All grain woes

So after making four batches of beer from extract and getting decent results, I decided to take the plunge and go all grain.

While all grain is much more engaging and fun, I have yet to produce a beer I really want to drink. It's the same problem every time: I get this weird bitter off-flavor. It's hard to describe. In fact, bitter may not be the best description. In one batch it tasted almost like chalk.

I've tried an oatmeal stout, an amber ale, a brown ale, a Marris Otter SMaSH, a Munich SMaSH and an altbier so far, yet due to this off flavor they all end up tasting basically the same. (Incidentally, the Munich SMaSH tasted pretty good after three weeks in the fermenter and one in the bottle. I had such high hopes for it but it went south just like all the rest.)

So I'm trying to think of the cause. I at first wondered if it was tannin extraction, but my mashes tend to be under-heated rather than over-heated and my understanding was that tannin extraction was the result of high temperatures. Recently I've begun thinking it could be oxidation damage, but (I think) I have been careful about preventing that. Could this be the result of an infection on my equipment? Also, I'm brewing very small batches now: 6-7 liters in a 10 liter carboy. Is it possible that empty space in the fermenter is messing with my beer?

The most frustrating thing is that I almost feel like I can taste a delicious beer hiding under this unpleasant funk.

If any one has experienced something similar, or has any ideas as to what the cause could be, please help.

Does the taste get progressively worse with time? Are the beers seeming thinner (less body) than they should with time? Is the carbination seem to be going up? These would all be symptoms of an infection. I don't know about the chaulk taste but "funky" could be infection. What is your sanitation process like?

Tannin can be extracted by high temps but also through over sparging. Are you fly sparging and aiming for a super high efficiency? Are you doing multiple batch sparges?

Also off flavors can be the result of poor fermentation. Are you pitching enough good healthy yeast? At what temps are you fermenting?

Just some things to think about.

Hm, I wouldn't say they taste worse with time, but they do seem thin (little body) right from the start. Carbonation does seem to increase but I thought that was a natural part of the carbonation process (that is, increasing over time.)

I sanitize everything that touches the wort/beer with Iodophor, usually with 1mL per 1L of water, soaked for 10 minutes. After the soak I place the items on a counter covered with a towel. I spray the towel with an alcohol spray before placing the items on it.

Consulting the Palmer again, I think "powdery" might be another way to describe the off-flavor, which would point towards tannin extraction. My pH may be high, and I've always either fly sparged or multiple batch sparged. Over-sparging could definitely be an issue.

I thought about the yeast. It turns out that at first I had been pitching too little yeast (I'm using dry yeast) but for the last two batches I have been pitching more yeast. My fermentation temps have been between 17-20 degrees C, and I have been worried that the overnight drops might be having an adverse affect on the beer.

If you suspect over sparging and lack of pH control as your problem try a no-sparge on your next batch and see what the result is. I fly sparge all the way down to 1.003 sometimes and never get tannin extraction so one can fly sparge, get high efficiency (92% is my record), and still get amazing beer you just have to be careful of tannins.

Does the wort taste good going into the fermenter? The tannins are already present if you extracted them in the lauter but the abundant maltose and maltriose may be masking them. That would mean that as gravity drops they become more apparent. Probably 2-3 days in the fermenter would bring that to the fore.

I suspect the problem is in the mash or lauter since you've been happy with your extract batches. I assume that you sanitize and pitch the same with your AG beers as extract.

Thank you both for your input. I'll try a no-sparge the next batch and see how it goes.

Just to see if it helps I've thrown a bottle of two of the afflicted beer batches into the fridge and will keep them there for two weeks before sampling. I don't know if trying to cold condition this late in the process will help, though.

I'd pick up some colorpHast 4-7 pH strips. It does sound like a high pH problem to me. Another way to spend that $20 would be to send a water sample to Ward Labs. You could also try a pale ale recipe and use 60% distilled and 40% spring water just to see.

I suggest you test your mash pH.

I was never really happy with my beer. It tasted thin and had an off-flavour that I can't really describe though it sounds similar to yours. I started adding acidulated malt (3% of the total grist) to lower the mash pH and it made a dramatic difference - fuller body and less off-flavour.

You can also try to predict your mash pH using one of the many brewing water tools and your cities water report. Once I did that, my beers got MUCH better. I had that same taste that you are describing in a few of my beers and they always seemed to be lighter beers. Find a good cheap source of RO/DI or distilled water if you need to dilute your tap water. Also, check to see if your municipality uses chloromine. If they do, you'll need camden tables to free the ammonia from the chlorine so it can be boiled off.

EZ Water is my personal favorite after many hours of reading.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/ez-water-calculator-3-0-a-261001/

Or for $160 you can have an unlimited supply of RO/DI to which you can add various salts to tailor your water to the beer and optimize your mash pH at the same time.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/75-gpd-ro-di-5-stage-standard-system.html

I've used this for 6 years now and if it died tomorrow I would simply order in another. I've never made beer with tap water.

ChemE said:

Or for $160 you can have an unlimited supply of RO/DI to which you can add various salts to tailor your water to the beer and optimize your mash pH at the same time.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/75-gpd-ro-di-5-stage-standard-system.html

I've used this for 6 years now and if it died tomorrow I would simply order in another. I've never made beer with tap water.

Click to expand...

How often do you need to buy new filters?

I too use an RO/DI filter that I have remaining from my days of marine fish keeping. With our usage, you can get by changing the particulate and carbon filters every 6-12 months and then the RO membrane ever 2-3 years. I've had mine for 7 years and haven't changed the RO membrane but it is definately on the to-do very soon list. I haven't used it much over the last several years so I can probably get away with it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RESIDENTIAL...all_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item2eb8012e2f

The 10 and 1 micron sediment filters last me 3-4 years and the RO membrane is good for 2,000 gallons which is a hell of a lot of beer! In 6 years I've never used that much for homebrewing. We have a 200 gallon reef aquarium so I have changed the RO filter because the reef consumes a lot of water.

The harder your water is, the darker the beer that will be in proper pH. Seems you may live where you have rather hard water. It appears in the list that your beers get lighter, and as they do the pH goes up and the risk of tannin extraction does as well. I suggest perhaps another dark beer to test drive it, or just get some pH stabilizer.

I have run into this same problem. And recently found culprit. It is tannin extraction of a sort. It came from not recirculating(vorloufing) enough. It would taste good going into boil kettle but bad taste after boil. Vorloufed until no dusty sediment in clear measuring cup(about 2 gallons worth). Then bad taste was gone.

Thanks everyone for your advice. It's all been very enlightening.

I made a wheat beer this time around. I tried three things this time to try and combat the problem I've been having:

1. Added lactic acid to the mash to lower the pH. This was the first time I had ever actually taken the effort to calculate the pH and then try to adjust it. I tested the pH of the mash with strips throughout the process. It stayed at 5.6 or so once I got to the conversion rest (I find the colors on the strips don't really match the key on the bottle, so maybe I was just hoping it was 5.6)

2. Vorloufed for longer than usual, trying to make sure I got a clear wort.

3. Did a no-batch sparge. Or rather, I did a normal mash, added all of the sparge water to the mash at mash-out, let it sit for ten minutes, then lautered it all out.

Results:
A very clear beer. After two weeks in the fermenter and one week in the bottles it had a strong sort of fruity wheat beer flavor you would expect, but I felt I could taste the offending flavor in the wings still. Two weeks into the bottles and the fruity wheat flavor has diminished, as if it is "flat" or a bit watery. The first few sips tasted strongly like carbonated water, but that went away as I continued into the bottle. The horrible bitter flavor that I have had in previous batches is mostly absent, though sometimes I think I can taste it.

However, the beer overall isn't very good. There's something in the flavor I can't place my finger on. It's somewhat cloying, and perhaps a bit sweet, but despite not being in the forefront perception-wise it seems to be dragging the beer down. Overall, I'm disappointed. And I'm not entirely sure that the original unpleasant off-flavor is actually gone, but instead just hidden by the fruitiness of the wheat.

The watery flavor has me wondering if I'm not getting a good mash. The conversion started at 65C and was 62C after an hour, which I'm to understand isn't terribly bad.

One thing that has always bothered me is that my water is very low in chloride (9ppm) leading to a very lower chloride to sulfate ratio. (The obvious answer would be adding CaCl2, but alas I can't find any in my locale that doesn't have "not for consumption" printed on what they sell.)

I'm still stumped about why I can't get a decent beer out of my mashing.

Does it sound like maybe the thermometer is maybe off? Wouldn't that account for all these symptoms? 20 degrees high or low would probably cause some problems. Any veterans care to comment on this? Just curious.

From your description, it probably comes down to either oxidation or infection. You've almost ruled out oxidation with your careful mashing technique, but how do you get your beer from kettle to fermenter?

One way to finally rule out problems with the mash would be to do a full-volume extract batch, using exactly the same equipment and methods from the boil onwards. Problem goes away it's the mash; problem persists it's something else.

Assuming it's an infection instead of oxidation, your most expedient route is to replace every piece of tubing your beer sees between kettle and bottle. What kind of wort chiller do you have? If immersion, make sure it's not leaking water into the kettle. If counter-flow or plate, back-flush (important) multiple times with boiling water. You might also want to do a quick back-flush with dilute bleach, but rinse it out well afterwards.

I've been in the same boat as you. My extract beers have been better also but even they haven't been stellar. All of my all grain efforts have resulted in a similar off flavor to what you have described and the last one resulted in a band aid flavor. After much effort and experimentation I believe I have it narrowed down to my tap water. Although I do have great tasting water here, I believe its too high a ph for starters. I also believe I have reactions going on with chlorine compounds causing some medicinal off flavors.

In an effort to combat this, I built a fermentation chamber. I wanted to take fermentation temps out of the equation. This did not solve my problem. I have experienced this both with bottling and kegging now. I feel like I'm very careful with cleaning and sanitization and I use pbw and Starsan and I've also been very thorough about rinsing out the pbw as I know it can lead to medicinal flavors if still present.

Basically, short of replacing my equipment, I've tried about everything I can think of except for addressing water chemistry. I just made a batch using bottled spring water so we'll see how that goes. I will probably be switching to RO water from here forward as it can be had from my local supermarket for .39 per gallon and it gives me a constant so using the EZ calculator becomes a breeze with any grain bill. Fingers are crossed that this resolves my woes.

+1 to using RO water entirely for a batch to see if that fixes it. If it does, then it's definitely water chemistry.

corax said:

From your description, it probably comes down to either oxidation or infection. You've almost ruled out oxidation with your careful mashing technique, but how do you get your beer from kettle to fermenter?

One way to finally rule out problems with the mash would be to do a full-volume extract batch, using exactly the same equipment and methods from the boil onwards. Problem goes away it's the mash; problem persists it's something else.

Assuming it's an infection instead of oxidation, your most expedient route is to replace every piece of tubing your beer sees between kettle and bottle. What kind of wort chiller do you have? If immersion, make sure it's not leaking water into the kettle. If counter-flow or plate, back-flush (important) multiple times with boiling water. You might also want to do a quick back-flush with dilute bleach, but rinse it out well afterwards.

Click to expand...

Wait! You can oxidize your beer during the mash? How would one go about causing oxidation during the mash and what can be done to prevent it?

Gameface said:

Wait! You can oxidize your beer during the mash? How would one go about causing oxidation during the mash and what can be done to prevent it?

Click to expand...

I read/heard about this, but I don't get how you can oxidize a beer during the mash when everything tells you to aerate the wort or use an oxygen stone prior to pitching the yeast.

jtkratzer said:

I read/heard about this, but I don't get how you can oxidize a beer during the mash when everything tells you to aerate the wort or use an oxygen stone prior to pitching the yeast.

Click to expand...

The idea behind hot side aeration it's that you can oxidize certain compounds while the mash is hot. Therefore, it's no longer just oxygen, but has been incorporated into larger molecules and won't be driven off in the boil.

aerating for the yeast happens at low temps, so the yeast consume it before it oxidizes anything.

Honestly, hsa is not something you need to worry much about. According to such folks as charlie bamforth, you str most likely introducing more staling potential at packaging than with any hsa. Don't unnecessarily splash hot wort just for fun or anything, but also don't stress over it.

jtkratzer said:

I read/heard about this, but I don't get how you can oxidize a beer during the mash when everything tells you to aerate the wort or use an oxygen stone prior to pitching the yeast.

Click to expand...

Aeration of chilled wort prior to pitching is good.

Aeration of hot wort/mash (a.k.a. hot side aeration, or HSA) is bad.

Just how bad is a matter of debate. If you are careful not to create tannins during mashing/sparging, you don't care about refined malt flavors, and you don't plan to age or store the beer for very long, you probably don't have to worry too much about HSA.

corax said:

Aeration of chilled wort prior to pitching is good.

Aeration of hot wort/mash (a.k.a. hot side aeration, or HSA) is bad.

Just how bad is a matter of debate. If you are careful not to create tannins during mashing/sparging, you don't care about refined malt flavors, and you don't plan to age or store the beer for very long, you probably don't have to worry too much about HSA.

Click to expand...

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/475

jtkratzer said:

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/475

Click to expand...

I'll listen to it when I get a chance, but does he actually contradict anything I said? To reiterate, I think you don't need to worry about HSA unless you (1) over-sparge and create tannins, (2) plan to store your beer a long time, or (3) are trying to get a very delicate malt flavor (like a classic Munich Helles or Maerzen).

corax said:

I'll listen to it when I get a chance, but does he actually contradict anything I said? To reiterate, I think you don't need to worry about HSA unless you (1) over-sparge and create tannins, (2) plan to store your beer a long time, or (3) are trying to get a very delicate malt flavor (like a classic Munich Helles or Maerzen).

Click to expand...

That HSA is more or less a myth so long as you're not using an egg beater or something to whip up your mash into a frothy foam. I didn't listen to the entire 87 minute show yet either.

Sorry to hear that your problem continues to haunt you. Before you make your next batch let me second the recommendation to check your thermometer. I like to two point calibrate my two brewing thermometers once a year (they never drift but it so just so easy so why not). I get some RO/DI water to a rolling boil (my elevation is 470' so I don't need to correct for that) and make sure both read 212°F. If not adjust them so they do. Of the two calibration points this is the more important one if your thermometer will be measuring water and mash temperatures.

While you do that, get a slurry of crushed ice and RO or RO/DI water going. Just enough RO/DI to cover the crushed ice. Place it in the back bottom of your refrigerator. While the ice is melting the temperature must be 32°F assuming there isn't a bunch of ions in the ice which is very likely true. Check that your thermometers read the temperature of this slurry as 32°F. This is an easy thing to do and then we can rule out temperature uncertainty during the mash.

Whenever I hear band aid taste defect I always think infection. Can you describe your cooling and transfer of the wort to the fermenter? Is this procedure different now as compared to when you were making extract batches which did not exhibit the off flavor? Next time you brew, sanitize a 20 fluid ounce soda bottle along side your carboy and transfer the first 20 oz. of cooled wort to this soda bottle and cap it then continue transferring the wort to your fermenter. Store the bottle of wort (no yeast added) at the same temperature as the fermenter and feel it daily in order to detect when the contents of the bottle become pressurized. The better your sanitation the longer it will take for the stray yeast or bacterial to start building a colony and pressurizing the head space. Anything longer than 3 days is good and 5 days is excellent. After 3 days in the fermenter your pitched yeast has basically eaten everything up and so the odd wild yeast or bacteria will not build a large enough population to harm your beer.

Finally an excellent source of several brewing salts is bulkreefsupply. This is pharaceutical grade CaCl2•2H20: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/gallon-bulk-calcium-chloride-for-aquariums.html

i use my ph strips when the grain is mixed witht he mash water. all types of beer create a different PH. Adjust the mash liquid is what I have heard on the brew radio.