Massive Strength Hard Cider

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BrewinJack

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So i have a conundrum for you guys, i had thanksgiving today and the topic went round to home brew. My cider was not present and it came up in conversation that a friend of a friend had some really pime stuff. The recipe was outlined as this.

5 gallons of sweet apple cider (pasturized but not with preservatives from the local press)
10 pounds of black sugar (a mixture of maltsugar, northern black molasses, dark clove honey, and find ground black tea leaves)
bring it all to temp to kill bacteria then pour into 7 gallon carboy and set outside in snow to cool
When cool pinch in yeast and let sit about 50% longer then normal hard cider
The yeast was said to be a yeast called "18 and Over" and was called a highout put wine yeast with a extreamly high tolerance.

So this is the topic up for discussion, the supposedyeild from all this was about 21%ABV with a mildly sweet but almost desert dry cider (i pointed out that was a contridiction that you either have sweet or dry and it was eventually compared to the sweet yet dry taste of very very fine slow gin, which i enjoy very much... obviously not with out the gin betonical flavor but more of an apple flavor... So upon ariving home i immeadatly look up this mystery yeast, if it exist i was unable to locate it on the web i posted at a few sites for more information but no luck yet, i dont think it exists... alot about this story strikes me as urban legend but i would like to recreat this and possiably have it work the way it is advertised because it sounds amazing... any ideas??? post em here

Cheer
 
Supposedly yeast tend to die out at 18-20% alcohol, but there seems to be exceptions.
A search shows things like "Super Yeast".
Champagne yeasts tolerate 16 to 20 percent.
My current mead is started at 1.122, using champagne yeast, I have fermentation but I'll be adding nutrients tomorrow.
Sam Adams has that Ninja yeast that supposedly gets up to 25% or so, but in any case I think you would have to do multiple additions of nutriants, energizers, and feeding of additional black sugars to keep the yeast from bombing out and avoiding a super sweet cider.
 
[ame=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=turbo+yeast&aq=f&oq=]turbo yeast - Google Search[/ame]

thay are real thay are called turbo yeast or distillers yeast
 
thay are fun to play with...
i have a buddy that has a larger grain silo
and this year he gave me 100 gal of "Corn Squeezens" in two Plasic 55 gal drums that had milk replacer in them.
i fermintd it in the drums ,, used some "water removing" techs and put it in some white oak barrels i made over the summer , should be really nice in a few years
you cant get corn squeezens libations anymore its an old timey treat
 
If you want your cider to taste like hooch (ie crap) go ahead an use turbo yeast. This yeast leaves lots of funky tasting byproducts in the brew - it is meant for distillation so that most of that stuff gets left behind.

If you want a decent high concentration yeast use a champagne type yeast like Lalvin EC-1118. It can comfortably get to 18% and under ideal lab conditions can get up to 21%. The brew in question will continue to taste sweet if the yeast dies from alcohol poisoning before it finishes eating all the sugar (note there is a sugar concentration limit at which yeast will not even start working)
 
same fermentation just extended. Put in enough sugar to get and OG of 1.090 when that gets down to 1.010 and more sugar to bring it up to 1.075. repeat till all the sugar is used or the SG stops dropping.
 
Thanks guys this a a great start, the advice is much appriciated... yeah i knew about the so called "turbo yeast" and also knew that most brewers and distillers hate the stuff and that so often is causes more trouble then even the high ABV it somtimes manages is worth... I was gonna start collecting ingredents for this today and tommrrow, and maybe get this going on suday or the fallowing tuesday when time presents it self... if anybody else gets any ideas i would love to here them, along witha ny of the advice alond the way... I am gonna document this entire batch right here incase anybody wants to recreat it or if i do... so it begins, thanks again

Cheers
 
Got the yeast today, a five pack of the LV-118 Champagne yeast and i got 5 because i am likely to start a batch of mead somtime soon to play with.

Tommrrow shopping list adds

- 5 gallons Motts/ or Orchard Farms apple juice or equivlaient (or even organic fresh cider if i can find it and its not to expensive)

- 8 pounds dark brown sugar

- 6 pounds honey

- 3 pounds molasses

- 1/2 pound ground black tea leaves


Current working recipe

5 gallons apple juice high quality apple juice (bring to temp)
4 pounds Dark Brown Sugar (dissolved in juice)
3 pounds clove honey (dissolved in juice)
1 pound molasses(dissolved in juice)
3-4oz black tea leaves (steaped in juice)

Bring to temp, let stand at temp for 20 min to kill off unwanted bactiera
Tansfer to carboy and set out side in snow to cool
after cool take OG reading, then pinch in packet of LV-118 yeast and cover and set inside to ferment
Wait three weeks
After three weeks check SG reading, add sugar if nessary to increase fermentation to former levels
wait 2 weeks
After 2 more weeks check SG reading add sugar if nessary to increase fermentation to former levels
After 1 more week check SG reading add sugar to increase fermentation to former level
Wait 1 week
Get fed up and drink half of it before properly finnished, or repeat former steps
Wait 1 week
Repeat former steps
In total after 9 weeks
Check SG and decide weather to continue or if desired ABV and taste have been reachedn if so rack off yeast sediment let settle and stop fermentation and bottle
If not then add sugar and resume fermentation
In Total of 12 weeks check SG pronouce the myth busted if not right, rack, allow to settle, and bottle
Bottle in 22oz bottles with priming tabs allow 2 weeks for carbination and mellowing
intotal after 11 weeks or 14 weeks open bottle and taste, if good drink bottle and rejoyce. If bad then be content that youve wasted 4 months of time trying to make a massivly strong hard cider which just be made...

Note: if this does work and i were to let it sit for say six months then i think i can no longer call it hard cider, its apple champagne...

cheers

if you see any flaws in this plan point them out and i will augment as to what seems reasonable
 
Flaw, Dont heat the cider. All it will do is set the pectins and it will never clear. Use Campden tablets 1 per gallon instead. crush and mix in 24 hours before you add the yeast.
 
BrewinJack - I would recommend doing a stepped feeding for the inital additions.
- 8 pounds dark brown sugar
- 6 pounds honey
- 3 pounds molasses
- 1/2 pound ground black tea leaves
Add some yeast nutrient into this mix.

Then add 1/4th of that into the apple juice, pitch the yeast, wait until you start smelling the rhino farts, then add another 1/4 take a measurement, wait a day or two, add another 1/4. I am thinking by this time your fermentation may be slowing. I am all for making high octane ciders, but I have to be able to drink and enjoy them. The last 1/4 addition will be your problem area, and please keep us informed on how it works out.
 
Edited grocery list

5 gallons pure apple juice (15$)

8 pounds light brown sugar (6$)

5 pounds high quality mixed raw honey (20$)

2 pounds Black molasses (7$)

LV-118 yeast (2$)

total = 50$

Knowing that one day all the hard work is gonna pay off, and you can just get stupid drunk because you have 5 gallons worth... Priceless

somthings money cant buy, but for everything else theres mastercard

tommrrow things go into the pot, im expecting a very high SG to start with, and im expecting a long ferment time... thinking warm fermentation, rather then cold... any thoughts???

Cheers
 
Thankx kahuna, i was wondering about the intitial high content, and also in what order to add all of it... I will definatly keep you informed... it will be hard not to keep a day to day log running on this one... I dont know Shoe im not sure this counts as hooch... it seems pretty delicate as it is... and hooch isnt very delicate, but the joke is appreciated... i would rather not use Camp tabs, i have a dislike for them, but the good news the juice i have is of decent quality and its pasturized already so i dont have to worry about Camp tabs my only worry would be getting the stuff to dissolve with out heat... to get the honey and black molasses and the browne sugar incorperate themselves in the brew... this causes a problem... could use a hint here...
 
my only worry would be getting the stuff to dissolve with out heat... to get the honey and black molasses and the browne sugar incorperate themselves in the brew... this causes a problem... could use a hint here...

I used a blender. You may need to mix your honey & molasses with your juice in 1 or 2 pound (roughly) increments depending on your blender's motor power; mine will only do 2 pounds of honey at a time & only with sufficient juice to thin it. I've also warmed the honey/molasses/juice in the microwave prior to blending, just enough to warm it though. You could certainly use the same technique to mix the brown sugar as well. The blender often takes some time to use, but it works well, does the job without heat (except for the optional microwave thing) and has the added benefit of super areating the must. You can even mix in your yeast nutrients that way. It works well for me, maybe it'll work well for you. Regards, GF.
 
Damn just lost this whole post...

Well everything is in the fermenter, well not everything had a gallon of mixed apples juice and sugars left not in the fermenter ... calcualted it out to about 7lbs of fermentable sugars in the whole 5 gallon batch, this is based on 70% of honey being fermentable, 50% of molasses being fermentable, and 100% of brow sugar being fermentable... i actully got about 4.8 pounds of honey, 1.25 pounds of molasses, and 3 pounds of brown sugar... so on avrage about a 1.5 pounds of sugar per gallon which is fermentable... plus the sugar already in the apple juice... its not from concentrate so its not a crap load but it is there, so at max about 2lbs of fermntables per gallon... which is pretty high, but less then a sweet mead, which has about 3.5 gallons of honey pergallon of water, which avrages out to 2.45 pounds of fermentables pergallon.... i dont know i am just worried i over sugared things...

i had a plan but like all best laid plans it failed misseriable... i was gonna add the sugar in thirds, but foudn that i would not have the room in the fermenter for the additions with 5 gallons of juice, i also needed to get the sugars good and mixed in and the brew well aired... well i think im ok... i hope im ok... the whole pack of LV-118 went it and got mixed in... i then mised in the nutrients and set the fermenter on the stairs to the apartment with the airlock in place to get started... i hope it works... i really do...

Thanks gratus the blender idea helped imensly... i have worked hard, and i wish i had a brew to crack open... my cider last batch of cider is in secondary, and my last bottle got drank last night... i will draw off a pint of regular store bought draft cider and sit down and dream of this batch tonight....

thinking of getting a bigger fermenter... maybe a 7 gallon ale pail and adding the last gallon of mix to the main batch tommrrow or the next day, perhaps with some more yeast to keep things going??? im worried i under pinched with only one envalope... and i would like the whole batch to ferment at once, rather then in stages... i would also still add more sugar to keep boosting achohal content along the way... much easier to do while it in a ale pail rather then in a carboy...

cheers
 
What is the OG of this ambrosia?

I'll bet that it is so high that it will not ferment, and if it does start, it will probably stall out multiple times.

You'll probably have to divide this batch up into at least 3, maybe more, separate 5 gallon primaries (a hydrometer will tell you how many), and then top off with apple juice to get something half way workable and drinkable!

If you just want rocket fuel, you could have bought a lot of Everclear (MasterCard!!!) for what you've already got invested, with much less work and wait!

Pogo
 
the OG was high, quite high... i would have to look it up for you now... hold up...ok OG was 1.82 if im reading the hydrometer right... which i doubt i am because i have never seen a SG that high... maybe 1.082... my hydrometer is rather new to me, i used to have one with just three little lines on it... one was blue for too high... one was green for bottle, and one was red and it was in the middle of the too and it stood for prime SG... it was a distillers wort hydrometer, and i used it to make regular hard cider... get the SG on the red line and then wait until it reached the green line and it was normally around 8 percent... i am betting its too high as well but all i can do is hope. I will keep you posted

This isnt a want for rocket fule... if i wanted rocket fule i would drink kerosean or i would make a still and distill regular hard cider into apple brandy... no i am doing this to see if its possiable, the story i was told was somthing close to a old wives tale, or a myth out of brewing history... you know what i mean the stories that start with "My Grand Pappie was a brewer back during prohibition and he found out how to make sugar into pure gold, and heres how..." If it doesnt start i will cut it down into 3 or 4 more fermenters and call the myth busted... think of this as the Brewing Myth-Busters, it proves that you cant piss into a fermenter pour in some sugar and yeast and get ****ing tasters choice... it also makes a great mix for starting about 20 gallons of top knotch hard cider if it doesnt work... also i would like a decent high proof hard cider, can you imagin... apple shnapps is about 35proof and its a distilled product, if you can hit 18-21% in a hard cider then youve topped a distilled liquor and the stuff is between 36-42 proof, if it taste good... that is a tribute to the brewers eginuity and ability, then once and for all we have proven that hard liquor is not the only option... but we have also made a brew with violates BATFA's rule on home brew which puts the cap of a brewed bevrage ABV at 20%.... To put egg on the face of BAFTA would be worth the trouble, and maybe they will rasie the content... it will prove once and for all that it isnt what you drink that makes you who you are, but what you brew...

damn i think i should have not had that third pint, i am starting to try be a brew pub politician

cheers :drunk:
 
ok i did under pinch... i under pinched by a **** load... i am so under pinched i need a shovle and a fuggin funnel to get yeasted properly... ok heres an update... after i settled down and thought about it i went looking for highgravity brewing tips... apperntly for a 20 degree brew like the one i have constructed i would need 20 million yeast cells per ml to ever come close to starting fermentation and maintaining fermentation... the avrage dry yeast envalope has 30 - 50 billion yeast cells in it and thats is because it is expected that 40-50% are dead... so at 50% entraphy the singel yeast packet i put in yeilded only 3.9 million per ml... which is fine for your regular brew... but it will need to be multiplied by 5 times to ever see anything possiable useful... good thing i bought so much yeast the first time through... i will pinch it in tommrrow, as well as get more because in total i will need 7 packets to jump start this brew... i am also going to add more yeast neutrients because i am willing to bet whats already in there wont due at all at all... well i at least have a shot now, probably should have checked on this before i started eh?

Cheers
 
Hold up...hold up!!!!

Take another gravity reading before you do ANYTHING!!!!

I can't believe that the OG, with ALL of that sugar, would only be in the 1.080's.

If your first reading is accurate...then you are good to go!

I figured that it would be at least 1.120>.

I only add 2 pounds (4 heaping cups) of cane sugar to 6 gallons of apple juice, and end up with an OG of 1.073~, and an ABV of 9.8.

IF the OG is accurate, then one packet of yeast should do the job.

If the OG turns out to be WAY higher, then I doubt if even a shovelful of yeast will start it!

You'll probably have to dilute the batch.

Just re-check everything out tomorrow!

Pogo
 
Will do pogo, got to get more yeast if going to dilute anyway... i will retake the OG tonight and then decide on what to do.

Cheers
 
ITSSS ALIVE!!! ITS ALIVE!!!!!

Today i went out and got enough apple juice to cut the cider down into 3 batches of a more manageable OG to ferment. That was alot of apple juice, but i was lucky and ran across a sale at Walmart so it wasnt as bad as it could have been. I went to class and drove home through the worse snow storm michigan has had in the last five minutes and i was walking up stairs to my apartment and i looked into the fermenter and behold there is a ring of foam around the top of the fermenter, and even more yet the ocasional tiny bubble in the solution which went up and met the foam, as a i watched the air lock bubbled a little... just to make sure i gentally removed the airlock and stuck my nose in over the hole and what is it i smell but the beautiful smell of brewing hard cider.... as of right now the fermentation is slow and weak but i have added two moer packets of LV-118 dry yeast to boost cell count and moved it into a warmer place to facilitate germination... ITS ALIVE!!!... The OG was high yesterday and it was high enough to make me worry but it is fermenting and will one day have hard cider, i have also added yeast nurtrients to help the yeast along... but Operation Black Gold is off the ground and proceeding slowly to target i would say the OG was at least 1.125if not more but things are going now... i assume i will have a rocky start ahead but the hardest part is over for now

Cheers
 
I wanted to update to see if i got any more hit on this thread, but it has been roughly 12 days since fermentation started in ernest and it fermented hard for 3-4 days, had to add a blow off tub because of krusen filling the air lock with cider and gumming things up with less that fell out of solution in the airlock...

To date fermentation is still going strong... always looks like a bottle of soda water which was shook up... Getting a large yeast sediment on the bottom but will not rack off of yeast for at least another 14-16 days... went into rhino farts roughly a week ago and took about 5 days for smell to reside... After taking a more accurate initial OG reading the OG war 1.128 and my target SG is right around 1.000 im not sure what the final ABV will be at that point... i would appriciate sombody to run that number for me...

Thanks, cheers, and happy holidays... this stuff wont be ready for christmas
 
Off the top of my head (thumbs being what they are), I guess 17.4% -- do you think your yeast will carry that far, Ted?

not sure, i would hope so... i knew i was heading into problems with HG in this brew... i would like to squeeze 18% out of this one but im not sure... it was kind of a Fug Around when i put in the ingredants and ended up mixing in as much as i could and hoping... this yeast is supposed to be extreamly tought and agressive, thats why i chose it for that reputation... i suppose that anything over 15% i will be happy to get as long as its not too sweet... i prefer dry cider... and this experiement was a first crack at at making a process in which a person could brew consistantly above 20%... im not there yet as is obvious... i guess i will have to keep trying... thanks for the number chrunching joe and the web sit... ran across that myself when i was worrying weather or not it would start at all, it didnt alay my fears but it is a good refrence for what im thinking... thanks

Still fermenting... still fementing, nothing out last the high ABV cider

Cheers
 
Awesome, nice to see your experiment is working. Keep us updated, we brewers tend to forget to put the finished process in threads like these.
 
Awesome, nice to see your experiment is working. Keep us updated, we brewers tend to forget to put the finished process in threads like these.

nope havent forgotten, the subject code named "black gold"; named for the color of the liquid in the fermenter when the yeast was added. Has been in primary fermentation for 19 days(21 days since yeast added) ...

the first 2 days no fermenation was noted, on day three limited frementation was finally noticed. Fermentation became constant on December 2nd and that is the day i have counted fermentation from. On day 5 (december 7th) vigoris fermenation was noted and for the next 3-5 days the airlock was regularlly empited and refilled with clean water and ablow off tube was added. Fermentation steadied and with out incident for the nest 12 days. 13 days into primary fermentation the regular foam of fermentation began to disipate and rate of fermentation slowed to a much slower level. In an effort to keep fermentation as strong as possiable and as long as possiable the fermenter was insulatied and heated to a constant rate with a common heating pad and electirc blanket. Fermenter currently maintains a tempature of just over 70f degrees and fermenation has stablized and partical foam has returned to the fermenter, but not as much as was noted between days 10-11.

Things that need to be done;

check current SG. I have been putting this off because i fear even moving the fermenter or draining off a sample for testing will cause dammage to the yeast which will cause premature flameout... on another two weeks of fermentation before testing is required.

Require a glass carboy for secondary for long term fermentation and possaible bulk ageing purpose.... will actully likely bottle condition for sevral months thinking that i will rack into glass carboy and add more sugar to boost ABV in a second fermentation (this will liekly be required and difficult because i atleast expect an ABV when rected into the glass carboy of 10-15%, which if combined with any SG say over 1.050 will not likely allow fermentation to continue properly if at all) Fermentation will be continued if possiable until late feb-early march at which time reguardless of ABV the cider will be bottled and set to condition for 3 months. The tested for potablity, if applicable half the batch will be put into cericulation and the other half will be left for an additional 3 months. If not considered potable at that time besed on many factors, the cider will be left sit an addition month then test again and so on until considered potable, and then remaining stock will be slip half for drink and half for ageing an additional 3 months....

Thats the plan... right now its just a plan, but the fermentater sure smells good;)

Cheers
 
I'm Excited about your project and totally confused. I just started a 55 gallon barrel. Filled it with 50 lbs of sugar, yeast and yeast nutrients and after 3-4 weeks it's hardly bubbling any more. Should I add sugar to get it going again or just let it be for 3 months? Can't wait to see how yours turns out!

Chris
 
You should only add more sugar to get it going again if you want more alcohol. However if it truly stopped fermenting and you still have sugar left in the brew, then adding sugar will do nothing. You need to look into restarting a stuck fermentation, such as repitching with a starter, or changing the temperature or aeration, all depending on where it is in the fermentation cycle. It may just be done fermenting, and you just need to let it age and clear.
 
well I guess it's time to go to the brew store and buy some tools to measure whats going on. Thanks
 
I'm Excited about your project and totally confused. I just started a 55 gallon barrel. Filled it with 50 lbs of sugar, yeast and yeast nutrients and after 3-4 weeks it's hardly bubbling any more. Should I add sugar to get it going again or just let it be for 3 months? Can't wait to see how yours turns out!

Chris

50 lbs of sugar in 55 gallons of liquid will give you a OG of less than 1.045. That should finish out pretty quickly. When you get your Hydrometer take a reading and let us know what it is at.
Was it water or Juice?
 
50 lbs of sugar in 55 gallons of liquid will give you a OG of less than 1.045. That should finish out pretty quickly. When you get your Hydrometer take a reading and let us know what it is at.
Was it water or Juice?

how do you figure? thats almost a pound of sugar per gallon. i would say it would be closer to 1.80
 
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