Steeping specialty grains

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Bach7210

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In my pursuit of improving my brews, I ran across this table and discovered something that I have not read before.

Troubleshooting Chart - Brew Your Own (BYO), the How-To Homebrew Beer Magazine

Looking at the 3rd problem listed (puckering, tea-like quality; astringency) in the left hand column, it states the following when extract brewing "steeped grains in too much water (over 3 quarts water per pound of grain)". Is this a major concern? Is there a chart or reference table that lists how much water you should use in relation to how many pounds used when steeping grains? I know you shouldn't steep above 170 deg F, but I've never seen this no more than 3 qts per pound directive.
 
Quoted from John Palmer in his chapter on steeping specialty grains:

"Water chemistry also plays a role in tanin extraction. Steeping the heavily roasted malts in low alkalinity water (i.e., low bicarbonate levels) will produce conditions that are too acidic, and harsh flavors will result. Likewise, steeping the lightest crystal malts in highly alkaline water could produce conditions that are too alkaline, and tanin extraction would be a problem again. For best results, the ratio of steeping water to grain should be less than one gallon per pound."

One gallon is four quarts, so using only three quarts of water per pound of specialty grain seems a safe way to prevent tanin extraction. I have no idea what happens if you use 5 quarts or 10 quarts. In other words, I don't know when tanin extraction occurs, when it becomes noticeable, nor at what rate.
 
Dang. First I've heard of this problem. My last batch I steeped .375 pound in 3 gallons of water. Doh!
 
+1 on the Dang.

I've been doing some PM's, moving toward AG - but this weekend I wanted to chill with my Dad who's in from out of town, and just went for a simple extract brew so we could hang out and talk instead of fretting over procedures I'm not familiar with... I steeped 2lb of grain in my full 5 gallons of water.

Thanks for posting! (I guess...) :mad:
 
YUP just read that for best results the ratio should be LESS then one gallon of water per pound of grain.

The problem is with PH and tannen extraction .

You Extract guys should look into mini mashing - it's pretty easy - NOT that there is anything wrong with Extract. Just a guy that was an extract and now Mini masher.
 
Thanks for posting this.

I was unaware that I need to be watching the grain-to-water ratio during steeping. I steeped my grains for the last batch (a red ale...) in about 4 gallons of water and was uber-careful not to exceed 170*F. My samples have been ok but just the tiniest micro-hint of tannens. I thought that maybe I steeped at 171*F or something equally slight but too much water would also explain it.

I'll try to steep in the correct ratio next time and see if that improves things...

-Tripod
 
Thanks for the info, guys. I typically steep in around 2-3 gallons of water for 30 minutes and use that time to prep and sanitize other items; only coming around to the brew pot to play with the grain bag every few minutes. (I do tie the bag to a handle and do not allow it to rest on the bottom of the kettle).

I think on mynext brew day I may try just 3qt of water and see how that method turns out.
 
Thanks for the info, guys. I typically steep in around 2-3 gallons of water for 30 minutes and use that time to prep and sanitize other items; only coming around to the brew pot to play with the grain bag every few minutes. (I do tie the bag to a handle and do not allow it to rest on the bottom of the kettle).

I think on mynext brew day I may try just 3qt of water and see how that method turns out.


same here -- I've always just followed the direction -- which usually say something like "heat 2 gallons of water...."
 
I have found that many directions are default ones for people that just want to make cookie cutter beers. If you are here you obviously want to make BETTER beer and already or will soon know more about making beer then the recipes give you credit for.

I use Kit directions only as a guide.
 
I snuck an early sample to check the gravity tonight on my pale ale. So far I think it tastes great! It hit the estimated FG in 5 days.

And yeah I definitely plan on moving to Partial Mash a la Deathbrewer soon. Maybe one more extract kit and then change over.
 
I have found that many directions are default ones for people that just want to make cookie cutter beers. If you are here you obviously want to make BETTER beer and already or will soon know more about making beer then the recipes give you credit for.

I use Kit directions only as a guide.

I'm learning more and more that your statement is very accurrate. Anymore, when I brew, I don't even look at the directions. I am curious about doing partial mashes. I need to read up on that and figure out how to get the ingredients to try a batch that way.
 
I use a procedure kind of in-between the steep and mini mash. I put my specialty grains with some 2-row in a small pan with around 1.5 qts/lb. ~170 degree water and wrap the whole thing with a towel for 30+ minutes. Then I dump through a strainer into the pot on a turkey fryer and pour some more 180 degree water through it. No special equipment needed. Not sure if it makes a difference, but it's as close as I'll get until I convert my cooler and try all-grain.
 
Good to know on the specialty grains, I've been doing steeps with 2.5 gallons of water at 150-160 degrees. Since I'm going to be doing my next batch soon I have a question then about specialty grains.

Say a recipe calls for 1 pound of specialty grains and you steep them @ 160 in 3/4 gallons of water. When you add more water to acheive your boil volume won't you dilute the tea? So should I double the specialty grains so that I can do a larger steep volume and don't dilute the tea? Or will that original amount have the desired effect you're looking for? FWIW I'm trying to convert Dude's All Grain Pliny Clone to extract. I know how much LME I need to use but I need to get an answer on the specialty grains. He calls for .25 lbs Crystal 40 and .75 Cara-Pils, I'm using 9.5 pounds of LME.
 
I have the same question as schweaty. I usually steep in my 2.5 gallons, but I will try with the 3 quarts next time. After steeping to I go ahead and top off my boil so its 2.5 gallons?
 
I have the same question as schweaty. I usually steep in my 2.5 gallons, but I will try with the 3 quarts next time. After steeping to I go ahead and top off my boil so its 2.5 gallons?

Gents, that is what I did. I just finished brewing a batch tonight, steeped for 30 minutes at 160F in 3qts, then added another 2 gal of water for the boil. Got it up to 212F, added 2lbs of DME and hops....boiled for 45 minutes and then added the 4lbs of LME and let it steep (with the heat off) for 15 minutes. I'm hopeful that will take away the "twangy" extract flavor I've been experiencing in my brews. This was a berry beer (think basic wheat beer) and the SG was 1.042.

I'll keep you posted on how it turns out. I did use a starter, 1000mL.
 
I have the same question as schweaty. I usually steep in my 2.5 gallons, but I will try with the 3 quarts next time. After steeping to I go ahead and top off my boil so its 2.5 gallons?

Although I have not yet brewed my first batch, I can answer this with a bit of theory:

If you use the smaller amount of water to avoid extracting tannins with the normal amount of grain, you will get exactly what you want. The idea here is that if you used too much water, you would be extracting too much from the grains, and therefore getting the tannins, but with the lesser amount of water you will extract what you want without over-extracting.

Main reference: Good Eats episode "True Brew", season 2 ep. 7

In this episode, Alton describes how people have a tendency to say that they don't like strong coffee, but in reality they don't like *bitter* coffee. So they cut back on the coffee grains they use, and the coffee turns out more bitter because the smaller amount of coffee is being over-extracted.

I would assume the same problem is happening with specialty grains in beer brewing...
 
Main reference: Good Eats episode

Although not about beer, in the True Brew 2: Mr. Tea episode, he also talks a lot about different teas needing different volumes, temps and period of steeping in order to get the best flavor. Seems logical that the same could be true about grains.


MT
 
While the information in this thread so far makes sense, and I'll probably adjust my process accordingly, it seems odd to me that there are many on HBT (who I would consider quite knowledgeable) that do not think volume makes a difference when steeping.
 
When steeping specialty grains does anyone squeeze out all the remaining moisture from the steeping bag after the bag has cooled down enough to touch? I took my hands and squeezed out a bunch of gooey caramel looking stuff adding it to my boil. I wonder if I squeezed out some unwanted flavors in the process? I guess I will find out in about 4 more weeks. It is a pale ale that will be in primary 10 days, secondary 14 days, then bottle condition for 2 or 3 weeks. This will be only my 3rd batch of beer. My first 2 were spectacular. :)

I followed John Palmer's guide and used approximately the ratio of 3qt H20 per lb of grain .
 
I've heard to squeeze, and I've heard not to squeeze. I don't really know. What I have been doing is putting the grain bag in a large bowl, with a small glass or something in it to elevate the bag.

This lets the juice drain out from the bag without squeezing. Let it sit for a while, the add the drained off liquid to the brew pot.
 
:mug:I steep the grains in what the recipe calls for and then I pour through some 170 degree water. I then add all the water for a full boil. As long as your pot is big enough ( I have a 12 Gallon pot). I've always heard full boils are better for hop extraction and it really made a big difference in my beers.:mug::mug:
 
When steeping specialty grains does anyone squeeze out all the remaining moisture from the steeping bag after the bag has cooled down enough to touch? I took my hands and squeezed out a bunch of gooey caramel looking stuff adding it to my boil. I wonder if I squeezed out some unwanted flavors in the process? I guess I will find out in about 4 more weeks. It is a pale ale that will be in primary 10 days, secondary 14 days, then bottle condition for 2 or 3 weeks. This will be only my 3rd batch of beer. My first 2 were spectacular. :)

I followed John Palmer's guide and used approximately the ratio of 3qt H20 per lb of grain .

I have always squeezed the grain bag to get the extra moisture out. I think as long as you don't crest 170F threshold, you will not get off flavors from your steeping grain. Above that and you risk extracting tannins. Squeeze away, I say. :D
 
John Palmer says specifically to squeeze the grain bag after steeping.

How to Brew - By John Palmer - Example Batch

Remove the grain bag from the pot, giving it a squeeze to drain the excess wort and avoid dripping on the stove.

I ended up with the astringency at two weeks in the bottle but not from the squeezing. My first kit said to boil water then remove from heat and add grains. Didn't tell me to watch the temperature. However the bottle i just tried at three weeks had almost completely mellowed.
 
When steeping specialty grains does anyone squeeze out all the remaining moisture from the steeping bag after the bag has cooled down enough to touch?

I hold my grain bag out of the wort until most of the water naturally drains out. Then I put the grains in a bowl (still in the bag) and go about my boil while the last bit of "drippings" seep out of the bag and into the bowl. After 15-20 mins or so (or whenever I have enough) I add whatever little bit I get from the bowl to the boil and start my countdown for hop additions from there...

-Tripod
 
I believe from reading that what you want to do is sparge the grain bag instead of squeezing it. Boil a bit of water on the side, and when you pull the bag out, you take that water and pour it over the grain bag to get out all the goodness without squeezing it. Squeezing = tannins = not good.
 
Does the amount you rinse the grains with matter? I'm going to try the 3qt to 1 lb ratio but rinsing afterward?

:mug:
 
Er, John Palmer's "How To Brew" specifically says to squeeze the bag. I think it's already been established that tannins are from ph and temperature.
 
To squeeze or not to squeeze is the question.
I've been squeezing and have had good brews. I'd hate to waste all the extra liquid, but will I get a better brew if I don't?
I assume I won't know until I brew the same beer side by side, one squeezed, one not.
 
just run hot water through the grain instead. you're not wasting any flavor, color, or wort and you're not squeezing which may indeed extract tannins. you probably don't notice because you are using a small amount of grain...with a large amount it could become noticeable.

always take the extra step to ensure you're getting the best beer possible. that not only helps to make it great, but helps you to know what you're doing wrong WHEN you have a problem. you could make beer in a toilet bowl and it could come out good...doesn't mean you should do it. don't half-ass sanitation, don't half-ass your process, especially when the alternative is so easy.
 
Ok, that makes sense to run water through it before tossing, but now I have a question what do with the bags of grain while they are steeping?
I've been pulling the bags out of the water like a tea bag in water to extract as much color and sugars from the grain, a couple time in the 30min bath. Should I be doing something different? I usually only add 1/2lb per muslin bag and tie it at the top to allow the grain some room and not to be formed into a ball.
 
I am still with DB on this. So maybe its ok to squeeze a small amount of grains. Although everyone's definition of squeezing can be different. If I did squeeze, I definitely wouldn't give it a death grip.

LX, I do the same with the bag, pick it up gently, move it around some. I cook on the stove and put my pot near the edge of the flame then try to keep the grains on the other side away from direct heat. I get at least 1 lb of grain in a bag and it is jammed up in a ball. One time when I was done, I cut the bag open to make sure water had soaked through all the way and it had.
 
what I do is get the water to about 155 or 160 and then just turn the burner off and chuck the grains in there and leave it for a half hour, maybe heat it up some if it tries to drop below 150 or so. Then I scoop 'em out with a strainer. Works every time, no "squeezing" issues.
 
Muslin bag knotted at the very end- Let it steep and swell around 150, gently moving to on occasion to ensure it doesn't touch the bottom of my brew kettle much. Then I grab a beer in one hand, muslin bag in the other, and hold it over the kettle while I ramp of the wort some more- consume beer in other.
 

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