a little confused...

Usually, I use dry yeast... Doing 10-11g batches and pouring 1 pack in each 6.5g carboy...

So this time I decided to try a yeast starter with liquid yeast (WLP002)..

Made the starter in a mason jar, it fermented for a little less than 3 days in my fermentation chamber before pitching.... It was still producing gas,,, had a nice 1/2" or better yeast cake on the bottom...

So after the brew yesterday, I took off the airlock, replaced the mason jar airlock top with a sanitized solid top, and shook the crap out of it... Everything seemed 'definitely suspended'... no yeast cake at all on the bottom..

Poured half of it into a sanitized measuring cup and pitched it into one carboy... Replaced the lid, shook the crap out of it again and then poured the rest into the measuring cup and pitched it into the other carboy....

Shook the crap out of both carboys for a good minute each to aerate like I do with the dry yeast (place the carboy on it's side on my knee and rock it back and forth to get the liquid sloshing and foaming violently)..

I pitched the yeast at 9:15 pm last night both wort and yeast at 68 degrees... Raised the fermentation temp to 70 degrees when I went to bed at midnight.. No obvious fermentation at that time, but the second carboy was showing signs of producing gas...

This morning, the second carboy is flocculating nicely, no activity at all from the first.... Shouldn't they be acting 'identical?'

You would think so,but not uncommon for them not to.

BrewerBear said:

You would think so,but not uncommon for them not to.

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Okay.. That's what I was hoping to hear..

If nothing is happening by tomorrow afternoon, I'll either pitch one of the dry yeast packs or I'll make the 50 mile trek to town for some more WLP002..

Thanks!

Nevermind...

Before I posted the original post, I gave the non-responsive carboy a bit of a rocking...

Just went back and looked, and 'all' of the trub has floated to the top and looks a bit flocculated on the bottom of the floating trub ..... So evidently there's 'something' going on...

It should be okay....

Hoping the liquid yeast makes my beer even better!

If I'm reading this right, you used a single smack pack, in a mason jar sized starter, to ferment a 10 gallon batch? An I reading that correctly? What was the OG, and just how big was the mason jar? Unless the OG was very low, and/or the mason jar very large, I can't imagine that you didn't grossly under pitch. I'm impressed that one of your fermenters took off as quickly as it did...

stratslinger said:

If I'm reading this right, you used a single smack pack, in a mason jar sized starter, to ferment a 10 gallon batch? An I reading that correctly? What was the OG, and just how big was the mason jar? Unless the OG was very low, and/or the mason jar very large, I can't imagine that you didn't grossly under pitch. I'm impressed that one of your fermenters took off as quickly as it did...

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Not a smack pack, but a vial...

I used 24oz in a single mason jar... After three days of fermenting, there was easily several times as much yeast cake as in the original vial (which is supposed to be enough for 5g, right?).. So each carboy got 12 oz.. well actually, the slow one might have gotten slightly less, and the other one slightly more...

OG = 64 (post boil)

Here's the original mason jar with yeast cake prior to pitching






And here's the two carboys now.. The one on the left is the slow poke..

Should I have made two mason jars and split the vial between them or what?

Looks like you may have had a big enough starter for one batch, but probably not two. The liquid yeast vials are *not* enough for a 5gal batch unless it is a low gravity. Use mrmalty or yeastcalc next time.

Easy, one carboy got all the kettle trub, one didn't. There may very well be more nutrients in the one with trub, which will help the yeast get going. Remember, no two fermentations are the same, even if it's a split batch with the same yeast, the two carboys may not act or look the same.

r8rphan said:

Usually, I use dry yeast... Doing 10-11g batches and pouring 1 pack in each 6.5g carboy...

So this time I decided to try a yeast starter with liquid yeast (WLP002)..

.... it fermented for a little less than 3 days in my fermentation chamber before pitching...

Click to expand...

Keep in mind that the purpose of making a starter is to maximize the live cell count. When food (sugar) becomes scarce the yeast start to flocculate...thus the yeast cake you see on the bottom. Better to pitch your yeast starter when it is still very active.

I usually make a starter early on the morning of brew day and by the time I am ready to pitch, in the afternoon, it is churning along nicely.

Something I learned this past brewing season, is that not all strains of yeast should be made into a starter. For example, some of the Fermentis dry yeast they specifically recommend not to -- unfortunately I learned that after I had already made a starter and the end result was off flavors in my brew (form over-pitching I assume).

The trub was split pretty evenly (they get filled simultaneoulsy), but the one on the right has already broken it all up into small stuff...

Once the stuff gets going, it should produce enough yeast to do what it needs right?

So I guess I should have split the vial between two mason jars and made twice as much starter...
Will have to check out yeast calc....

Curtis2010 said:

Keep in mind that the purpose of making a starter is to maximize the live cell count. When food (sugar) becomes scarce the yeast start to flocculate...thus the yeast cake you see on the bottom. Better to pitch your yeast starter when it is still very active.

I usually make a starter early on the morning of brew day and by the time I am ready to pitch, in the afternoon, it is churning along nicely.

Something I learned this past brewing season, is that not all strains of yeast should be made into a starter. For example, some of the Fermentis dry yeast they specifically recommend not to -- unfortunately I learned that after I had already made a starter and the end result was off flavors in my brew (form over-pitching I assume).

Click to expand...

I might be misunderstanding/misusing the term "flocculate".... I always assumed it was the large 'globules' of Trub that start forming and floating around.. I guess because that is what most looked like the term..LOL

I always thought that the yeast cake 'was' live yeast....

I knew there'd be some learning involved in this as always when I add a new step or technique to by brewing...

r8rphan said:

The trub was split pretty evenly (they get filled simultaneoulsy), but the one on the right has already broken it all up into small stuff...

Once the stuff gets going, it should produce enough yeast to do what it needs right?

So I guess I should have split the vial between two mason jars and made twice as much starter...
Will have to check out yeast calc....

Click to expand...

Yes. Your yeasties will probably take longer to reach the amount of cells needed to properly ferment the wort, but they're biologically programmed to eat fermentable sugars - so you're fine.

thasnazzle said:

Yes. Your yeasties will probably take longer to reach the amount of cells needed to properly ferment the wort, but they're biologically programmed to eat fermentable sugars - so you're fine.

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So then, as I was guessing, the whole point of making a starter is just to 'ensure' it has enough live yeast to 'get going' right?

IMO, your starter was too small. Depending on how fresh the yeast was, it could have been really small. IF you had used a stirplate, it might have been enough, IF the yeast was also only a few weeks old (at most).

Use yeastcalc.com to figure out what size starter you really need for the batch, depending on the OG, size, yeast date, and aeration method. With your batch parameters, you would have needed a 13L starter (if no aeration, and a single starter) for the batch. This is assuming the yeast is no more than a few weeks old (set the date to the start of this month). That drops to ~5.5L if you used a stirplate. If you did a stepped starter, you could have done it with a pair of 1.5L starters (let the first finish, cold crash, decant, pour fresh starter wort on top, and let it go again) on a stirplate.

BTW, using a stirplate also means the starter will be finished in under 24 hours. You can then cold crash it for 12-24 hours so that you have a nice yeast cake on the bottom.

With what you did, you only got up into the 130 billion cell range (rounding the starter size up to 1L, even though it was less). While that's better than no starter at all, it's far short of the 445 billion cells you should have pitched.

r8rphan said:

I might be misunderstanding/misusing the term "flocculate".... I always assumed it was the large 'globules' of Trub that start forming and floating around.. I guess because that is what most looked like the term..LOL

I always thought that the yeast cake 'was' live yeast....

I knew there'd be some learning involved in this as always when I add a new step or technique to by brewing...

Click to expand...

As I understand it, yeast starts to flocculate when it is becoming less active. After 3 days your yeastie-beasties probably had consumed most of the sugars in a small container and went dormant. However, I suspect there would still be lots of viable yeast in the cake. Exposing them to lots of new food, by dumping them into the wort, should get them active again (just like it does from the vial), but it may take a while for the cell count build up to vigorous fermentation levels.

r8rphan said:

So then, as I was guessing, the whole point of making a starter is just to 'ensure' it has enough live yeast to 'get going' right?

Click to expand...

Right. If you don't pitch enough, your yeast will be stressed. ThIs creates off flavors.

r8rphan said:

So then, as I was guessing, the whole point of making a starter is just to 'ensure' it has enough live yeast to 'get going' right?

Click to expand...

No, the whole point of making a starter is to 'ensure' that you're pitching enough yeast for your beer, based on gravity and batch size.

r8rphan said:

So then, as I was guessing, the whole point of making a starter is just to 'ensure' it has enough live yeast to 'get going' right?

Click to expand...

NordeastBrewer77 said:

No, the whole point of making a starter is to 'ensure' that you're pitching enough yeast for your beer, based on gravity and batch size.

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Making the correct starter size is why there are sites dedicated to calculating that for you. It's also why we use stirplates and flasks for starters (those of us that take it serious at least). While your small starter (IMO, anything under a 1L, single step, starter is small) for a 10 gallon batch had minimal impact. Without knowing exactly how you split the batch into the two fermenters (didn't see that posted) you could have different trub in either primary.

Personally, I make my starters on my stirplate, on the kitchen counter. Depending on what I'm brewing, and the starter size I need, I'll either make a single starter in my 2L or 3L flask, or make a dual step starter. Only difference between them is making two smaller starters to get to the same cell count level. As I mentioned before, you can get the same amount of cells from two smaller starters than one huge starter (more than the combined total of the two smaller starters). It has to do with how yeast multiplies and such. There's actual science behind this.

The reasons I homebrew are (loosely in order)

1) Save money.. While there is some up front cost and the cost of occasional upgrades, I figure that I save at least $100 when I brew as opposed to buying beer at the store...

2) Satisfaction.. I made it myself.. bragging rights.. plus it gets it all out from under govt control/regulation.. and the more of my life that I can do of that, the happier I am.... No taxes, recycling fees, etc...

3) I like my own beer better than what I buy.. There are a couple exceptions and not 'all' batches succeed at this, but for the most part it is true.. Thus far, have not made an 'undrinkable' batch.. far from it....

4) It's fun! One of the most enjoyable hobbies I've ever gotten into... Let's me combine all sorts of interests in one hobby.. country living, beer, DIY fabricating, science, saving money, telling the govt to take a hike, etc...

So with 'saving money' at the top of the list, I have been using dry yeast because two packs of dry yeast are cheaper than one vial of liquid yeast... It's also less hassle...

However, I want to save more money by saving and reusing yeast... I figured the first step to that was to learn to make a liquid yeast starter... So now, after this attempt, I am not afraid of this, and as long as the beer is drinkable and 'decent'.. it will be a success...

The next batch will be my first 'kolsch' so that will also be a liquid yeast... I guess I have three weeks to learn to use a yeast calc and how to arrive at the figures need for inputting the variables...

The other reason I've been wanting to start using liquid yeast is so that I can hopefully get closer to making an accurate clone of my favorite beer (STONE IPA).. I have tried several clone attempts, and while all good, none were quite 'there'....

Anyways, that's kinda what this is all about for me right now.. learning... Don't want to outright 'fail' and have to throw beer out (hasn't happened yet over the 2-3 years of brewing I've done.. had to 'blend before though to fix some big mistakes), but I don't mind making a few mistakes as long as I learn something from them....

A stir plate will likely happen at some point, but the next priority is adding a RIMS tube to the set up....

For now, I need to edumacate myself on how to 'count' yeasties (one, two, three, four.. LOL) and then figure out how many I need and how to make 'em...

Second year of growing hops, so hopefully by the end of next year, I will be getting the majority of my hops for free....

Getting there little by little... Before ya know it, I'll be a master brewer!

If you're always making 10 gallon batches, then make the stirplate the top priority. Otherwise, you'll need to make giant starters in order to supply the batches with even close to the yeast cell count.

Learning to use the yeast calc shouldn't take more than a few minutes (max)... Either make, or buy, a stirplate. Get either a 2L or 3L flask or something that has a flat bottom and is of the same capacity. Using two step starters (or even three step) means you'll be able to use smaller starter amounts (on a stirplate) than trying to make a starter without the stirplate. Cold crashing the starter between will allow you to decant the spent starter wort easily and get you where you want to go cheaper (less DME used).

I would make your next 'upgrade' a way to infuse the wort with enough O2 for the yeast to be less stressed during their reproduction phase (the time before you start seeing excess CO2 being vented out of the fermenter). Without sufficient amounts of O2 in the wort, the cell walls won't be very healthy/strong, and your harvested yeast will be sub-par.

Get the Yeast book and read up about properly handling/treating the yeast in order to get better beer. It's all of ~$12 on Amazon right now.

I can possibly see perhaps getting a stir plate and flask quickly (because that's not too pricey), but oxygen injection will probably have to wait a bit... Too many things to buy, too little moola....

I gotta get my mash day under control first... I'm at a point where I need the RIMS...

I have an airstone and pump that I can use for a while if I gotta.. but it's kind of a PITA..

I already have the yeast book on my wish list at amazon and plan to buy it 'soon'

Since you already have the air stone, you can get this regulator from Amazon that connects to standard O2 tanks (welding type). A small welding tank will last you a LONG time (20 cubic foot capacity). I had the welding supply shop provide me with a swivel nut to connect standard 3/16" ID Bevlex hose to the regulator (cost maybe a buck). The tank will cost you a bit, initially, but then you just swap it out once you've used it up. Cheap after the initial expense.

I direct fire my mash tun (a converted keg) so I don't have a need for a RIMS setup. I've also been working on my mash process of late. I've pretty much got it nailed down now.

r8rphan said:

I can possibly see perhaps getting a stir plate and flask quickly (because that's not too pricey), but oxygen injection will probably have to wait a bit... Too many things to buy, too little moola....

Click to expand...

I aerate my wort with an aquarium pump (~$12) and sanitized airstones (you can get packs of 3-5 for a few dollars. The stones don't last incredibly long, but the process aerates the wort sufficiently (IMO) and gives me peace of mind.
FWIW, I don't use a stir plate for starters, I aerate with the pump before pitching, a while after pitching and swirl every couple hours after that. Works well, but starter size becomes an issue with bigger beers and lagers, a stir plate is high on my list of future purchases.

I have an extra argon/CO2 tank for my welder that maybe I can talk them into swapping out for an oxygen tank..

How long do you have to blast the wort with the oxygen/air stone?

r8rphan said:

I have an extra argon/CO2 tank for my welder that maybe I can talk them into swapping out for an oxygen tank..

How long do you have to blast the wort with the oxygen/air stone?

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I typically hit the wort with 60-120 seconds of pure O2 at 1-2lpm. How much and how long are determined by the OG of the batch. Lower OG batches are hit with less than higher OG batches. Really high OG batches, sometimes get a second hit 12-18 hours after pitching.

I plan on getting an actual O2 meter, like this one so that I can get an actual O2 ppm level once I've infused the wort. I'll make a spreadsheet of the different OG, lpm and time of infusion and resulting ppm in order to get a better idea of what I really need to give a batch. After a while, I'll be able to just reference that (or remember the parameters) and not need to take readings of the infused wort. It's going to be a fun experiment.

Both vessels are fermenting nicely now... Beer is churning like crazy, starting to build up krausen, lots of CO2 production....

No matter what, at least now I know that it will be 'beer!'

r8rphan said:

Both vessels are fermenting nicely now... Beer is churning like crazy, starting to build up krausen, lots of CO2 production....

No matter what, at least now I know that it will be 'beer!'

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You'll almost always get beer... If you give the yeast what it really needs, from the start, it will be easier to get GREAT beer. :rockin: