What Temp for Lagering?

I asked this once before and got no replies. Here goes again:

I made a honey-ginger winter warmer using lager, ale and hefe yeasts. Fermented around 58-60F, and fermentation went very well. 095->025. I could see the lager and ale yeasts both working. Anyway, over the weekend, I purchased a new chest freezer and a temp regulator . Since it's got lager AND ale yeasts, is it okay that I'm lagering it at mid-to-upper-thirties? Also, how long would you recommend lagering in secondary? I'd like to do a true lager soon, now that I actually have the lagerator, so I'm wondering how long it will be occupado. Thanks!

Evan! said:

I made a honey-ginger winter warmer using lager, ale and hefe yeasts.

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I've never heard of using multiple yeast strains in a single beer. Have you tried this before? Where did you get the idea? Sounds interesting.

As for fermentation temperature, is there any intersection between the recommended ranges for the specific yeasts you're using? Perhaps post the specific yeasts you're using and see whether anyone here has experience using them outside their recommended temp ranges.

I think the problem is that you're doing something that no one here has done before and you want someone to answer your questions of how to do it.

If you want to do a real lager, the ideal temp for lagering is as close to freezing as you can get, and for as long as you can bear to wait. At least a month.

nosnhojr said:

I've never heard of using multiple yeast strains in a single beer. Have you tried this before? Where did you get the idea? Sounds interesting.

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It was a weird chain of events. I brewed a belgian dubbel, and pitched a wyeast abbey activator directly onto it. 3 days in, I still had no activity. I had no other liquid yeast that I wanted to use, and I have no LHBS, but I know the brewmaster at a local brewpub, and while he didn't have any belgian strains at the time, he suggested mixing those three and seeing what happens. However, when I returned home that night ready to repitch, the abbey yeasts had decided to get to work. So, rather than let this big mason jar full of cool yeast go to waste, I decided to brew the next week. It was fun to watch it ferment---you could see the lager yeast pushing up from the bottom, and the ale yeast dropping from above, so everything was swirling around like a cauldron .

nosnhojr said:

As for fermentation temperature, is there any intersection between the recommended ranges for the specific yeasts you're using? Perhaps post the specific yeasts you're using and see whether anyone here has experience using them outside their recommended temp ranges.

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Since I didn't pitch from commercial packaging, I'm not sure. I think he uses mostly WhiteLabs stuff. I'm pretty sure the Ale was the British Ale strain, and maybe the hefe was the German, and the lager was the Bavarian. But I thought that 58-60 was a pretty safe bet for those three.

Mikey said:

I think the problem is that you're doing something that no one here has done before and you want someone to answer your questions of how to do it.

If you want to do a real lager, the ideal temp for lagering is as close to freezing as you can get, and for as long as you can bear to wait. At least a month.

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Well, I was hoping someone had done it. I'll see, I guess. I've never heard of mixing before, but oddly enough, I saw in ProMash where you can specify "Ale", "Lager" or "Ale/Lager Mix", so perhaps it's not as uncommon as I think.

I'm certainly no expert, but I'm trying my first true lager right now. I've got a Midwest Oktoberfest kit - kicked up with a couple of extra pounds of DME to ~1.050 OG. I pitched my White Labs Marzen/Oktoberfest yeast at approx 75 deg and threw it in the fridge with the Johnson controller set to 45. Checked one day later and no bubbles (although the rubber grommet airlock fitting is not the tightest seal on earth ) and the temp was hanging around 50 deg.

I don't know if I screwed anything up, but that's what I did. I'll let you know if I never get any bubbling.

Focus

Rdwhahb!!!

Yeast Will Come Through!

Rdwhahb!!!

Use Three One Or Two!!

Rdwhahb!!!

Focus said:

I'm certainly no expert, but I'm trying my first true lager right now. I've got a Midwest Oktoberfest kit - kicked up with a couple of extra pounds of DME to ~1.050 OG. I pitched my White Labs Marzen/Oktoberfest yeast at approx 75 deg and threw it in the fridge with the Johnson controller set to 45. Checked one day later and no bubbles (although the rubber grommet airlock fitting is not the tightest seal on earth ) and the temp was hanging around 50 deg.

I don't know if I screwed anything up, but that's what I did. I'll let you know if I never get any bubbling.

Focus

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Did you make a starter beforehand? Also, there's a bit of a controversy surrounding this subject, but some people wait for signs of fermentation prior to dropping the temp. But I'm certainly no expert on lagers---I just got my lagerator on friday.

I would think that he Ale yeast would go dormant pretty quickly at that temp. I would be a little concerned that the dormant ale yeast might hit autolysis before the lager finished its job. I probably would have made it like a California common (full fermentation at ale temps) if it were me.

dantodd,

You mean during fermentation? Given what I witnessed during fermentation, I'm pretty sure that the ale and lager yeasts were both very active throughout the entire thing. I could actually see it happening. And given that autolysis takes a few months to happen, I'm not worried about that in the least. I hit a good FG, too, so that's promising. At the end of the day, I think the fermentation went well, I'm just wondering what temps to lager at.

Evan! said:

Did you make a starter beforehand? Also, there's a bit of a controversy surrounding this subject, but some people wait for signs of fermentation prior to dropping the temp. But I'm certainly no expert on lagers---I just got my lagerator on friday.

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I did not make a starter beforehand and I did not let the fermentation get going before throwing in the fridge. So seeing as how my airlock is of questionable reliability - at least in the way of showing activity - I'm probably doubly fooked. Probably looking at a stuck fermentation, right? I guess I'll be checking the ever popular "stuck fermentation" thread for help with that one. I forgot to check for activity yesterday, but will today.

Does anyone else out there have an opinion on / experience with the cooling the beer after fermentation vs. immediately after pitching. The White Labs website just says that the Marzen/Oktoberfest yeast is good 52-58 deg, but doesn't make any recommendation about letting it get going before dropping the temp (apart from a good starter which, of course I didn't do).

Sorry, Evan! Didn't mean to hijack your thread... just thought my noob lagering experience may help you as well.

Focus

No worries, focus. I think I got what I needed, or at least, all that I'm going to get.

You may or may not have a stuck fermentation. It's harder to tell with lagers because they bottom-ferment. I'd say try another stopper/airlock.

I checked it this morning and had zero airlock activity - this of course could be due to the fact that the rubber grommet in my drilled 6.5-gal plastic bucket is not very tight OR it could be a stuck / never-started fermentation. I'm going to crack the lid - something I never do - and see if there's any discernable activity. I know Lager yeast is bottom-fermenting, but will there be any krausen or residue in the bucket if everything went okay?

In the meantime, I'm going to add a new grommet and a vial of the same yeast to my next order from the boys at Midwest. If all else fails, I'll bring it back to 70-ish deg, replace the grommet, pitch a new vial and wait for some bubbling before returning it to the lagerator.

Wish me luck...