Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

What you do is up to you, but I can assure you that cold crashing works if you do it right. I've made well over 400 gallons of cider in the past 10 years, cold crashed most of it, store at room temp and never had a problem. I do mostly kegs, but I've also done close to 300 liter bottles, also stored at room temp. The only time I've ever cracked a bottle was with a wild yeast batch that I made last year and crashed at 1.020. One of the bottles cracked over the summer, sometime in July. I knew I was pushing the envelope with that batch, usually I crash at 1.010 or lower.

I've never had a problem cold crashing gallon batches, regardless of the yeast, other than the aforementioned bottle of wild yeast. I've also never had a problem with 5 gal batches of Nottingham, S04, US05 or 3068. 5 gal batches of 4184 and S23 have been a little tougher to stop.

Pasteurized juice does take longer to crash. Probably because the yeast binds to the pectin, which is slow to fluctuate. I forgot to mention that before. I havent used pasteurized juice in a while.

At any rate, its easy enough to test this yourself. Rack it, chill it for a day or two, rack it again and let it come back up to room temp. Let it sit for as long as you want. If the sg stays stable, you're good. If not, you can drink it, keg it or sorbate and bottle it. Either way, you havent lost anything.

If you cold crash and bottle it though, its going to be still. All the priming sugar is going to do is sweeten it.

k-meta and k-sorbate both leave easily discernible tastes. The k-meta is less obnoxious if added after fermentation, but still has some taste. k-sorbate leaves a more prominent taste, but it is less objectionable than the k-sorbate. This is something you can easily verify yourself if you are bottling - bottle a few before you add any chemicals. Then add the chemicals and bottle the rest. Then you can compare them later. You may find that you like the taste of the sorbate, but you will definitely notice a difference.

I have backsweetened kegs with a mix of organic cane sugar and dextrose if I accidentally let one ferment out too far. You can get an acceptable taste, but its not the same as the natural sugar. The last half a percent or so is where most of the complex sugars in the apple juice get fermented and those complex sugars are what gives you the apple taste. Cane and corn sugar can get you back to something that is drinkable, but its not the same flavor - at least not if you are starting with fresh pressed apple juice.

so, if i understand right, cold crashing following this method would effectively stop fermentation and stabilize your drink for backsweetening, without the need for chemicals?

Yes, but if you cold crash before the yeast ferments out all the apple sugar - somewhere between 1.002 and 1.010 according to taste - you wont need to backsweeten

oh, i know about the fact that not fermenting all the way will give you with a sweeter cider, i wanted to know if cold crashing would really stabilize your brew and prevent any future yeast activity.

I suppose the theory behind it is linked to dramatically lowering the yeast cell count in your batch by racking it all off..?

well its the kind of question i will be able to answer on this forum in a couple of weeks, i'm undertaking oenology studies to become an assistant winemaker in the local wine industry... first course was yesterday... wish me luck!!!!

That clears up a lot. Now I'm satisfied. I'm going to give it a try.

I typically use potassium sorbate to stabilize my ciders and wine. I don't really notice much of a taste from it, but maybe it is just me.

In theory cold crashing should cause all of the yeast to settle out in a relatively short amount of time. However I have never tried it YMMV.

Another method that is used is sterile filtering, which is common in wine making.

Steve

Sterile filtering might be a worthwhile option. Buon Vino makes a home sized unit that can filter a gallon a minute, which is a whole lot faster than cold crashing. The rub is that the cider has to be pretty clear before you run it through the filter and it would be still fermenting and cloudy at this point. It would be interesting to see if adding some Bentonite to a fermenting batch could clear it long enough to then run it through a filter, and what effect that would have on the taste.

Ideally one of the yeast suppliers will come up with a yeast that naturally finishes at 7 or 8 percent abv. That would really cut the time it takes to make a keg of semi-dry and you could even bottle carb. Maybe one of us will get lucky and find a wild yeast that has a naturally lower abv tolerance than ale yeast. Until then I’ve resigned to cold crashing for at least another season. I’ll probably try k-sorbate again next season to see how it works with different yeasts. The taste isnt bad, just different, and it might go better with Nottingham or US05. It did clear the cider nicely – better than cold crashing. It may also fade by the next tasting.

I’ve become more of a fan of cysers this season, partly because I made some better tasting ones and partly because they crash and clear so fast. I’ve gotten best results so far with S04, Stayman blends and Basswood and Orange Blossom Honey that I got from Northern Brewer. Also I made two cysers with Jonathan juice and clover honey that I let ferment out and they cleared very fast. I just crashed two more cysers last week that did not clear as well as the previous ones this season. They cleared a lot in a couple of days and have got more clear since sitting in secondaries for a week, but didn’t get the overnight glass finish that the first ones did. I’m not sure if this is because of the juice (Staymans and Romes) or honey (NB Clover and Wildflower) or possibly even brewing temps (lower and slower than usual).

kevin,

Very informative thread you've got going here...I think I am going to try my first batch shortly and I am going to try a Cyser with the S04 yeast on your recommendation.

I'm in central NC and I was planning on just getting some cider from a local grocery store - what would you suggest I do to find some locally mashed cider like you are using?

Should I just find the closest apple orchard and give them a call? It seems most of the orchards are in the Appalachians which is too long of a drive for me. However if they have a distributer that is local I would like to find it. I would prefer to know the blend of apples used and know that the cider I get is UV pasteurized only, as I have a keg system and would like this drinkable ASAP!

Much thanks for all of your good work and contribution, hopefully I can provide some insight in the future.

Hi Czerewko – The website “all about apples” has pretty good listings for orchards in each state, as well as info about a lot of apple varieties. Here is their listing for NC. You also might want to check with your local Farm Bureau.

All About Apples | North Carolina Apple Orchard and Farm Listings

My guess is that you are going to have a tough time finding fresh pressed juice this late in the season, but you might get lucky, especially if someone close is pressing from apples in cold storage.

You can use unpasteurized juice and still drink it fairly quickly – just cut back on the dose of k-meta. If the juice is already pretty tart, don’t use any k-meta and if it is not very tart, add a half dose. Make sure the juice is really fresh though if its unpasteurized.

If you go with store bought juice, you might want to check out what is available and see how it tastes fresh, before fermenting anything. I tried fermenting some Orchard Valley juice, which Whole Foods carries. It was decent, but not as good as the fresh pressed stuff. You also might want to consider stopping it earlier, say between 1.010 and 1.020. The big commercial presses around here tend to use a lot of red delicious apples for table juice. It is good when it is fresh, but not as much taste left when you ferment most of the sugar off.

ok im in the middle of my winery assistant courses now and one important thing about kmeta i've learned is that the effective levels are below the tasting threshold.
When you add KMS, a huge part will get bound right away with many organic constituant of your wine/cider (around 90%, as bisulfate ions) leaving an amount of molecular SO2 that is relative to the pH of you juice/brew. Its that molecular SO2 that is antimicrobial, the rest aving antioxydant properties atfter a certain amount... 50 ppm if i recall....
So, if you are not in a financial position of buying a pH meter, i would suggest that if you can taste it, there's too much.

cheers

My guess is that the taste threshold for k-meta in cider is about a third of what it is for wine. Probably less. I can taste a third of the recommended (1/4tsp in 5 gal) dose in fresh pressed juice and my taste buds are not all that. Probably because cider has a different binding profile to the k-meta than does grape juice and the free S02 is what causes the taste. Or maybe it is easier to taste the bisulfate ions in apple juice.

Felix - Do any of your wine classes have a lab and does it have a way to measure free S02? Can you still get fresh apple juice in BC? It would be interesting to measure grape and apple juice side by side and see how much k-meta it takes to get free S02. Apple juice has less sugar and more ascorbic acid than grape juice. I’m sure there are other differences as well.

Halfway through this cider season I cut back on the k-meta. I made 10 keg batches with a little less than half the recommended k-meta dose (1/8 tsp in 6 gallons). All three cysers and two of the ale yeast ciders were ready to drink after cold crashing (3-4 weeks after pressing and pitching yeast). The others still had a little of the bite that I attribute to the k-meta and took a month or so extra to mellow out. Overall, great taste and less wait to be drinkable. I saved a couple liters from each batch to see how they hold up over time and will check these out again in June and Sept.

For the last 7 keg batches of the season, I added no k-meta at all. Five of these I crashed at 1.006 or higher and they were all good enough to drink as soon as they were cold crashed (4 weeks after pressing), although I havent kegged them yet. A couple got a little dryer than I like so I’m going to let these age a bit. I’ll save a few liters of all of these to see how they hold up over time.

At this point, I’m planning on not using any k-meta before fermentation for keg batches next season – just pitch the yeast as soon as I get the juice home. That will save a step and it seems to have a positive impact on the taste, at least for the first several months. Depending on how these kegs keep over time, I might add a bit of k-meta for long term storage, but I’m hoping they will last till next season with no additives.

I would not recommend skipping the k-meta unless you are sure the press you are using has good sanitation practices and you know the juice is fresh. If any doubts, or if the juice tastes bland, use a third or half the recommended dose. The place I get my juice keeps their press and apple handling equipment very clean and I show up early on pressing days so the juice goes right from the press to my carboys. I suppose that there is always a risk of getting a bug and having to toss a batch, but so far so good.

that is actually a great idea...
grape and apple juice are quite different in their biochemistry... for exemple, tartaric acid is specific to grapes and is present in big proportions to other fruit acids like ascorbic, malic, citric, etc
also, some phenolics play a big role in the binding of bisulphite ions... all in all i suspect white wine production to be closer to ciders than red wines, but that remains to be seen...
There is a lab part to my course, but i will probably prefer doing those kinds of trials with apple juice at the winery im working at. I'm not alone in these classes and schedules are tight....especially since next lab session is actually the final exam!!!
so yeah i will get back to you guys with this experiment asap.

bear with me! We're buzy in the vineyard this week, but on Monday i'll be back in the cellar (we'll be bottling the magnums!mmmmmmmh) so i'll try the experiments sometime in the day....

Hi CvilleKevin - I didn't notice any mention of yeast nutrient in any of your postings. Do you have any wisdom to share on this topic?

I havent used any yeast nutrients. I did a little bit of research on them last year and they seemed to be mostly for problems that I havent experienced (slow or stuck fermentations, rotten egg smell, etc). Some people swear by them though, so I suspect its a function of whatever juice you are starting with. Maybe if I found some great tasting juice that I couldnt get to ferment out, I would try it, but for now I'm sticking with the minimalist approach.

The last pressing of the season has almost all been kegged. It’s a mix of Yorks and Fujis, with a nice midrange flavor, not very tart, but a nice finish. SG 1.050 and pH 3.9. Pressed on Jan 5th, unpasteurized. I didn’t add any k-meta to these batches and cold crashed about a month later. I wasn’t as diligent on checking the SGs on these as I should have been and let several of them get too dry, but they all should be good in a few months.



42 gallons, seven keg batches, From left to right (on the back shelf):

S23 lager yeast, with 18oz turbinado and 9 oz dextrose, to bump SG to 1.060. I let this one go a little too far before crashing – all the way down to 1.000, which is too dry for my taste, but it has a good fruit finish and decent complexity, so it should be good in a few months

Wild yeast, no extra sugar. Crashed at 1.004. I might have let this one go too far also. It’s a little sour and lacking in body, but I’m hoping a few months of aging will shape it up.

S04 ale yeast, with 3lbs of white sage honey to boost SG to 1.065. Crashed at 1.008. This one is currently tapped and in the fridge. Great smell, taste and body, with just a hint of the honey taste. Cold crashing got it nice and clear. This one was very drinkable within about a month from pressing

S04 ale yeast, with 1 ½ lbs of basswood honey and 1 ½ lbs of clover honey. to boost SG to 1.065. The mix of basswood to clover worked out well. I tried just basswood honey on an earlier batch and found it a bit overpowering. I tasted it at 3 weeks and it was at 1.020 and really good. I crashed this batch a little too late though, at 1.002. The taste is good, though on the dry side, but lacking body. Should improve with age.

US05 ale yeast with 3lbs of wildflower honey to boost SG to 1.065. Crashed at 1.006. It tastes good, but is still a little funky smelling so I’m letting it sit for a while to see if it clears up.

US05 ale yeast, with 18oz turbinado and 9 oz dextrose, to bump SG to 1.060. Crashed at 1.004. Also currently tapped and in the fridge. Its nice and light, but not too dry, and makes a good counterpart to the S04 white sage batch. It was also very drinkable within about a month from pressing, although it didn’t clear quite as well from the cold crash as did the cysers.

Not shown (burp) – Wyeast 3068, with 18oz turbinado and 9 oz dextrose, to bump SG to 1.060. I racked this at 1.020 to slow the ferment down a little, which ended up stopping it. I still continued to get bubbles but the SG didn’t change. This is my girlfriend’s favorite and was one of the crowd favorites at the last party. It’s a very different taste than the ale yeast batches, lots of body and a bit of an orange juicy sort of taste with a sour finish. I wasn’t all that crazy about it myself, but it was the first keg to float so I wont argue. You do have to use a blowoff tube, because the 3068 makes soapy bubbles that will gum up your airlock otherwise.

I saved two liters of the 3068 batch and will try to save a couple of liters of the others, to see how they hold up over time without any k-meta.

Here is a picture of the York and Fuji batches, a couple of weeks after pressing. They started out as a dark chocolate brown color, but by the time of the photo the fermentation had lightened them up considerably



On the left back wall, next to the fridge, are five batches that were made from a mix of Staymans and Romes. The juice was pressed on November 24 and not very tart, but had an interesting spicy taste. Starting SG was 1.064! pH 3.8. I added half the recommended dose of k-meta to these (except for the wild batch) - 1/8 tsp in 6 gallons. As you can see, they did not clear up nearly as much as the other batches during cold crashing and were still dropping a lot of sediment in the secondaries. Perhaps they would have cleared eventually, but they tasted really good and so we drank ‘em cloudy. They are from left to right:

Wild yeast, no extra sugar. Crashed at 1.014. This was my first attempt at doing a wild fermented keg batch and overall one of the best wild batches I did this year. Even though the final SG was on the high side, it tasted dry with a nice, but not overwhelming sour note and a nice body and finish

S04 ale yeast, with 2lbs of wildflower honey to boost SG to 1.072. Crashed at 1.012. This was very, very good. I didn’t keg it until two months after crashing, by which time SG had dropped to 1.010. The honey gave it a nice smell and body, but not overpowering in the taste.

S04 ale yeast, with no additional sugar or honey. Crashed at 1.010. It had just a bit of the k-meta tang right after crashing, but it faded within a month. By the time I kegged it, two months later, it was outstanding. This was my favorite of the five Stayman/Rome batches.

US05 ale yeast, with no additional sugar or honey. Crashed at 1.006. The SG dropped a little more over the next two months to 1.004 by the time I kegged it. Nice and dry but has a bit of a caramel smell that hasn’t dissipated yet, so it’s the only keg of this batch which hasn’t been consumed yet. I’ve gotten this smell before and it usually goes away after a couple of months.

S04 ale yeast, with with 2lbs of clover honey to boost SG to 1.072. Crashed at 1.010, kegged a couple months later. Also very good. Not quite as good as the wildflower honey IMHO, but no complaints.

I saved two liters of each of these so I can check out how they hold up with aging

CvilleKevin - For your cider and cyser do you only use only juice + sweetener or do you use any specialty grains. If you use a special recipe, is it posted here somewhere. Also, I called Harry's Whole Foods in Roswell, GA today and they said that they would juice any apples that I want. So you can get fresh juice any time, I have not tried it yet though.

So far, no grains, just juice + sweetner. I might try LME or DME next season

I Just made 3 gallons of it. They have aged for a little over a month. 7.2% ABV. Absolutely deliciousness. Nottingham Yeast with the specified corn sugar to organic sugar ratio. Very Very Clear. I'm really pleased

Wow,
This whole thread is awesome guys. Tons of great information here.
My Fiance loves Strongbow Cider, but I don't know what it is particular to that brand that she likes. Maybe it's drier, maybe it's sweeter. Does anyone know? Anyway, I want to try my hand at making some simple cider at home, and before I found this thread, I ordered up some Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast and I'm going to try buying some Pasteurized Cider at the store. I'm, frankly, too excited about the whole thing to wait for the pressing season to start. I've got some yeast nutrient which, like the poster above, I'd read was a good thing to have when doing Cider.

However, I've got a couple of lingering questions after reading the thread. Maybe I missed the answers, or misunderstood some advice.
1) If I want to bottle the cider I make, how can I get it to carbonate if I cold crash it?
2) What specific function does the K-meta serve in the cider process?

I'm imagining my process will be something like this:
Buy Cider, pour some off of the top.
Add yeast and nutrient.
Ferment at ~70 deg for 6-8 days.
Rack, ferment a few more days. ????
Cold crash, for 2 days.
Bottle.
Let bottles sit for about a week at Room Temp.
Refridgerate and drink at me leisure.

Cold crashing will only slow down yeast, it won't kill it. You can use P.S. and sulfites to halt fermentation (or nearly halt) fermentation. But if you want a sweet & carbonated bottled cider, you need fermentation to get the carbonation, and if you are actively fermenting and there is sugar left over the yeast will eat it up producing more and more CO2 until your bottles explode.

The common solution is to let your cider ferment all the way out like EdWort does (takes at least 6 weeks) then sweeten with whatever you want and sorbate to prevent further fermentation. Then keg and force carbonate, then bottle from the keg. Without the keg you can get carbonated bottles but they won't be as sweet ... or they'll be likely to explode. This is advice from my local cider sage (who has placed in nationals a few times) so she certainly knows what she's doing.

Personally I think there is hope for sweet carbonated cider in champagne bottles, they should withstand enough pressure I think ... but I don't know anyone who has tried this. I'll be trying at least two of these in two months or so when my first 6gal batch comes out of my primary. My SWMBO likes sweet cider (like Woodchuck or Magners both roughly FG 1.020 lots of sugar left over) and as of yet I don't have a keg ... so I may have to get creative, unless I get a keg in the next couple of weeks.

Mpschafe – Cheers! – If you like the Notty and want a little change of pace when those are gone, try the S04 and US05.

Methane – I’d advise trading your champagne yeast for some ale yeast. Champagne yeast ferments fast and dry. Ale yeast is a lot easier to control for final sweetness. The above three are my current favorites, but any will do. If you cold crash, it wont bottle carbonate. You have to drink it still. Or get a keg. I personally prefer it sweet and still over dry and carbonated, but that’s a matter of taste. K-meta is used to kill wild yeast and to prevent oxidation during long term storage. Since you are using pasteurized juice you don’t need it unless you want to age it a long time. I recommend skipping the k-meta, drink it all up in the next few months and get yourself some good fresh juice in the Fall.

Opzo – I mostly agree with you, except that cold crashing will also cause most ale yeasts to flocculate. So if you are careful, you can rack and leave the yeast behind, without the need for any chemicals. I have been doing this for years with no problems. I’ve done hundreds of bottles this way and the only time I ever had one break was with a wild yeast batch that I crashed at 1.020 and tried to save over the summer. So yes, there are some limits, but not difficult ones.

I’d be careful about intentionally letting a sweet cider bottle ferment though. If a champagne bottle blows it will really make a mess because the pressure is a lot higher. I used to help my Dad make wine when I was a kid and when one of those suckers blew it took out half a dozen bottles next to it and covered the whole cellar. I’m not saying it cant be done, but be careful. Once you start kegging, you wont want to go back.

I’m curious if anyone on this board has ever actually tried to cold crash cider with an ale yeast at 1.012 or lower and had a bottle crack? I don’t get it – I’ve been doing it for years with no problems. I realize that it takes a bit of care, but I don’t understand why folks seem to think this is so hard?

Well, I was given a keg a while ago, but I haven't gone and gotten the valves and tanks that I need. So maybe this is a good excuse to drop some money on that. But I will try, for now, making some flat sweet cider with what I described. At least I can check the taste.

I'll post my results, but I'm sure they won't be anything as interesting or critical as what is already here. Still, more data points are always better...
I will try the recommended yeast next time. And I'll let you know how the yeast nutrient works out.

Thanks!

CvilleKevin - thanks for the input. As far as I understand the risk of bottle bombs increases when you are bottle carbing, if you are using a keg to force carb the presence of CO2 and lack of O2 in the bottle should cease fermentation and keep your risk of bursting to a minimum, regardless of what FG you have ... right? This is what I hope to do, since SWMBO likes it sweet and fizzy.

Do you often fill bottles from keg (via counter pressure filler or something else) or do you just drink for a keg tap?

Opzo – I’ve never tried to bottle carb cider. I’ve always used kegs for carbing. Bottle carbing is a lot more work. You either have to let it go all the way dry, and then add just enough sugar to give you the CO2 pressure that you want, or there are some expensive techniques used by European commercial cider makers, such as bottling the cider sweet and yeasty in champagne bottles, let ferment for a couple weeks, use a centrifuge to spin the yeast into the neck, then freeze the neck to keep the CO2 in the bottle, remove the cap, scrape of the yeast and reseal. That makes sense if you are selling bottles at premium prices, but not so much for drinking with friends (unless SWMBO also likes having a basement full of expensive but very cool looking bottling equipment - in which case that would be the Ultimate Setup).

Theoretically, you might be able to do it by using just enough k-meta and/or sorbate to keep the yeast from reproducing, so that they produce just enough CO2 to carb the bottle before they die. Or if someone comes up with a decent tasting yeast that can only tolerate 7 or 8 percent ABV, then you could bottle right before reaching the terminal ABV, knowing that the yeast will die before converting all the remaining sugar. Maybe someone on this board will invent a novel and reliable way to bottle carb sweet cider that works for home brewers.

Until then, using kegs is much easier. Plus, no bottles to clean. The presence of CO2 and lack of O2 wont be enough to cease fermentation though – you need to make sure that you get the yeast out. I usually let the secondary sit at least a couple of weeks at room temperature after cold crashing to make sure that fermentation doesn’t start back up again, before putting it in a keg for carbonating. The only exception is when it tastes really good and I know I am going to drink it all soon. I cant guarantee that this works for any FG, but it should. I usually crash at an FG of 1.012 or less, which is pretty sweet. The highest I’ve gone is 1.020, for wild yeast and Wyeast 3068. And I did have a bottle of wild yeast, which was crashed at 1.020, crack over last summer, so I sorta view 1.020 as the upper limit – although that was probably more because I didn’t get all of the yeast out, rather than because of the high FG.

I do fill bottles from kegs after they have been carbonated – for friends, family, taking to parties, etc. I thought about getting a counter pressure filler, but it looked like too much trouble, extra cleaning, etc. What I do is drop the pressure in the keg to where it pours without foaming, and just use the regular keg tap to fill the bottles. I use swing top bottles. If the keg is cold, it will help to chill the bottles to prevent foaming. I pour into the side of the bottle so it doesn’t foam, but right when the bottle is almost full, I let the cider fall straight down so that it foams up to the top. Then I snap the swing top on. The foam bubbles are all CO2, so when they dissipate, the head space in the bottle will be all CO2. Once I’ve filled as many bottles as I need, I re-pressurize the keg.

This technique keeps the bottles sparkling for at least six months. I cant say if it would last longer, because so far I’ve never saved any longer than that. Last year was the first time I’ve saved cider for any length of time and it was all still bottles from single gallon batches. This year I have saved a bunch of liters from carbonated batches and I’ll try to save some of them until next season to see how they hold up.

CvilleKevin ... I now dub thee my "King of Sweet Cider"

Hey Opzo – thanks for the moniker, but I’m not sure I can live up to it. The real sweet cider monarchy is in France, Spain, Britain and Germany – where they make The Chronic (cider that is). They would either ridicule me or maybe chop my head off for using Staymans and Ale yeast. In the US of A, cidering seems to be more of a loosely organized anarchy which is cool with me. I think the Appalachian foothills could be the Napa valley of apples though.

BTW - Thanks to everyone who has posted their results in the HBT forums – in this post and hundreds others. I started reading HBT less than two years ago to get some new ideas for recipes and found a ton of useful info. My process has improved by an order of magnitude in the past two seasons, mostly from ideas that I got from this site (such as trying Wyeast 3068, which my girlfriend loves – success!) The search function is especially helpful. I was originally just planning to experiment with recipes for one season and then go back to making keg batches, but I keep reading about stuff that I want to try (using malt instead of organic sugar sounds promising and there are at least a dozen yeasts I still want to check out), so I’ll probably be tinkering for at least another season or two.

I’m planning on doing a couple of tastings at my place in June and if any of you are close to Charlottesville Virginia and want to participate, PM me. I havent set dates yet - probably be on a Wednesday eve in the second half of the month, with Friday or Sunday as possibilities if I cant find a good Wednesday. It will be about 30 people, and the more with brewing experience, the better.

The first tasting is to check out 16 single gallon batches that are all variations of the same recipe, to test the effects of k-meta and k-sorbate at different points in the process, with and without cold crashing. All were done using the same juice which was pressed on Oct 30th, 2008 and is a mix of Staymans and Winesaps, unpasteurized, with an unsweetened sg of 1.050 and pH of 3.7. All of them had 3oz of organic cane sugar and 1.5oz of corn sugar to bump the sg to 1.060 and S04 yeast. I tried to stop them all at 1.006, but I wasn’t able to check them every night so one finished at 1.008 and a few went to 1.004 and 1.002. The 16 batches differ as follows:

1. No k-meta added before or after fermentation - cold crash
2. No k-meta before fermentation, ½ dose afterwards - cold crash
3. No k-meta before fermentation, 1/3 dose afterwards - cold crash
4. No k-meta before fermentation, regular dose afterwards - cold crash
5. 1/3 dose k-meta before fermentation, none afterwards - cold crash
6. 1/3 dose k-meta before fermentation, 1/3 afterwards - cold crash
7. ½ dose k-meta before fermentation, none afterwards - cold crash
8. ½ dose k-meta before fermentation, ½ afterwards - cold crash
9. regular dose k-meta before fermentation, none afterwards – cold crash
10. No k-meta before fermentation, 1/3 dose afterwards – sorbate, no cold crash
11. No k-meta before fermentation, ½ dose afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
12. No k-meta before fermentation, regular dose afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
13. 1/3 dose k-meta before fermentation, 1/3 afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
14. 1/3 dose k-meta before fermentation, 2/3 afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
15. ½ dose k-meta before fermentation, ½ afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
16. ½ dose k-meta before fermentation, regular dose afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash


I bottled three liters from each batch and drank the first round at the beginning of the year (see page 7 of this post). I plan to test the next round at the upcoming tasting to see how they have aged, and then drink the last round sometime in the Fall. I’ll post the results, but if you are thinking about using k-meta and/or sorbate and want to check out the results firsthand, let me know.

Well, I made the cider the way I described, basically.
I got some nice organic cider and pitched some champagne yeast in it. As predicted, the yeast worked quite fast. That was actually a problem. The cider was VERY carbonated and it made bottling difficult.
So, anyway, after about 3 days of letting the yeast do it's thing, I cold crashed for about 36 hours. Honestly, I was really that impatient. It came out pretty tasty, if I do say so myself. SWMBO likes it too.
I've now got some S-04 and US-05 yeast now, and I'm looking forward to giving those a try. But I've got a couple of questions after this first experience.
I noticed that the cider didn't clear up much at all, and I think this might be because of my choice of yeast. But I'm wondering if using the slower ale yeast might help this clear up a bit. I remember reading in this thread that the color will definitely change over time.
Also, How long do you usually cold-crash for. 36 hours was brief, but given pasteurized cider, and an ale yeast, how long would you expect cold-crashing to take?

Again, thanks for all of the great information. I'm looking forward to learning a lot more.

-Brad

Hey Brad - congrats! good to hear that everything is working out.

Pasteurized juice takes much longer to clear. The pasteurization process sets the pectin. Some folks use a clarifier, but I prefer to just drink the cider cloudy if that's the way it comes out. It doesnt affect the taste at all - think of it like a hefe beer.

I've found that adding honey instead of sugar also helps it clear faster. Unpasteurized will clear faster, but not always - it depends on the types of apples.

I cold crash for at least 24 hours. Longer (two or three days) if I can, but often I am trying to stop several carboys at once, and only have room for one at a time in the fridge.

Did you take starting and final SG readings? I would recommend letting the cider sit at room temp for a few days after cold crashing, especially since you crashed after 3 days. My experience that the cold crash will stop just about any yeast if you are doing gallon batches, but I've never used that yeast before. If you've already bottled, I'd keep the bottles chilled until your drink them, just in case.

Hey Kevin et al.,

Great thread! Has anyone reported on using Wyeast 1968 London ESB Ale™ in a cider? Given it's low attenuation and high floccuation, I'm thinking of using this is my next batch and then force carbing. I'm - like everyone else here - looking for that killer combo of a hint of sweetness and some mild carbonation.

Cugel said:

Hey Kevin et al.,

Great thread! Has anyone reported on using Wyeast 1968 London ESB Ale™ in a cider? Given it's low attenuation and high floccuation, I'm thinking of using this is my next batch and then force carbing. I'm - like everyone else here - looking for that killer combo of a hint of sweetness and some mild carbonation.

Click to expand...

Wyeast 1968 is the same thing as WLP002, which is reported on in the original post. I've used the WLP one and I've found nearly no difference between this one and s-04 dry yeast when used in cider. If you want a very interesting english yeast in cider, try the WYeast 1275: Thames valley. this one leaves awesome fruit flavors, and it's becoming my favorite.

CvilleKevin said:

I cold crash for at least 24 hours. Longer (two or three days) if I can, but often I am trying to stop several carboys at once, and only have room for one at a time in the fridge.

Did you take starting and final SG readings? I would recommend letting the cider sit at room temp for a few days after cold crashing, especially since you crashed after 3 days. My experience that the cold crash will stop just about any yeast if you are doing gallon batches, but I've never used that yeast before. If you've already bottled, I'd keep the bottles chilled until your drink them, just in case.

Click to expand...

I just opened the last bottle today and took an SG reading. At the start it was about 1.05 and at the end about 1.01 which seems to put it about 5.25 alcohol. It tasted pretty good, but a colleague noticed a slight taste to it, and I think it might be a little bit of a bread-y/yeast-y taste.

I'm looking forward to the next batch, using some honey and the ale yeast.

I thought that the yeast might start back up if I let the cider get back to room temp after the cold crash. But you're saying that the yeast won't start again, right? I did keep the bottles cold after the cold crash though, and everything worked out just fine.

Brad – cold crashing will remove most types of yeast, especially if you are doing gallon batches. Rack the cider before cold crashing – this will get rid of the trub on the bottom. After 24 hrs (or longer if you have the time) of cold crashing, you will see a fine layer of new deposit on the bottom. This is the yeast (plus other solids that drop during crashing). Racking again into a clean container will leave the yeast behind. Don’t try to get every last drop on the 2nd rack because you don’t want to suck up any sediment, which will contain dormant yeast. After that, you can let the cider go to back up to room temp and it will be stable for storage.

So far, I have found that cold crashing gallon batches will eliminate all the yeasts that I have tried. For keg batches I’ve had trouble with a couple of yeasts (Wyeast 4184 and Saflager S23). I think that’s because the carboy doesn’t cool down as fast as a single gallon, not all of the yeast drops to the bottom and these two yeasts are a little more tenacious than the others. There are probably others as well that don’t flocculate at low temps. If you are using pasteurized juice, its probably a good idea to crash for an extra day or two, to get any yeast which binds to the pectin. That may have been where the yeast taste was coming from. An extra few days will also help it get more clear.

Freezeblade – Thanks for the tip on the WYeast 1275, which I’ve added to the list of ones that I want to experiment with next season (which keeps growing longer). I’m planning to do a couple of gallon batches of each at the beginning of the season, and maybe some keg batches if the first round comes out good. Here’s the list so far. If anyone has any experience with these, I’d be interested in how they came out.

Safbrew T-58
Safale K-97

Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale Yeast.
Wyeast 1098 British Ale Yeast
Wyeast 1272 American Ale Yeast II
WYeast 1275: Thames valley
Wyeast 1332 Northwest Ale Yeast.
Wyeast 1010 American Wheat Yeast.
Wyeast 3056 Bavarian Wheat Yeast.
Wyeast 3333 German Wheat Yeast.
Wyeast 3942 Belgian Wheat Yeast.

WLP001 California Ale Yeast.
WLP005 British Ale Yeast.
WLP023 Burton Ale Yeast
WLP380 Hefeweizen IV Ale Yeast.
WLP028 Edinburgh Scottish Ale.
WLP565 Belgian Saison I Yeast.

Five more kegs …. Just a memory now



Had a party a couple of weeks ago and floated another three kegs (the ones in the buckets). All three were a little drier than I ideally like, but still very nice. From left to right:

Yorks and Fujis, pressed on Jan 5th. SG 1.050 and pH 3.9. No k-meta, S04 ale yeast, with 1 ½ lbs of basswood honey and 1 ½ lbs of clover honey to boost SG to 1.065. Crashed 34 days later, at 1.002, which was a little drier than I wanted to go. It took a while for it to develop a decent body. At four months it was thin tasting, but by 6 months, it was good to go. The basswood honey gives it a nice smoky taste, but can be overpowering, which is why I used half clover on this batch. That seems like the right ratio.

Yorks and Fujis, pressed on Jan 5th. SG 1.050 and pH 3.9. No k-meta. US05 ale yeast with 3lbs of wildflower honey to boost SG to 1.065. Crashed 36 days later at 1.006. It smelled a little sulfury up through about month four, but by six months the sulfur smell was gone. It tasted like a slightly drier version of a Woodchuck Granny Smith and was the first keg to float.

Staymans and Winsaps, pressed on Oct 30th. SG 1.050. pH 3.7. Used half the normal k-meta. Wyeast 4184 with 3oz turbinado, 1 1/2 oz dextrose per gallon to boost SG to 1.060. I crashed it 14 days later at 1.002, at which point it was very tasty with a nice complexity, but the fermentation did not stop. By December it had dropped to 1.000 and was really raw tasting. It was drinkable by March, but took until June to get really good. Not as sweet as the other two, but a more interesting taste. My wine drinking friends liked this one a lot, although it was the last keg to float. Next season I am planning to use the 4184 again and not bother trying to cold crash it – just let it go dry and see if it shapes up by the following summer.

The two kegs at the end of the bar are the ones that I miss the most. They were both from the York and Fuji batch, with no k-meta. I had them on tap in the fridge for a couple of months and finished them up just before the party.

S04 ale yeast, with 3lbs of white sage honey to boost SG to 1.065. Crashed 35 days later at 1.008, at which point it was good to drink, although I waited a couple more months before tapping it. Great smell, taste and body, with just a hint of the honey taste. It was one of the few ale yeast batches of this season that my girlfriend liked.

US05 ale yeast, with 18oz turbinado and 9 oz dextrose, to bump SG to 1.060. Crashed 26 days later at 1.004, at which point it was good to drink, although I waited a couple more months before tapping it. This was one of my favorites. Good body, somewhat of a beery taste. I can see how US05 would go good with some DME. It didn’t clear quite as well from the cold crash as did the cysers though.

That leaves me with just 7 kegs left out of 29 keg batches from last season. And unfortunately, none of them are drinkable now, although I’m hoping they will shape up by the end of the summer.

The carboy on the left back shelf is from the York Fuji batch with S23 lager yeast, and 18oz turbinado and 9 oz dextrose, to bump SG to 1.060. I let this one go a little too far before crashing – all the way down to 1.000, which is too dry for my taste, but it has a good fruit finish and decent complexity. Its still really raw tasting, more than six months later, but the finish gives me hope that this will come around.

The carboy on the right is also from the York Fuji batch with wild yeast, no extra sugar. Crashed at 1.004. I let this one go too far also. Six months later, it’s really sour and lacking in body. Its not as funky tasting as some of the wild yeast batches I’ve done, so I’m still hoping that it will come around.

The five batches in kegs are all from Jonathan apples, with the normal dose of k-meta. Three have sugar and Nottingham, S04 and US05 yeast. Two with clover honey and Nottingham and S04 yeast. I let them all dry completely out, which so far is looking like a bad idea. They are all very bitter tasting. The Jonathans are pretty tart to begin with, so probably wasn’t a very good juice choice for letting go all the way dry. Also, I used a full dose of k-meta on these, which probably doesn’t help things much. The only thing that is giving me hope is that last year I let a couple of keg batches get too dry and they tasted a lot like these. It took them until August to get drinkable, but they did finally shape up and taste pretty good.

Fortunately I saved about 90 liters, mostly from various experimental batches, plus a couple liters from each of the keg batches. So I’m not completely dry. My plan was to drink these all at tastings to see how the various recipes hold up over time. Although if one of these keg batches doesn’t shape up quick, I might have to break into my tasting stash.

Last Friday, some friends came over and we checked out 16 batches of cider, with varying amounts of k-meta before and after fermentation, also comparing cold crashing vs. sorbate. The batches were all from the same juice, pressed on Oct 30th and bottled in late November. (see page 11 for details). They have been aging a little over six months now, stored in the basement at room temperature.

They were all bottled still. A couple of the cold crashed bottles made a slight puff when opened, but they were all essentially flat - I could discern no carbonation over the past six months (I wasn’t expecting any carbonation, since I cold crashed or sorbated all of them)

A dozen folks were good enough to fill out rating sheets. The results were interesting. There was a lot more variability in scores than I expected.

The biggest variability was whether people liked the sorbate or not. The batches that were stopped with sorbate still have a very prominent sorbate taste that is easily discernable six months after bottling. It tastes to me something like vanilla and cinnamon – something like you might taste in a spiced rum. Some people liked it, some hated it and some were ambivalent.

Most everyone agreed that two of the sorbated batches were particularly bad – they had a geranium smell which I’m pretty sure came from not adding enough k-meta at the end before the sorbate. These were the two that had no k-meta before fermentation and only 1/3 or ½ of the recommended k-meta dose at the end, before adding the sorbate. The sorbated batch that got the best average score had no k-meta added before fermentation and the full recommended dose at the end, before adding the sorbate.

I really wanted to like the sorbated batches, because it’s a lot easier than cold crashing, but the taste just wasn’t working for me. I was hoping it would get better over time, but that doesn’t seem to be the case so far. On the plus side, the sorbated bottles were brilliantly clear, and there were quite a few people who either liked or were OK with the taste.

The two batches with the best average scores were both cold crashed with a half dose of k-meta and no sorbate. The highest scoring had ½ dose of k-meta added before fermentation, none at the end. The second had no k-meta added before fermentation and ½ dose at the end.

Personally, I still prefer the taste of either no k-meta at all or else adding a small amount at the end and none in the beginning before fermentation.

I still have one bottle left of each of these batches. I’ll give them another six months and see how they compare after a full year of aging.

Not to get all fancy, but I was thinking that when I do my next batch, I'd bump up the IG with some pure maple sugar. But I haven't found anywhere that gives a good guide on the pts. lb/gal on various types of syrup. Has anyone tried this? I'm curious what kind of flavor/ how much flavor could be imparted in the cider.

This post has some interesting info on using maple syrup. No word yet on how it came out
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/how-much-maple-syrup-97274/

Kevin, we'll try to make it tomorrow. It's officially our due date, but I don't think the boy has any plans to join us just yet. I might have a Wine Guild board meeting, but I'd still really like to stop by and check out the new lineup.

Nice thread. I've tried cider a couple of times, unsuccessfully. Always came out too dry. I think I can now pick through your results and find something that will work for my tastes.