Czech Pils: Looking for a complete recipe

Guys: I don't post much here but I have a question for you. I have been brewing since 1999 and make a bunch of styles with my water but I can't seem to get a good, overall handle on something like a Czech Pils or other pale-colored beer and I assume it's the water. I have tried. God knows I have tried. I have gotten some tips from AJ but I think I need the whole thing... grain bill, hop schedule, mash schedule, water composition, etc. I can lager so that's not the issue. Here's a look at my source water:

Ca: 34
Mg: 12
Na: 13
Cl: 21
SO4: 27
Bicarbonate: 138

The bicarbonate is the problem. I have tried cutting my water with bulk RO from the grocery store or distilled. I try adding a bit of CaCl to get the chloride and calcium up. I end up with harsh-tasting beer or bland beer. I'm not sure if I should be looking at epsom salt, table salt or something else that I have not tried. I currently have 5 gallons of bulk RO water and 10 one-gallon bottles of distilled water. Would anyone care to take a stab at putting the whole enchilada together? I often make these with pilsner malt (Best Malz usually), some amount of either Vienna or Munich (both Weyermann), all noble hops (Saaz but not always... sometimes Hallertau, Hersbrucker, Mittelfruh, Tettnanger) and any number of yeast strains including but not limited to 800, 802, 2000, 2001, 2278, 830, 2124, 2782. I have a dedicated lager fridge, I oxygenate my wort well, I pitch into wort that is 50°, I do d-rests, I lager, etc. but I just can't seem to get the right balance. I know that bicarbonate and sulfates need to be low here. I know that chlorides can be a little high so that calcium numbers can be in the 40-50ppm range. I typically do single infusion mashes at 149° or so. I could do a Hochkurz mash 142x30 plus 158x60 but I typically stay away from decoction mashes. I have tried 2 or 3 times and ended up with subpar beer (my fault I'm sure). Anyone care to share their experience in this difficult style? Cheers Beerheads.

Have you looked at Bru'n Water by Martin Brungard? Google it if your haven't. He has a setting (and may chime in if he has time) for Pilsen water profile. I think you could start with his spread sheet using 100% RO water and build from there accordingly.

Hey there...

Good timing on your question. I just racked my Czech pils to secondary this evening. While no expert on water chemistry, I have been focusing on it for the last year in my brewing, so let me see if I can help.

Adding acid will neutralize the bicarbonates and bring their amount lower. If I use the Brun Water Spreadsheet with your water profile numbers entered, it looks like you can get down to a 16.5 bicarbonate level by adding 2ml 10% phosphoric acid solution per gallon of mash water, and using 50% RO water total. (I picked 10% Phosphoric acid because that's what I used. I have seen lactic acid at a few of my LHBS.) That would give you the following numbers:

CA: 17.5
Mg: 6
Na: 10.5
SO4: 14
Cl: 12.5
Bicarbonate: 16.5

Here's my grain bill:

5.5 gallon batch
8.5# Pilsner Malt
.5# Carafoam
.5# Crystal 20
Yeast: WLP802

My water:
CA: 4
Mg: 0.8
Na: 30
Cl: 19
SO4: 9
Bicarbonate: 44

My water is fairly soft like Pilsen as it is, so I didn't change anything. I just did a triple decoction mash. The sample I had of the beer going into secondary tonight made me want to keg it right then and there, so the results were very good.

(Quick Edit: The mash pH with the grain bill I mentioned and 3.5 gallons of the water profile as calculated would be 5.4)

BigRedHopHead: I do have BruNWater but I have not tried to make a beer like this with the small numbers that you always see for Plzen because I feel like something else must be happening there (they're doing an acid rest, quadruple decoction, etc). I did see Martin's profile for either "yellow balanced" or "yellow malty" (I forget which) but those were NOT meant for Czech Pils... too much sulfate. I learned that the hard way.

MrHadack: Okay, so this is something I have not tried. I typically mash with about 4 gallons and add any additions (CaCl, etc) to the mash. Then I check the pH and if it needs to be lower (it always needs to be lower on a pale beer), I use 88% lactic acid and normally only need about ½ml or so. Then I sparge with another 4 gallons and check the pH of the sparge or possibly the preboil wort or sometimes both. Where does the phosphoric acid come in? Add 8ml of that to my mash water (4 gallons)? What will that do to my pH? And why does that offset the bicarbonate? I'm not sure I'm following this but if there's something to it... I'll try it.

Thanks for the help guys... much appreciated.

From everything I have done and read a decoction mash is not necessary with today's malts. Single infusion at 149 should be fine. Just my 2 cents.

scroll up on the style section of the sheet and you will start to see famous brewing city water profiles. There should be selection for "Pilsen".

BigRedHopHead said:

From everything I have done and read a decoction mash is not necessary with today's malts. Single infusion at 149 should be fine. Just my 2 cents.

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I've heard the same, but thought I'd try it anyway for kicks. I made the exact same recipe with a single rest. I'll let you know what happens in my upcoming blind taste tests.

I did see the Pilsen profile but I think the jury is still out on whether homebrewers can create a decent beer with all of the major water ions in the single digits. AJ and Martin have both suggested that the 50ppm calcium number may not be necessary but they both suggest more than 7 or whatever Pilsen is set to. There is an "American Lager" profile too but I didn't try that one either. I have tried a 50% water cut with RO or distilled and then about 2.5g of CaCl in the mash. I have one like that in a keg right now that I'm waiting to sample. But I'd like to hear about the phosphoric acid reducing the bicarb thing. I also remember someone mentioning "pickling lime" which is calcium hydroxide (or something) and also "slaked lime" to remove bicarbonate but I haven't tried those yet either.

kenlenard said:

Guys: I don't post much here but I have a question for you. I have been brewing since 1999 and make a bunch of styles with my water but I can't seem to get a good, overall handle on something like a Czech Pils or other pale-colored beer and I assume it's the water. I have tried. God knows I have tried. I have gotten some tips from AJ but I think I need the whole thing... grain bill, hop schedule, mash schedule, water composition, etc. I can lager so that's not the issue. Here's a look at my source water:

Ca: 34
Mg: 12
Na: 13
Cl: 21
SO4: 27
Bicarbonate: 138

The bicarbonate is the problem.

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Yes, it is. To brew a Czech Pils I'd forget about diluting that water. Even at a 9:1 dilution you would still be left with ~14ppm CO3 which is OK but why not save the work and just use 100% RO/distilled. Then add 5g of CaCl2 per five gallon batch. Do not use gypsum, Sodium chloride and definitely not Epsom salt. The small addition of Calcium chloride will supply enough Ca+ to keep the mash pH in line as well as the other beneficial stuff Ca+ provides to the beer. The chloride will help with the flavor and the Cl- will be below the level where you might encounter problems. Do not worry about sulphates (bad here) or Sodium (not needed or wanted) or Magnesium (ugh for this style).

kenlenard said:

I know that bicarbonate and sulfates need to be low here.

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They should be next to zero IMO.

kenlenard said:

I often make these with pilsner malt (Best Malz usually), some amount of either Vienna or Munich (both Weyermann), all noble hops (Saaz but not always... sometimes Hallertau, Hersbrucker, Mittelfruh, Tettnanger) and any number of yeast strains including but not limited to 800, 802, 2000, 2001, 2278, 830, 2124, 2782. I have a dedicated lager fridge, I oxygenate my wort well, I pitch into wort that is 50°, I do d-rests, I lager, etc. but I just can't seem to get the right balance.

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All of those ingredients and techniques are fine. Use what you like but if you want my opinion it's all pilsner malt with perhaps a bit of CaraFoam or CaraHells for the grist, Saaz for flavor/aroma with the option to blend Saaz with a clean higher alpha for bittering and 2278, 2001 or 800 for fermenting.

kenlenard said:

I typically do single infusion mashes at 149° or so. I could do a Hochkurz mash 142x30 plus 158x60 but I typically stay away from decoction mashes. I have tried 2 or 3 times and ended up with subpar beer (my fault I'm sure). Anyone care to share their experience in this difficult style? Cheers Beerheads.

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Again, any of those mashes will get the job done so use what you are comfortable with. Personally, I do decoction mashing with this one for sure but you don't have to.

Big Ed: I have not tried to go with 100% distilled or RO yet. That's one thought. I have also sent a sample of my bulk RO water (that I get at the grocery store) to Ward Labs to find out exactly what's in it. That may be an option as well as long as everything is very low, which is should be. That said, it occurs to me that someone, somewhere has made a great homebrewed Czech Pils and whether they used their own soft water (lucky!) or built the water, I should be able to duplicate the water and proceed from there. So BigEd... have you used 100% distilled/RO and added 5g of CaCl and had it come out well? Would I add all 5g of CaCl to the mash or what would you suggest?

kenlenard said:

MrHadack: Okay, so this is something I have not tried. I typically mash with about 4 gallons and add any additions (CaCl, etc) to the mash. Then I check the pH and if it needs to be lower (it always needs to be lower on a pale beer), I use 88% lactic acid and normally only need about ½ml or so. Then I sparge with another 4 gallons and check the pH of the sparge or possibly the preboil wort or sometimes both. Where does the phosphoric acid come in? Add 8ml of that to my mash water (4 gallons)? What will that do to my pH? And why does that offset the bicarbonate? I'm not sure I'm following this but if there's something to it... I'll try it..

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First, you're kinda working backward it seems. You should use the spreadsheet to calculate how to adjust the water before you mash. If you use the sheet correctly, you won't need to add anything to the mash once you mix in the grain. The pH and everything else will just work.

On the spreadhseet: Enter your water profile info, enter the grain bill on the "mash acidification" sheet (very important as grain affects the pH), make sure you enter the correct volume of mash water and batch volume where necessary. When this is done, then tweak the additions on the water adjustment page until you hit the right totals *AND* the mash pH (listed on the Mash Acidification sheet and Adjustment Summary sheets) is highlighted green meaning it is in the proper range. Then if you look at the Addition Summary page it will tell you exactly how much of each addition to add to your mash water. Do it all ahead of time and you mash pH will be dead on, over and over with no need to add anything during the mash.

The phosphoric acid (or the acid you use) is just a water treatment method for reducing bicarbonates. They neutralize each other. In the water additions section, the last item listed is ACIDS. Use the pull down menu to select Lactic acid, enter 88% in the strength square, and then you can add ml until you see the pH and bicarbonates get where they need to be.

Lastly: DO NOT try to hit the numbers right on the nose. You cannot recreate specific water profiles exactly. Yes, you can get the numbers to match up, but water is more complex than that. Adding all sorts of stuff more often than not gives hard flavors as you've learned. Just focus on getting the pH correct as well the the general ball park for the style and requirements and you'll be fine.

Okay, I will look at that too. Bru'N'Water is one of those things that appears confusing and diabolical at first and then you put it away and come back to it. At least for me. I need to sit down with it and play with it a little longer so I get be comfortable with it. That said, I can't remember ever hearing that acids reduce bicarbonates. I knew that they would lower the mash pH but I always understood that the bicarbonates stayed where they were unless you boiled or diluted.

As apparently I've given tips before I won't go on at length but the one thing that I don't see in this thread which is very important for Pils is mash pH control. Fortunately this is pretty easy to achieve with low mineral water. Just add 2-3% (by weight) sauermalz to the grist. This isn't done to remove bicarbonate - that should have been done by other means (I recommend dilution with RO water and modest calcium chloride supplementation as much for the chloride as the calcium). It is also very important how the wort is fermented. Proper yeast strain, proper temperature profile and proper lagering are all critical. I also strongly recommend Noonan's Brewing Lager Beer.

kenlenard said:

I can't remember ever hearing that acids reduce bicarbonates.

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They neutralize each other. Ever have heartburn and take a TUMS or Rolaids? Those meds are bicarbonates and heartburn is acid reflux.

kenlenard said:

That said, it occurs to me that someone, somewhere has made a great homebrewed Czech Pils and whether they used their own soft water (lucky!)

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Yeah, I have. My tap water is very soft and has very low ion content. I add about 3g CaCl2 per five gallons for a Czech pils.

kenlenard said:

Would I add all 5g of CaCl to the mash or what would you suggest?

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To be technical it should probably be split with both the strike water and sparge water but honestly because there is so little if you just dump 5g in the mash it will be fine. I do like to acidify my sparge water slightly with phosphoric acid and if you do go with straight RO/distilled I'd do that as well.

AJ: Thanks for that. I will occasionally use Acid Malt (maybe 4 ounces in 5 gallons which might come to 2% or so) but on those occasions where I don't use it, I use lactic acid and I am very careful with my mash pH and preboil wort pH. I have looked at Kai's site and have seen what happens to pale wort when proper pH is not reached. I went back and looked at a private conversation you and I had and you suggested an addition of CaCl that would get me to about 25ppm of calcium and 37ppm of chloride overall... an amount that comes to about 2.5g in the mash (when using 8 gallons total). So the next attempt may be with 100% distilled water and somewhere in that range of CaCl.

BigEd said:

Yeah, I have. My tap water is very soft and has very low ion content. I add about 3g CaCl2 per five gallons for a Czech pils.



To be technical it should probably be split with both the strike water and sparge water but honestly because there is so little if you just dump 5g in the mash it will be fine. I do like to acidify my sparge water slightly with phosphoric acid and if you do go with straight RO/distilled I'd do that as well.

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Okay, I have my next attempt then. I am waiting for a sack of Durst Turbo Pils and then I'm going to try a 100% distilled water Czech Pils. Thanks for the great (and quick!) help brewers!

FWIW, I get RO water from Wally World at $3.40 for ten gallons. Culligan is the water station there that you can fill 5 gallon carboys for next to nothing. IMO it is too easy to try this method than play around with dilutions. Yeast, and yeast management (i.e. pitching rate and temp control) are the most important part of lagers. BTW, I love Sazz and a continental pilsner malt with some carapils.

I currently have a bunch of Hallertau, Hersbrucker and Tettnanger but I might head over to the LHBS and grab some Saaz for this. I'm going all-distilled-all-the-time with the aforementioned 3-to-5g of CaCl added to the mash. Thanks to everyone for the help... much appreciated.

kenlenard said:

That said, I can't remember ever hearing that acids reduce bicarbonates. I knew that they would lower the mash pH but I always understood that the bicarbonates stayed where they were unless you boiled or diluted.

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For example with HCl, hydrochloric acid, which separates into H+ and Cl- ions:

H+ + Cl- + HCO3- ---> CO2 + H2O + Cl-

Thus the bicarbonate ion is converted to CO2 gas and water leaving a chloride ion behind. This is the part that many people overlook. The bicarbonate is removed but it is replaced with the anion of the acid you used. If you have high alkalinity water which is also low in chloride then the reaction above is ideal for you as it kills two birds with one stone. If, conversely, you have high alkalinity and high chloride it's not such a great way to get rid of the alkalinity. In such a case dilution would kill two birds with one stone - reducing both the alkalinity and the chloride.

I have never heard that so this is new to me. My guess is that my bicarb is higher than desired for this method. Although it was mentioned that adding 8ml of phosphoric acid would reduce my bicarb to 16.5ppm. AJ, how much HCl would be required in my water to reduce the bicarb to acceptable levels? Also, what would it do to my chlorides?

I went back and checked my notes from 2011 and turns out I did try a 100% distilled batch but must have thought that I needed small amounts of things other than CaCl because I added small amounts of gypsum and epsom salts as well. Beer didn't turnout well. :|

Also, not sure if this is relevant but as long as we're on the subject... does anyone know why I can dilute my water with 50% distilled, add 3-4g of CaCl and make a decent blonde ale that is SRM 4-5 and made with Mt. Hood or Liberty hops? Shouldn't I be able to make a good pale lager if I can make a decent pale-colored ale?

ajdelange said:

This is the part that many people overlook. The bicarbonate is removed but it is replaced with the anion of the acid you used.

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Yeah, I am guilty of overlooking that part when I made my suggestion earlier in the thread.

I use pickling lime to treat my water. I agree with AJ. Mash pH is critical. I have water similar to Munich (less sulfate though), so relatively hard with a high-ish amount of bicarbonate. My water protocol is to add the lime and let it settle over night. Then I pump it over to my mash tun and HLT and then adjust the pH of the water in both down to 5.5 using phosphoric acid. In the past for a Czech pils I've mixed this water half and half with distilled water to cut the salts even more.

Just this past weekend brewed up a Czech pils, but this time I didn't use any distilled water to cut my water so I could find out if that is an important step or not (and possibly save a little $). I thought perhaps the wort sample was a little grassier than normal. Bitterness was spot on. We'll see in 8 weeks.

My recipe (under my avatar) is definitely not traditional, but the resulting flavors are!

kenlenard said:

I went back and checked my notes from 2011 and turns out I did try a 100% distilled batch but must have thought that I needed small amounts of things other than CaCl because I added small amounts of gypsum and epsom salts as well. Beer didn't turnout well. :|

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I have a question as far as your process is concerned: how do you determine what additions to make and how much of each to use?

I have my water numbers entered into Bru'N'Water and also EZ_Water. I like to use EZ_Water for straightforward additions because it's... uh... straightforward, moreso than Bru'N'Water. So if I wanted to make an English Bitter or something, I would just look at the numbers and add some calcium sulfate (good for that style) and possibly CaCl until I thought it was reasonable. I know how the water should be for various styles and in some cases I can make very good beer without futzing with the water at all. Beers in the SRM 10 to 15 range come out pretty good w/o adjustment and I may just have to check mash pH and adjust it with lactic acid. When it comes to pale-colored beers, I understand that bicarbonate and sulfates can cause harshness (something about darker grains offsetting bicarbonate and when you get to very dark beers (stouts, etc.) higher levels of bicarbonate are necessary. So I really just adjust based on what I want out of the beer... gypsum for more hop-forward styles, CaCl for maltier beers. For pale beers I try to get the bicarb and sulfates low. I asked on another board one time for a reference for water compositions for various styles and I got a lot of "THERE IS NO SUCH THING." from a lot of brewers. Martin's profiles are the closest I have seen for specific numbers for various styles although YELLOW BALANCED does not imply Pilsner water because his sulfate and bicarb numbers for that style are too high. Also, when it comes to making additions, I have learned that it's easy to overdo it so I typically go with "less is more" on that. Bottom line is that I don't specifically know what the perfect water composition is for each style. Water seems to be the one area that homebrewers overlook. I feel like every recipe we share should have detailed water breakdowns as well. Sorry for the long post.

kenlenard said:

AJ, how much HCl would be required in my water to reduce the bicarb to acceptable levels? Also, what would it do to my chlorides?

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To determine this we would have to know the alkalinity of your water and what an acceptable level is. This would require, unless your alkalinity stable, doing a titration each time you brew followed by some calculations. A quick and dirty but not terribly helpful, probably, answer is 85% of your alkalinity divided by 50 mEq/L of water treated. This requires that you know the normality (equivalents per liter) of your acid as well as the alkalinity of the water. There is, however, a way to get rid of most of your alkalinity without knowing the strength of the acid or the alkalinity of the water and that is to just add the acid, whatever it's strength or whichever acid it is, until the pH of the treated water reaches 5.5. This is what they do at Sierra Nevada and I have decided they are pretty clever fellows for doing it this way.

There are some curves in 12 @ https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/sharp-bitterness-346975/index2.html and they show that if you take the pH to 5.5 you will, unless your starting pH is low (below 7) remove 85% of your alkalinity. Of course you need to check pH to do this. Strips should be good enough for this purpose but a meter would be better. If your alkalinity is as high as 200 then this method would reduce it to 30 which should be acceptable in most cases with the possible exception of the effects of having to add high levels of sulfate, chloride, phosphate or lactate. If above 200 other means of de-carbonization should be considered. At lower levels of alkalinity e.g. the more common 100 or less (at least on the east coast) this method should be fine.

So the recommendation is add acid until pH 5.5. If you slip and overshoot just blend more water back in until you hit pH 5.5.

The amount of cation which replaces bicarbonate is equivalent to the alkalinity removed. Thus if you have alkalinity of 200 and remove 170 you will have taken out 170/50 = 3.4 mEq/L. The weight of cation is the equivalent weight multiplies by this. Thus for sulfate the equivalent weight is 48 mg/mEq and you would have added 3.4*48 mg/L sulfate. The equivalent weight for chloride is 35 mg/mEq and you would have added 3.4*35 mg/L chloride.

Ugh. This is where I check out. Looks like 100% distilled water is the better way to go!

Absolutely. I obviously do calculations like this every day to keep the hinges from rusting but in the brewery I use RO water and half a tsp of CaCl2 per 5 gal.

½ tsp sounds like it would come in right around 2g or so. No worries about the ZERO levels of Mg, Na, SO4 and bicarb, right? I'm going to make this one day next week with 2124, I believe.

I don't think you should worry about 0 levels but I always blend in about 10% well water just for the 'trace' elements.

I will try it this way first and see how it comes out. If I thought there was something missing, I could always use a small amount of my tap water the next time. I found that using 10% of my tap water would result in using 102 ounces out of the 1024 ounces total (51 ounces in the 4 gallon mash and 51 in the 4 gallon sparge water). I can always try that another time. Thanks again and I will post back when I have an update.