3-2-1 vs. 1-2-3 Method

I have been doing this on my last 3 beers and it has been much less work and I think the results have been better than when I was doing the standard 3-2-1 method.
I keg & here is what I have been doing:

3 weeks in the primary then transfer to a corny, the cornys are stored in my garage that is heated to maintain 50º in the winter.
I purge all the air out with CO2 & pressurize them to 12-13 PSI and maybe once a week hook up the gas just to make sure they still have some pressure on them.
I leave them like this for 2 weeks then into the kegerator they go for the last week under my normal serving pressure.
My beers are as clear as or clearer than when I was doing the secondary for 2 weeks and its much less work this way.

Any opinions or comments?
In the summer I won’t have the 50º garage so my choices will be limited to 70º in the house, about 60º in the basement or my lagering freezer set to whatever I choose.
Is 50º acting as a 2 week crash cool and making them clearer or is it my imagination?

I have been getting pretty clear beer doing even less. I leave the beer in the fermenter for 3 weeks (or up to 4 if time I can't get to it) transfer to keg. Set for a week or 2 at serving temp in the kegerator. Serve. So far I think they are pretty darn clear and tasty.

I say, if it works for you, go for it. Your beers are proabably even better off than mine with the extra condtioning time. I am still learning patience.

Either way 3-2-1- or 1-2-3 still adds up to 6 weeks in my book...

I tend to think that this works as well. My normal procedure is 2 weeks primary, 1 week secondary(Now With Gelatin! ) at 38* and then into the purged keg. I hit it with 12 psi of gas periodically until 1 week prior to serving, then I set it to my desired carbonation level. Standard time is usually 2-3 weeks in the keg prior to serving. I have noticed improved clarity, but assumed it was due to the gelatin. I agree with HB99 though, six weeks is still six weeks, no matter how you slice it. Using Pat Morita voice "Patience Daniel-san"

Well I'm sold on leaving it in primary longer. I've got the last ale I made in secondary for going on 3 weeks now, and it's not clearing very well at all. I only left it in primary for one week, and I did measure the gravity to see it had finished. I'm now sold on it sitting in primary for like 2 weeks.

Oh well, brew and learn. I hope this stuff still tastes good, even if it's a little cloudy...

I'm a Wuss I use the 1-2, filter into the keg method.. they are generally clear

homebrewer_99 said:

Either way 3-2-1- or 1-2-3 still adds up to 6 weeks in my book...

Click to expand...

Not if you add in the time savings and reduced chance for contamination.

I just bought some more fermenters so I can now leave my primaries for 2 weeks, then into the keg for crash chill and carbing.

I now skip secondaries. Seems that 10-days, 2-weeks or 3-weeks, the beer is always very clear coming out of the fermenter.

It's the chill haze that takes the real time to eliminate.

SuperiorBrew said:

Not if you add in the time savings and reduced chance for contamination.

Click to expand...

Reducing your chances for contamination is a function of sanitation.

As for time savings...it's still 6 weeks...

Can someone give me a link or reasoning for the longer primary time? I would usually do about 7-10 days in primary and rack to a secondary to condition. Thanks -Dirk

homebrewer_99 said:

Reducing your chances for contamination is a function of sanitation.

As for time savings...it's still 6 weeks...

Click to expand...

Yes and no sanitation is needed as the transferring to the secondary step is eliminated as is the chance to add any contaminants at that step.

The time savings is how ever long you spend sanitizing your secondary and racking cane etc. and the transfer itself.

It is a labor time savings.

derogg said:

Can someone give me a link or reasoning for the longer primary time? I would usually do about 7-10 days in primary and rack to a secondary to condition. Thanks -Dirk

Click to expand...

Many are skipping the secondary all together and just leaving it in the primary longer. As far as I can tell its less work and the beer is just as clear & tasty.

derogg said:

Can someone give me a link or reasoning for the longer primary time? I would usually do about 7-10 days in primary and rack to a secondary to condition. Thanks -Dirk

Click to expand...

Can't say.

I've done primaries at 4, 7, 10, 15, and 34 days...depends on the brew reaching FG really.

Leaving the beer in primary on the yeast is supposed to give the yeast time to clean up after the party. I haven't been doing this long enough to say for sure, but my preliminary results are encouraging. Leaving beer in primary longer seems to a be good thing.

SuperiorBrew said:

Yes and no sanitation is needed as the transferring to the secondary step is eliminated as is the chance to add any contaminants at that step.

The time savings is how ever long you spend sanitizing your secondary and racking cane etc. and the transfer itself.

It is a labor time savings.

Click to expand...

You are really only saving a whole 30 seconds it takes the auto-siphon and carboy to be in contact with the sanitizer versus not racking off of sediment into a secondary.

That's not a sound reason for not racking into a clearing tank...all your sediment is in the keg.

But like I said before, I have to move my cornies from the garage to the kegerator in the basement. Any movement will rouse the sediment and cloud up the brew again. If I secondary and get the sediment out first then I don't have to worry about moving the kegs. Even shortening the dip tube will result in sediment in the glass.

homebrewer_99 said:

You are really only saving a whole 30 seconds it takes the auto-siphon and carboy to be in contact with the sanitizer versus not racking off of sediment into a secondary.

Click to expand...

It's more than that if you acount for getting set-up and cleaning.

I stopped using secondaries for my ales. I still do them for the lagers since I want them to carbonate during secondary fermentation. As for skipping the secondary, I don't see why a beer won't clear as well in the primary as it would in a secondary if the temperature is the same.

Kai

homebrewer_99 said:

You are really only saving a whole 30 seconds it takes the auto-siphon and carboy to be in contact with the sanitizer versus not racking off of sediment into a secondary.

That's not a sound reason for not racking into a clearing tank...all your sediment is in the keg.

Click to expand...

If you can sanitize your carboy and racking equipment and transfer it to your secondary in 30 seconds I would love to see it.

I am not trying to convince you to do this method at all, am just giving my reasoning for skipping a complete racking sequence being a time saver and wanted more feedback on not using a secondary for clearing.

I do have a lager in a secondary rite now & will do the same on my next lager but do not plan to do it on any more normal gravity ales.

I'm done with secondaries unless there is a need to use it.

I guess I will chime in also, last year I started going from primary to keg. My beers ar much better aging in bulk. If I want to dry hop I put the hops in another keg purge out the 02 as best that I can and transfer the beer one more time using co2 to push it out of the keg. Sometimes I leave it in the keg for a long time, sometimes I use the beer gun and fill some bottles. I do try to maintain 68F and toward the end of the ferment warm up to 70F when the fermentation has slowed enough that it does not generate much heat.

i think i'm going to use my secondary jugs for wine this year....

i've been doing three weeks or so in primary, then transfering to the keg for a week or two before serving.

budbo said:

I'm a Wuss I use the 1-2, filter into the keg method.. they are generally clear

Click to expand...

I`m thinking of filtering my beers. What your method?

Well, I'm brand new to kegging, but now that I've kegged a couple of batches, I am also skipping the clearing tank. My beer is crystal clear (I don't use any finings at all) after being in primary 3 weeks for one, 4 weeks for the other. I will still use a secondary for the lagers, and maybe for a "big" beer that needs more time since I don't want to tie up a keg for a long time. For any beers I'm planning on bottling, I will still do 1-2-3.

SuperiorBrew said:

If you can sanitize your carboy and racking equipment and transfer it to your secondary in 30 seconds I would love to see it.

I am not trying to convince you to do this method at all, am just giving my reasoning for skipping a complete racking sequence being a time saver and wanted more feedback on not using a secondary for clearing.

I do have a lager in a secondary rite now & will do the same on my next lager but do not plan to do it on any more normal gravity ales.

Click to expand...

I can see where you would like to see that set-up. Obviously it takes more time than 30 seconds to do the actual racking, but the process to rack can be done in that time.

Everyone's situation is different. My advantage is I have a dedicated brewing kitchen in my basement. Everything I need is within 10 feet of where I am standing, except for malts. (I store them in another room. I generally keep about 3 to 4 55# boxes of DME on a dolly and can roll them into the kitchen easily).

I keep a 5 gal bucket of Star San ready at all times. I wash all my equipment after using it and sanitize before setting it up to air dry. (I have an overhead shelf that I hang my equipment from to dry). Since it's already clean I do not have to clean it again. I just re-sanitize it.

I grab the auto-syphon off the hook and submerge it (to get it wet) and assemble. As I assemble it (insode the bucket) the sanitizing fluid fills the racking cane and hose...let sit for 30 seconds and drain. The 1-2 minutes contact time means "contact time", not "immersion time". It'll stay wet for a couple more minutes or I can just let it sit while I sanitize the new vessel or I can just let it sit in the sanitizer. Pour 1/2 gal of sanitizer into new vessel, shake, drain. Done. Insert auto-syphon into fermenter and the other end into the new container and rack.

I know you're not trying to convince me to switch to your method. This isn't about that. It's about you and me contributing alternative processes and techniques to others who haven't decided on a technique/practice that works best for them.

Obvious, many brewers out there have to share a kitchen with SWMBO. Then their equipment needs to be taken out of storage, cleaned, then a batch of sanitizer needs to be made, etc. I skip most of all of that with my set-up.

Now, If I ever bring my keezer indoors and set-up a collar for taps I can modify my set-up more in the direction of your practice.

I stopped using a clearing tank after hearing Jamil talk about it on his podcasts. Assuming you pitch an adequate amount of healthy yeast you shouldn't run into problems with off flavours from autolysis for 6-8 weeks. Some yeast strains this may be more critical then for others (the Wyeast 1968 comes to mind). The main advantage is that you have the maximum amount of yeast in contact with your beer to allow them to clean up after themselves. A significant amount of fermentation byproducts are generated during the active fermentation phase. Many of these can be metabolized further by the yeast if given time and they have run out of the "easy" stuff to ferment. It is also, as pointed out, easier and eliminates an opportunity for contamination/oxidation. I still do use a "secondary" for big beers I want to bulk condition longer but I wait to transfer to it for 4-6 weeks. Just my 2C, YMMV.

GT

By leaving the brew in the primary for 3-4 weeks, you can rack cleared beer to your cornies, skipping a step.

The prevailing sentiment seems to be "whatever works for you". My own method is to rack to secondary once kreusen falls back. When the beer is clear and the SG is stable over several samples, I rack to the keg.

I've actually been experimenting with a similar method. I really like it and yes it is less work and as we all know its less cleaning....and we all love that!!!

Depending on the style is what I'm playing with right now and how long I leave in the primary, but for some time now I've been letting the beers clear in a keg under pressure.

I like it and I like not having to transfer to a secondary.

just my .02 cents

I was reading thru Zainasheff & Palmers new book last and it said this "In general we recomend a single-vessel fermentation for a minimum of 1 week, and not more than 4 weeks, before packaging. Racking to a secondary fermenter is not recomended except for beers requiring a long fermentation, such as lagers, or beers requiring a second fermentation , such as sour ales and fruit beers."

I'm still looking for that book...

I love it, I find myself going to it all the time when I am wanting to work up a new brew. If you buy it at beertown.org they sign it and pass good brewing luck with it

You know.... I can honestly say I have never realy understood this. And to tell a newbie it can make things even worst. Obviously you rack when it's done. Not that you reached a time period. I mean this 3-2-1 or 1-2-3 does not take into account a single ingrediant that you put in the thing. Make a standard beer that ok. Put mollassis or honey in and it's a different story. Make a smoked beer that needs the time or want to add cherries to a secondary (and in this case, secondary means a 6.5 gal you know) and you also have a very different situation. Then you have the beer that is just sluggish for some reason. Ah, 1 week is up. Gotta rack... then the nut has to peal beer from the cieling and wonders what the hell went wrong.

I don't know....I know 'we' can say it... thats because a good amount of 'we' have the experience to look at a carboy and say ok... it's done... oh... well it just happens to be one week anyways... all the better you know.

I just think that when we get a thread like this we have to be carefull. A lot of people are reading it and many dont have anywhere near the experience that they need to have to look at a situation and say they need to rack when they hit a time period you know...

SuperiorBrew said:

"In general we recomend a single-vessel fermentation for a minimum of 1 week, and not more than 4 weeks, before packaging. Racking to a secondary fermenter is not recomended except for beers requiring a long fermentation, such as lagers, or beers requiring a second fermentation , such as sour ales and fruit beers."

Click to expand...

If those guys say it then I'd bet it's sound advice - but does anyone know why they say this? Is it just a way of minimising risk of contamination, or do they think there's something bad about using a secondary? In other words, do they think a secondary is harmless but needless, or do they think it actually lessens the quality of the beer?

I really like the idea of skipping the secondary (for simplicity's sake, and time savings).


What about dry hopping? I've got a pilsner and a pale ale in the primaries now that I'd like to dry hop before kegging. Do I still do this in the primary (wait until fermentation is done?)?

Kevin

Danek said:

If those guys say it then I'd bet it's sound advice - but does anyone know why they say this? Is it just a way of minimising risk of contamination, or do they think there's something bad about using a secondary? In other words, do they think a secondary is harmless but needless, or do they think it actually lessens the quality of the beer?

Click to expand...

Jamil has stated in his radio show that, in his experience, secondaries can actually lessen the quality of the beer. Especially if you simply follow the standard advice of 1 week in primary then rack.

I can't remember which episode it was, sorry.

Kevin K said:

I really like the idea of skipping the secondary (for simplicity's sake, and time savings).


What about dry hopping? I've got a pilsner and a pale ale in the primaries now that I'd like to dry hop before kegging. Do I still do this in the primary (wait until fermentation is done?)?

Kevin

Click to expand...

2nd the question on Dry hopping. I am curious.

BrooZer said:

2nd the question on Dry hopping. I am curious.

Click to expand...

I don't think there is any problem with this. I have a gumball head clone that fermented out in about a week. I simply took out the stopper and pitched in my hops. The only thing a secondary would accomplish is getting the beer of the yeast cake which really shouldn't matter unless, like people said, you're going to age it for a very long time. Since dry hopping usually only last 1-2 weeks it's not really a problem at all.

From the research I've done, I'd agree. I also listened to a few episodes of the Jamil show, and they seem to agree.

I added my 1oz of Centennial to the primary this morning (Krausen had fallen).

We'll see how it goes!

Kevin

I have adopted the 3-3 method. 3 weeks in Primary, 3 weeks in bottle. If I keg I do 3 weeks in primary, 1 week in keg carbing, and start drinking even tho it is a little green

If I am dry hopping I just wait till active fermentation is done...7- 10days, then throw in the hops.

I've been away from making beer for about a year...and now I'm hearing that the secondary fermentation isn't really necessary! Very surprising.

I always read that leaving the beer on the spent yeast bed gave the beer off-flavors, but I'm certainly willing to skip that racking step if that's not true.

So, a couple of questions:
1) I only bottle. Is the 3-3 method valid for bottles, or only kegs?

2) I always get some yeast in my bottles even out of the secondary. How do I avoid getting an inch of yeast in each bottle when racking directly out of the primary?

3-3 works even for bottling. Just be more careful with your racking, and rack from about the trub. It helps if you use a highly flocculant yeast, because then the trub layer is more compacted.