. At 15 minutes left, remove from heat and add 6.6 lb softened extract, 1 lb. turbinado sugar, and 2 tsp. yeast nutrient, stirring in and dissolving
7. At 5 minutes left, add 1.5 oz. Centennial hops
8. At end of boil, remove from heat, stir vigorously for several minutes, and let stand 15 minutes
9. Force cool to 75*F and rack into fermenter, topping off to 5 gallons w/cold (preboiled or bottled) water
10. Add hydrated yeast and aerate well
11. Ferment at 65-70*F, with blowoff tube, until krausen has fallen
12. Rack to secondary, with blowoff tube, adding dry hops (1.5oz. Centennial) & 2 packages EC-1118 yeast
13. I'm not clear on how long they said in the secondary, I think 3-4 weeks, at least until fermentation is done
14. Transfer to bottling bucket w/priming sugar solution, bottle
15. Age

Alright, here's the deal. I wouldn't pitch the champagne yeast unless you get a stuck fermentation or you age for a long time in the secondary. There should be plenty of yeast left around to carb the beer after only 1.5 months. However, if you did want to use the champagne yeast to dry the beer out, I would add it in the primary about a week after you pitch the ale yeast and then transfer the beer when you get two consecutive hydrometer readings (the same reading two days in a row showing that the fermentation is complete.) The reason being, is because you want to get all of the flavors that ale yeast create, but the dryness that the champagne yeast creates. The recipe looks fine to me btw.

hope that helps,
J

good looking recipe and timetable. Looks quite similar to a barleywine I did last xmas. a few notes from my experience that might help. First, use a blowoff on your primary, I used a 7 gallon bucket for a five gallon batch and the krausen still plugged my airlock. As far as your dry-hopping schedule, you might want to hold off for a while and let it sit in your secondary. I bulk-aged my barleywine in the secondary carboy for two months before bottling. If you dry-hop right away, your beer will be sitting on the hops for a long time (I've heard that past two weeks you start to get undesirable grassy flavors) In my batch, I added the second batch of yeast at bottling time in with the priming sugar (I had awesome attenuation with my primary yeast pitch, OG of 1.088 got all the way down to 1.012) if you're having attenuation problems and the gravity seems not to be getting down where you want it, then yes go ahead and repitch in your secondary. And lastly for bottling I'd suggest investing the extra couple of bucks for oxygen barrier caps. If you're going to be bottle conditioning this stuff for many months/years it's worth it to have the extra guard against oxidation. I also waxed my caps in the style of Maker's Mark. there's a sticky somewhere here in the forums with a really good recipe for home made capping wax. Good luck with your brew! I just had a taster from mine a few weeks ago and it's coming along nicely. Probably going to wait until x-mas `11 to really start getting into them though.

HalfPint said:

Alright, here's the deal. I wouldn't pitch the champagne yeast unless you get a stuck fermentation or you age for a long time in the secondary. There should be plenty of yeast left around to carb the beer after only 1.5 months. However, if you did want to use the champagne yeast to dry the beer out, I would add it in the primary about a week after you pitch the ale yeast and then transfer the beer when you get two consecutive hydrometer readings (the same reading two days in a row showing that the fermentation is complete.) The reason being, is because you want to get all of the flavors that ale yeast create, but the dryness that the champagne yeast creates. The recipe looks fine to me btw.

hope that helps,
J

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I'm not necessarily looking to dry out the brew, but I would like to hit 11-12%. I was thinking of bulk aging, but do you think bottling earlier is better? Obviously it's an advantage to have the carboy freed up, but otherwise?

NyPDFustercluck said:

good looking recipe and timetable. Looks quite similar to a barleywine I did last xmas. a few notes from my experience that might help. First, use a blowoff on your primary, I used a 7 gallon bucket for a five gallon batch and the krausen still plugged my airlock. As far as your dry-hopping schedule, you might want to hold off for a while and let it sit in your secondary. I bulk-aged my barleywine in the secondary carboy for two months before bottling. If you dry-hop right away, your beer will be sitting on the hops for a long time (I've heard that past two weeks you start to get undesirable grassy flavors) In my batch, I added the second batch of yeast at bottling time in with the priming sugar (I had awesome attenuation with my primary yeast pitch, OG of 1.088 got all the way down to 1.012) if you're having attenuation problems and the gravity seems not to be getting down where you want it, then yes go ahead and repitch in your secondary. And lastly for bottling I'd suggest investing the extra couple of bucks for oxygen barrier caps. If you're going to be bottle conditioning this stuff for many months/years it's worth it to have the extra guard against oxidation. I also waxed my caps in the style of Maker's Mark. there's a sticky somewhere here in the forums with a really good recipe for home made capping wax. Good luck with your brew! I just had a taster from mine a few weeks ago and it's coming along nicely. Probably going to wait until x-mas `11 to really start getting into them though.

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Okay, I'll wait until two weeks before bottling to dry hop. And to confirm, if I pitch secondary yeast at bottling time (2 packets of champagne yeast), that isn't going to cause explosions or a heavy yeast taste?

I will probably get the oxygen barrier caps, though I don't think this brew will last very long once it is nice and drinkable. I am pretty new to brewing, this is my first barleywine, and it's my wife's and my favorite style, so I'll probably wait until the second time around to really age some for a long time.

Thanks for the advice

If you're worried about the brew not attenuating to 10-11% abv, I'd just use a different yeast and ditch the champagne yeast all together. If you want to stick with dry, I know S-04 and S-05 will make it beyond that. I used S-33 once and wasn't thrilled with it, but its suppose to handle up to 11.5%, so it should be ok without the champagne yeast.

Wavewalker said:

Okay, I'll wait until two weeks before bottling to dry hop. And to confirm, if I pitch secondary yeast at bottling time (2 packets of champagne yeast), that isn't going to cause explosions or a heavy yeast taste?

I will probably get the oxygen barrier caps, though I don't think this brew will last very long once it is nice and drinkable. I am pretty new to brewing, this is my first barleywine, and it's my wife's and my favorite style, so I'll probably wait until the second time around to really age some for a long time.

Thanks for the advice

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when I added yeast at bottling time (1 packet us-04) I didnt notice any extremely yeasty flavor upon opening a taster. the only reason I did this at all was to make sure there was healthy yeast available for carbonation as my bulk aging took two months in the secondary at ~10% abv and I wasnt sure the original us-04 had anything left. You dont have to worry about bottle bombs as long as you've fermented out everything you can before bottling, the priming sugar alone wont be enough to cause problems. To answer your bulk aging concern, yes bottles are fine to condition in if you really need the carboy. Its still going to probably have to be in there 1+ months anyway to finish fermenting all the way out.

Bottling: you wont get yeasty flavors from the yeast you add at bottling (except maybe if you use Champagne yeast). All of the fermentable sugars have been eaten by your ale yeast. So, when you add additional ale yeast (S04 is nice b/c it flocc's really well) there aren't any sugars to eat besides the ones you add (ie priming sugar)

Aging: I like to bulk age for a couple of months just out of habit on my large beers. But I suppose as long as fermentation is done, then you can bottle and age there.

Alcohol %: it seems that your yeast are dead, and at the 10% you're at now, you wont get any more points unless you pitch the champagne yeast b/c that can eat other sugars normal brewer's yeast cannot. If I were you, I would not pitch it. 1012 is a very fine FG for a BW. The main diff btwn an BW and a IIPA is the maltiness/dryness. IIPAs are supposed to be dry, BW's are supposed to be malty. If you ferment it much more you might not enjoy the beer b/c it is straddeling the line btwn BW and IIPA (I have a beer like this, and although it is OK, it doesnt taste right b/c it has no identity).

coypoo said:

Bottling: you wont get yeasty flavors from the yeast you add at bottling (except maybe if you use Champagne yeast). All of the fermentable sugars have been eaten by your ale yeast. So, when you add additional ale yeast (S04 is nice b/c it flocc's really well) there aren't any sugars to eat besides the ones you add (ie priming sugar)

Aging: I like to bulk age for a couple of months just out of habit on my large beers. But I suppose as long as fermentation is done, then you can bottle and age there.

Alcohol %: it seems that your yeast are dead, and at the 10% you're at now, you wont get any more points unless you pitch the champagne yeast b/c that can eat other sugars normal brewer's yeast cannot. If I were you, I would not pitch it. 1012 is a very fine FG for a BW. The main diff btwn an BW and a IIPA is the maltiness/dryness. IIPAs are supposed to be dry, BW's are supposed to be malty. If you ferment it much more you might not enjoy the beer b/c it is straddeling the line btwn BW and IIPA (I have a beer like this, and although it is OK, it doesnt taste right b/c it has no identity).

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That's interesting. I really like IIPAs, but I'm going for a BW here, so I'll try it without the champagne yeast.

Thanks for the tips, everyone. I'm feeling ready to move forward with the brew now.

coypoo said:

unless you pitch the champagne yeast b/c that can eat other sugars normal brewer's yeast cannot. .

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you got it backwards. brewer's yeast can eat sugars that champagne yeast can't, champagne yeast just has a higher tolerance which is why its good for use as a bottling yeast.