Bru'n water

I did a search and it looked like no one has mentioned this yet, so forgive me if there's another thread about this already.

I just downloaded Bru'n Water, from https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

It's really the best water calculator I've used, and it actually gives useful mash pH calculations. I hit my target pH on the nose in one shot!

Sorry for not posting on this forum earlier. I've been a long time HBD subscriber and AHA member and Tech Talk subscriber, but I'm relatively new to the various forums.

Bru'n Water is unique in that it goes beyond the typical brewing water calculator. It allows the brewer to input the actual grain billed used in the mash and estimate its total acidity. That acidity is contrasted with the alkalinity provided by the mashing water and is used to estimate a mash pH. This is a much more exacting approach to pH estimation. Mash pH does have to strong influence on the fermentability, body, and crispness of the finished beer.

In addition, the program includes a comprehensive section on Water Knowledge to help the brewer understand what they're doing and how to accomplish their brewing goals.

I invite interested brewers to take a look at the program at the link shown in my signature line below. The program is an Excel spreadsheet, but anyone can install the open-source software Open Office that will also run the program.

Enjoy.

I used this today for the first time....outstanding. So much better than the other ones out there. Thanks for putting the time and effort into this!

Martin, I hope you don't mind that I shared the link here. I found your thread on the AHA forums and was seriously impressed with your spreadsheet.

I've been playing with the spreadsheet a little now and have a question regarding mash pH. The spreadsheet states that mash pH is 0.3 lower at 150F than at room temp. So if I want my mash pH to be 5.2-5.8, do I want my room temperature measurement to read 5.5-6.1 or do I want it to read 5.2-5.8. I understand that you should take pH readings at room temp, but I don't know if I need to compensate for the 0.3.

In other words, is "mash pH" the pH of the mash at the current mash temp or the pH of the mash when brought to room temp?

Thanks

The "Mash pH" value that the spreadsheet gives you is for the pH measured at room temp.

Nateo said:

The "Mash pH" value that the spreadsheet gives you is for the pH measured at room temp.

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So what is the desired range for room temp pH? 5.2-5.8 ?

A brewer does not need to worry about what the actual pH in the mash is at its typical mashing temperature. That pH is actually 0.2 to 0.35 units lower than what you would measure at room-temperature. But, its difficult to measure the mash pH at mash temperature and its very hard on the pH meter. Therefore, the industry has settled on measuring and evaluating mash pH based on its room-temperature measurement. A sample is taken from the mash and cooled to room-temp before pH measurement. As AJ has mentioned previously, numerous texts and articles mention mash pH ranges, but they sometimes fail to mention that these are based on their room-temp pH measurement. These authors fail to mention it since its a generally accepted method and procedure that they apparently feel does not need mention.

The desirable room-temp pH range for a mash is roughly 5.2 to 5.8, but most brewers tighten that to between 5.3 and 5.5. Bru'n Water includes numerous mentions throughout the instructions, the calculation sheets, and the Water Knowledge section that all pH measurement is at Room Temperature.

Thanks mabrungard!

I think my biggest confusion was that Bru'n Water does a great job of mentioning that mash pH is for room temp, but a lot of other sources I have read do not. So I did not know that it was a industry convention to use room temp mash pH.

I look forward to using the spreadsheet during my next brewing session.

Thanks.

I gotta be honest, I found the calculator to be totally overwhelming. I'm sticking with the EZ water calculator. I guess i'm a dope.

Not in any way to detract from mabrungard's hard work.


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One thing to keep in mind, the spreadsheet doesn't allow negative RA values, as you would get with acid additions, so the lowest my pH will go according to the spreadsheet is 5.6.

I didn't notice this, and added a bit more lactic acid than I really needed. It was for a Wit, so a bit of lactic will taste good.

The negative RA thing is a known issue.

I'm probably not understanding it but when I made an ESB a week and a half ago I got something that seemed strange. I'm going from memory so some numbers/details might be a little off.

I wanted to mash 'almost no-sparge' so...lots of water. When I entered everything I got a red flag saying 'More mash water alkalinity is needed'. The Net Mash Acidity was around 50 and the predicted mash pH was 5.5. If I entered a more reasonable mash volume it showed a lower NMA and lower predicted mash pH and no red flag. That seemed strange that the result that had the higher predicted mash pH red-flagged me to add more mash alkalinity (which would raise it even higher).

I tried to recreate what I did in the spreadsheet back when I made the beer but I can't get it exactly the way I had it (the red flag doesn't come up). I think I have it saved on another computer. Also, apparently my water report is not balanced, I'm getting like 1.18 Cation/Anion ratio.

Version 1.5 of Bru'n Water has been uploaded and is ready for downloading.

Enhancements include:


Revised Mash pH algorithm
Mash and Sparge Additions Totals
Sparging Water Recommendations
User Customizable Water Profile fields
Advice for Water Report Troubleshooting
Water Report Units Convertor
More Notes throughout
Enhanced Instructions
Additional Water Knowledge


Enjoy

Great spreadsheet Martin!

Thanks for all the hard work. Would you happen to know if there is a limit to the amount of calcium hydroxide you can use to treat water? After searching around I've found out it's used in some drinking water to adjust pH, and harmless in small amounts. Also found out it can be dangerous to ingest undiluted, although I hope no one plans on doing that. I've found its easier to use just Ca(OH)2 to raise my alkalinity for darker beers usually. Any issue if lets say an RIS water profile has me using nearly 1/2 gm per gallon?

Thank you

Calcium hydroxide is routinely used to soften drinking water by increasing the water pH above 10 which reduces the solubility of calcium carbonate and it precipitates from solution. If the pH is increased further to above 11, the solubility of magnesium carbonate is reduced and it also precipitates. So, calcium hydroxide is safe excepting for its caustic action. The softened water then has to be neutralized to under 9 pH to make it suitable for consumption. The amounts added for mash water alkalinity adjustment are far less than required for the softening duty.

The amount you need to balance your grist's acidity is based on the amount of alkalinity that already exists in your water and the total acidity contributed by the grist. Using 1/2 g per gallon should not pose a problem, but that is a substantial amount by my estimation. I'm assuming the starting water has low alkalinity. If Bru'n Water indicates that is the amount your mash needs, its usually pretty close to right.

Remember, alkalinity increasing minerals like calcium hydroxide (pickling lime), baking soda, or chalk are not to be added to the sparge water. Low alkalinity is always desirable in sparge water.

Yes. I start with a base of RO water, estimating around 13 residual alkalinity by your calculations. Also, the stout is 49 SRM, so pretty dark. I could use baking soda, as I did in the past along with the lime, but the numbers worked better just using lime. It was only enough to adjust the pH by .2, so if that's ok I'll move on as planned.

I just pulled this down today and put in the numbers as best as I could from my city's 2010 metro water report (magnesium was absent so I used the bicarbonate estimator and increased Mg until the ions were balanced).

As a complete noob to water chemistry (I have been a 5.2 user since starting All-Grain), I found this extremely helpful to understand the kinds of adjustments I need to make. I plugged in a couple recipes, adjusted the salts until they all turned green, and I come within 1-2 pH of the optimum range every time.

I have one question though. Two of the salts on there, pickling lime and magnesium chloride, I was only able to make some recipes balance without a distilled water dilution by adding these. Problem is my LHBS, Brewmaster's Warehouse, and Austin Homebrew Supply do not carry these two salts (in fact, my LHBS doesn't even carry Epsom Salt either). Does anyone know if there's an online resource where I could get them?

Version 1.6 has been uploaded which includes a correction to an error that prevented users from entering their own custom water profiles. The mash pH algorithm has also been improved.

OK, I screwed the pooch with v. 1.6. The sparge water check box was protected and the pH equation did not match up with version 1.5 which was known to be a good predictor in the normal mashing pH range. Its fixed too. Version 1.7 is uploaded. Sorry for the run-around!

Thanks for version 1.7!

I just noticed the mention of Rahr base malts potentially being pre-acidified. I am now wondering which homebrew stores use this malt as their base malts in AG kits. I have had several AG kits turn out well and when trying to replicate them with my own bulk ingredients, they did not turn out as well. I have water high in alkalinity and this was before I attempted any water modifications of my own.

Does anyone have further info on this pre-acidified base malt?

novafire said:

Thanks for version 1.7!

I just noticed the mention of Rahr base malts potentially being pre-acidified. I am now wondering which homebrew stores use this malt as their base malts in AG kits. I have had several AG kits turn out well and when trying to replicate them with my own bulk ingredients, they did not turn out as well. I have water high in alkalinity and this was before I attempted any water modifications of my own.

Does anyone have further info on this pre-acidified base malt?

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I must be the only one who found this piece of new info interesting. Or is this common knowledge?

That is information that Kai Troester experimentally determined and posted on the AHA forum. It is relatively new information and I doubt that many brewers are aware of this.

mabrungard said:

That is information that Kai Troester experimentally determined and posted on the AHA forum. It is relatively new information and I doubt that many brewers are aware of this.

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Interesting. I will have to find it on the AHA forum.

Thanks

Anybody else having trouble connecting to the brunwater site. I get a "Secure Connection Failed" error. I haven't had this problem before today with his site.

Version 1.8 has been uploaded. It includes more ion concentration conversion tools, improved alkalinity calculation, and a nice summary sheet that presents all your water adjustments on a single sheet for printout. That summary sheet also includes AJ's RA Chart that is populated with historic water profiles so you can see how your proposed water compares to those profiles.

I also got rid of any mention of SRM for the water profiles on the Water Adjustment sheet. This was confusing some brewers that were used to the old way of tuning water adjustments to the beer color. Bru'n Water uses mash pH prediction to help guide the brewer's adjustments instead of only the beer color. I also did away with the bicarbonate cells turning Green since that was implying to Brewers that bicarbonate adjustment was correct. In fact, the initial bicarbonate content adjustment is only a 'first guess' and the results of the mash pH are used to finalize that value.

Enjoy! Thanks to all the Bru'n Water supporters who make this possible.

We found an error on the Sparge Acidification sheet that was created when the water volume was changed from liters to gallons. The corrected file is now on the download site. If you downloaded version 1.8 prior to 1:28 eastern time on 4/4/11, you will need to visit the site and download the corrected version.

I have a quick question, is water adjustment for the mash water only? I used a 25% RO water dilution for the water adjustment but am assuming that the sparge acidification is using the undiluted water. Also should I be testing mash pH at room temp? I only have test strips so I have been just dunking them in the mash.

For the most part, water adjustment is performed on both the mash and sparge water. But there are some caveats. First is that alkalinity producing minerals are never added to sparge water. Bru'n Water prevents you from doing that. The second is that the minerals that are calculated for the sparge water does not have to be added to the sparge, it can be added directly to the boil kettle instead.

With regard to your sparge water acidification, if you want to dilute your water, its OK. You just presented a case that I had not thought of, but Bru'n Water has you covered.

Just go ahead and enter your tap water profile in the Water Report Input and then go to the Water Adjustment sheet and dial in your desired amount of dilution. Leave all the Mineral Additions at zero for now. On the Finished Water line, you will see that the alkalinity of this diluted water is calculated in cell L 12. Use that alkalinity value as your input for the Sparge Acidification in order to figure out the proper amount of acid to add to your sparge water.

Thanks for bring this up, this procedure will be in the next version of Bru'n Water.

Actually I would rather not dilute my sparge water if I didn't have too. All I am adding to my mash water is calcium chloride and diluting it with 25% RO water. If I didn't have to dilute my sparge water it would be easier to just add the acid and calcium chloride I needed. I prefer to add it to the sparge water rather than the boil kettle, it is easier to measure out in case I don't end up using it all I still have the correct ratio. As long as I keep my alkalinity the same as what is in my water report will I be ok?

I always dilute with RO then treat (CaCl and/or Gypsum) my mash water but I just use straight RO for sparging, purely out of convenience. It's easier to not have to combine then re-portion all that water, especially since my RO sparge water is already portioned in jugs. I use the TH spreadsheet to give me the ion profile of the 'total' amount of water because I don't see how to do it in Bru'n water. Am I missing something?

Also, it seems I always end up with a net mash acidity that is a little higher than 25meq/L* (which indicates 'needs more alkalinity') but my estimated mash pH is 5.5 or 5.6 (which is already at the high end). If I then tweek the water (or grist) such that it yields a net mash acidity of <25meq/L the estimated mash pH sometimes goes up to 5.6-5.7 but sometimes doesn't.

Bru'n Water seems to predict my mash pH quite well but I'm curious why I'm always exceeding the high end of net mash acidity but yet still at the high end for mash pH. It's gotta be something common I'm doing to every brew.

* - I hope I got those units right.

SpanishCastleAle said:

Also, it seems I always end up with a net mash acidity that is a little higher than 25meq/L* (which indicates 'needs more alkalinity') but my estimated mash pH is 5.5 or 5.6 (which is already at the high end). If I then tweek the water (or grist) such that it yields a net mash acidity of <25meq/L the estimated mash pH sometimes goes up to 5.6-5.7 but sometimes doesn't.

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Are you sure you're looking at Net Mash Acidity and not Total Mash Acidity? The pH prediction is directly based on the Net Mash Acidity and at around 25 meq/L the program should be showing about 5.2 pH. Are you using version 1.9?

mabrungard said:

Are you sure you're looking at Net Mash Acidity and not Total Mash Acidity? The pH prediction is directly based on the Net Mash Acidity and at around 25 meq/L the program should be showing about 5.2 pH. Are you using version 1.9?

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Net mash acidity, it's the block that tells you that numbers >25meq/L indicate 'more alkalinity may be needed'.

I'm still on 1.4. It seemed the revisions were getting immediately revised again so I was waiting for that to settle down. I'll upgrade tonight.

The guts of the program have been stable for a couple of versions. 1.9 has major improvements compared to 1.4. I expect that all the questions you posed above will be satisfied with 1.9.

Martin - one thing that would be nice in the next revision...in addition to listing the water adjustments in grams, could they also be listed in tsp? This would make the actual measurement/addition more straightforward on brew day.

I just downloaded this......This is bad ass.I like the fact that the different types of malts are taken into account as far as their acidity rather than strictly relying on color as a guideline for water adjustments. I've used Palmer's spread sheet and the EZ water calculator, but at times I would get some crazy adjustments that just didn't make sense. Not to say those others were bad , just that this seems to have used the previous info from the others and improved on it. After playing with this software I feel pretty confident using it on my next brew day.
It's funny how mabrungard mentions thinner more acrid dark beers if the ph drops too low because this accurately describes all my dark beers...( i live in GA and have very soft water). I think this may help me improve on them

cjb said:

Martin - one thing that would be nice in the next revision...in addition to listing the water adjustments in grams, could they also be listed in tsp? This would make the actual measurement/addition more straightforward on brew day.

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The problem with that is depending on how packed the tsp is, the actual amount could vary pretty widely, widely enough to be basically useless. A good gram scale is crucial for adjusting water profiles.

CJB, as Nateo mentions its difficult to have any accuracy in your brewing water additions if your adding the extra unknown of how densely packed the mineral is. Gram scales are cheap and they are useful for your hop additions too.

Unfortunately, I'll have to pass on adding the teaspoon measure for the mineral adjustments. I don't want to be an 'enabler'. ;-)

Version 1.10 has been uploaded. The only real changes are improvements to the Instructions, Water Knowledge, and pop-up notes in the program.

But for Metric brewers, there is now a SI version available.

Enjoy!

mabrungard said:

But for Metric brewers, there is now a SI version available.

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Awesome!

Maybe this is a dumb question, but what's the best way to use Bru'n water in conjunction with decarbonation by boiling? There is a lot of info in the water knowledge section, but as far as I can tell there's no way for the spreadsheet to calculate the effects.