BIAB or Partial Mash

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timcadieux

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I wasn't sure if this belonged in the Partial Mash section, please feel free to move it if necessary.

Um, so I've been looking at both these methods, (I've not done an AG yet). As far as i can tell, the only real difference (minus the bag) as that the BIAG is 100% grain whereas the Partial uses some Extract.

My current setup consists of a 15L (4G) brew pot. I'm wondering if that's big enough to use either of these methods. I'm kind of leaning towards the BIAB, since it seems to me to be closer to the AG procedure.

I'm assuming I could brew up a 3G batch using BIAB and then top up with water, similar to an extract?
 
I was in the same boat and thought that I would be going to partial mash but when I realized what little extra equipment I needed for biab I decided to go for it. I've only done two batches and they've both been smaller cause I've been doing it on the stovetop but once it gets warmer I'll be doing my full batches outside. I say go for it, its not very difficult and with the two batches that I've made I can definitely taste the difference. Good luck.
 
Do you think that a 4G pot is big enough? Most entries i've read about seem to indicate 10 or 15g brew pots
 
You might be able to get away with 2.5 gal with your pot depending on your boiloff rate and the OG of the beer. Sparging of some kind will probably be required just to allow for enough water with the grain.
 
You can do a 2 1/2 gallon batch in the 4 gallon pot but you'll have to watch very closely as you approach the boil as the hot break is likely to spill over. Turning down the heat so it doesn't come to a boil so quickly. stirring with a big spoon, and/or using a spray bottle of water to cut down on the hot break will help. You'll also have to do a pseudo sparge because there won't be enough room in that 4 gallon pot for the 3 1/2 gallons of water plus the grains. I use a 5 gallon pot and have to watch for the hot break as it climbs dangerously close to the top for a minute or 2 before falling back. Don't add the hops until the hot break falls or you will overflow.
 
Hmm, so there's no easy way to do a typical 5G brew using BIAB method and only a 4G brew pot? If I understand your asnwers correctly, my solution is to produce smaller batches? Or am I way off?
 
I use a 20QT (5 gallon) SS BK/MT. I do,...wait for it...BIAB partial boil partial mash. Try saying that drunk. I mash 5lbs of grains in 2 gallons of spring water in my 5G kettle. Put the bag in the water,me in the water,shark's in the wat...oops,my bad. Then crushed grains in the water & stir to break up dough balls & wet them evenly.I start doing this when the mash water temp's about 150F. By 152,it gets off the heat after the stirring & wrapped up in my thinsulate lined winter hunting coat. It actually raises the temp 1 degree,rather than slowly changing by 5-12 degrees on the stove. I sparge with 1.5 gallons 165F water for a total of 3.5 gallons for the boil. 5 gallons total in fermenter.
Tim,you could do 3 gallons in that 4 gallon kettle for a 5 gallon batch. You just sparge with 1 gallon instead of 1.5 gallons. A 5 gallon 20 QT SS kettle would be better for partial boils to have a bit more head room.
By the way,the spent grains can be dried in a 170F (warm oven setting) in about 7 hours,turning once at 4 hours. Then cool & store in dry place.
 
4G isn't ideal but you can work with it as long as you're ok doing smaller batches (or low OG brews). The reason some people like big brew pots for BIAB is they do full volume mashes, so essentially once you pull the grain bag out you've got the full pre-boil volume you want and can go from there without messing with a sparge or top-up. It simplifies the process and some claim it bumps their efficiency, but there's no reason you can't do a smaller volume mash (like a 'traditional all-grain' 1.25-1.5qts of water per lb of grain) and then add more water in either a sparge step and/or a top-up.
 
Ok, what i understood about the differences from BIAB to Partial Mash was that BIAB needs the entire volume of water to be boiled, while the Partial Mash uses a partial volume and then gets topped up (sugar wise) with DME/LME which allows me to then top up with water to hit either 19L or 23L.

If I understand correctly, I can do say a 2.5 or 3g BIAB, then sparge with the remaining needed volume. At this point I would presumably have two brew pots, one with the boiled wort and the second with wort from the Sparging? I could then just add each to my fermenter and top Up if necessary?
 
No,almost though. While kettle one (!) is wrapped up mashing,kettle two is heating sparge water to 165F. You can mash 5lb of grain in 2G of water,sparging with 1G. That'll give 3 gallons of wort in a 4 gallon kettle. Very simple,so don't read too much into it. BIAB doesn't "have" to be full volume boil. It can be a partial boil as well. That's what I've been repeating here. Partial boil-partial mash & BIAB on top of all that. So I'm saying BIAB can be done whether all grain or partial mash. It just doesn't matter.
 
Ok, what i understood about the differences from BIAB to Partial Mash was that BIAB needs the entire volume of water to be boiled, while the Partial Mash uses a partial volume and then gets topped up (sugar wise) with DME/LME which allows me to then top up with water to hit either 19L or 23L.

If I understand correctly, I can do say a 2.5 or 3g BIAB, then sparge with the remaining needed volume. At this point I would presumably have two brew pots, one with the boiled wort and the second with wort from the Sparging? I could then just add each to my fermenter and top Up if necessary?

You can do BIAB as either partial mash or AG. You seem to be confusing partial boil with partial mash. You can do partial (or full) boils for either partial mash or AG (and you can do both using the BIAB method). I would suggest a larger kettle for BIAB AG, so you can mash everything. But you can still do a partial boil doing AG; boil what you can and top up in the fermenter.
 
Ok, so assuming I did as you suggested, 3g of wort in a 4g pot, I would then top up with 2g of cold water to achieve a 5g brew?
 
For full volume biab you usually need a pot 2x the size of the batch for just regular beers. You can always do a dunk sparge in another bucket or small pot though and get similar results. For instance if you are going to mash at 2.7 qt/lb, mash at 2 qt and the other .7 have it in another pot around 175-185 or so because it will cool down hopefully to around 168. That just goes for the mashing part, boiling a 5 gallon batch you need a minimum 5 gallon + boil off rate to be able to do full boils. In your current situation I would do like union is saying and do biab partial mash. Mash as much grain as you can maybe 3-5 lbs and do the rest with dme.
 
Ok, thx for clearing this up of me folkz.

Now I'm wondering, what Recipe 'Types' should I be looking at, AG? That would be expecting a full grain bill, yes ? (did I just use that term correctly)?
 
Ok, thx for clearing this up of me folkz.

Now I'm wondering, what Recipe 'Types' should I be looking at, AG? That would be expecting a full grain bill, yes ? (did I just use that term correctly)?

Yes, all grain means no extract, all the fermentables come from the mash. Partial mash would be mashing some of the base malt with specialty grains and making up the rest of the fermentables with extract. Keep in mind that with a 4 gal pot for a mash tun, you'll be looking at only being able to mash about 9-10 lbs of grain, so if a recipe calls for more than that, you'll want to do a partial mash; mash what you can handle in the pot, and use DME (or LME) for the rest.

If you haven't already, check out these threads by Deathbrewer. Basically how a lot of us got into mashing. Makes is a very easy addition to your brew day.

Easy Stovetop partial mash - BIAB
Easy Stovetop All Grain - BIAB
 
Ok, thx for clearing this up of me folkz.

Now I'm wondering, what Recipe 'Types' should I be looking at, AG? That would be expecting a full grain bill, yes ? (did I just use that term correctly)?

Well, to make it even more muddled (!) you can do any recipe type. We'd just help you change it to work with your system.

It's probably easiest to start with AG recipes to work with, but keep in mind that you can still use any recipe you want!
 
Yes, his first thread on Partial Mash - BIAB is what got me into this line of questioning.

So, if I understand, I could look at either Partial Mash recipes or AG recipes that use a Total of less than 10# of grain. Anything above the 10#, i would have to somehow replace using an equivalent extract?
 
Yes, his first thread on Partial Mash - BIAB is what got me into this line of questioning.

So, if I understand, I could look at either Partial Mash recipes or AG recipes that use a Total of less than 10# of grain. Anything above the 10#, i would have to somehow replace using an equivalent extract?

That's about the gist of it. You may find that your pot holds a bit more or less than 10#, but I know 12-13 was about the limit for my 5 gal kettle. And then yeah, make up the rest (if any) with extract. Keep in mind that 1# of base malt = .75# LME = .66# DME (or so, but a good ratio to keep in mind when converting).
 
ok, that seems reasonable. If I were to use the two SMaSH (just for ease of comparison) recipes

Theoretically, i could do this entire Recipe in a Bag

9 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
0.2 oz Saaz [4.0%] - First Wort
1.0 oz Saaz [4.0%] - Boil 60 min
0.5 oz Saaz [4.0%] - Boil 10 min
1 pkgs Belgian Ardennes (Wyeast Labs #3522)

Theoretically, this would require that I reduce the Palt Malt to say 9# and then convert the missing 4# to DME or LME?
13 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
2.0 oz Acid Malt (3.0 SRM)
0.4 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.0%] - Boil 60 min
0.6 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.0%] - Boil 15 min
1 pkgs Belgian Schelde Ale Yeast (Wyeast #3655-PC)
 
ok, that seems reasonable. If I were to use the two SMaSH (just for ease of comparison) recipes

Theoretically, i could do this entire Recipe in a Bag

9 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
0.2 oz Saaz [4.0%] - First Wort
1.0 oz Saaz [4.0%] - Boil 60 min
0.5 oz Saaz [4.0%] - Boil 10 min
1 pkgs Belgian Ardennes (Wyeast Labs #3522)

Theoretically, this would require that I reduce the Palt Malt to say 9# and then convert the missing 4# to DME or LME?
13 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
2.0 oz Acid Malt (3.0 SRM)
0.4 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.0%] - Boil 60 min
0.6 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.0%] - Boil 15 min
1 pkgs Belgian Schelde Ale Yeast (Wyeast #3655-PC)

You got it! Keep the specialty grains the same, and figure out how much extract to use to make up the base malt. I like to go light/extra light/golden when replacing 2-row/pale malt. There's specially extracts like Munich, Vienna and rye for replacing those types of base malt.
 
Ok, that seems awfully easy...

So, essentially, any Partial Mash Recipe, or AG can be done this way with some fiddling to the Base malt. That makes perfect sense.

Is there an app that can do these substitutions for me, like BeerSmith, etc.?

I seem to always go over to the Dark Side first, then have to be convinced to come into the Light <sigh>.

Thx for your patience folkz.
 
BeerSmith2 is awesome, I highly recommend that one. Some form of software or online calc is really useful once you start mashing, helps with volumes and temps and it'll really help with converting recipes too. I'd go BS2, but there's also the BrewPal app for smartphones, which is really nice for an app (couple bucks) and there are some solid free online calcs too.
 
I'm perfectly fine purchasing an app if it works well. I'll look at Beersmith, thx.
 
Beersmith2 can also account for late extract additions,partial boils,partial mash,water profiles...sheez. So many settings,equipment & otherwise,that you can indevidualize it with. Not real hard,but def a bit involve.
I can even play around with colors & such with the brewin a glass pic to the right of the recipe box. I also like being able to add to the lists of grains,extracts,sugars,hops with ones I use that aren't on the lists. Cool.
And BS2 does have a button at the top of the screen to scale recipe or convert. Very handy.
 
Beersmith2 can also account for late extract additions,partial boils,partial mash,water profiles...sheez. So many settings,equipment & otherwise,that you can indevidualize it with. Not real hard,but def a bit involve.
I can even play around with colors & such with the brewin a glass pic to the right of the recipe box. I also like being able to add to the lists of grains,extracts,sugars,hops with ones I use that aren't on the lists. Cool.
And BS2 does have a button at the top of the screen to scale recipe or convert. Very handy.

There's really no limit on what it can do, it's awesome stuff. All the ingredient and recipe add ons when you license it are awesome, and if you know the numbers for a grain/extract/hop/adjunct/yeast or whatever, you can add it yourself. I recently added Hop Shot CO2 extract to mine, along with a few yeasts I've been using that aren't in the database. Oh, and the Cloud feature is really handy for sharing recipes and equipment profiles. Cool $hit for sure.
 
Umm, I was just sending a resume of this conversation to a friend and something occurred to me. If I have a 4G pot which is fairly full at the end of the boil, will I still have enough room to add the DME/LME in order to dissolve it or will i need to move a small volume to another pot, just for this step, then mix both into my fermenter?
 
Put the bag in the water,me in the water,shark's in the wat...oops,my bad.

You're gonna need a bigger pot!

Sorry couldn't resist Jaws is my all time favorite movie!

Now back to topic. Unionrdr and I brew similar, I mash 5-7 lbs if grains in a 5 gallon BK BIAB style. Then at flame out add a few lbs of DME or so to get where I need with top off depending on what I'm brewing.
 
Question from my buddy.. if we have boiled say 15L, then we ought to be able to just top up with an additional 4L and the OG should be correct due to the LME or DME substitution?
 
Question from my buddy.. if we have boiled say 15L, then we ought to be able to just top up with an additional 4L and the OG should be correct due to the LME or DME substitution?

Yes and no. The extract will lend a specific number of gravity points, but the gravity of the grain wort will be dependent on the "mash efficiency". You'll learn what type of efficiency you'll get from your setup as you do more AG/PM batches. Most recipes are designed for ~60-70% mash eff., unless stated otherwise. I found that I got ~75-80% mash eff. doing BIAB with a fine crush of the grains (~.40 on the mill) and a setup very similar to yours (5gal kettle, paint strainer bag). In turn, extract yields ~100% eff. Your software will help you a TON with calculating the combination if doing PM and the mash eff. if doing AG, so you have an idea of what to expect in future batches. YMMV, and that's why it's a yes and no answer.
 
NordeastBrewer77 said:
There's really no limit on what it can do, it's awesome stuff. All the ingredient and recipe add ons when you license it are awesome, and if you know the numbers for a grain/extract/hop/adjunct/yeast or whatever, you can add it yourself. I recently added Hop Shot CO2 extract to mine, along with a few yeasts I've been using that aren't in the database. Oh, and the Cloud feature is really handy for sharing recipes and equipment profiles. Cool $hit for sure.

Off topic a bit but I'm intrigued by your description of BeerSmith2. I recently got BeerAlchemy and am a bit disappointed. Is BS2 for Mac? Does it estimate mash pH based on water profile/salt additions and grain bill? BA does not, and there's NO manual, on line or otherwise. BS2 have at least a PDF instruction sheet? Does it sync between a phone and Mac?
Is it a portable shower or a monkey cage???
(Jaws again...)
 
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