BIAB Basket sits too high... how to retain heat?

Hey guys,
So my thread name describes my problem. I made a custom kettle with a Bayou Classic 20.5 gallon kettle, installed a ball valve and sight glass (electric element to come), and have put feet on the basket to give it clearance. The problem I have is the basket now sits above the top of the kettle, which now is giving me a problem of keeping the heat enclosed during the mash. I have a temporary fix of wrapping the space between the lid and the top of the kettle with tinfoil and then wrapping a fleece blanket around that, but I am looking for a permanent fix. I am open to any and all solutions. I can't not use the basket as 1) I will have an element in there soon so I can't have the voile bag with a 25lb grain bill sitting directly on the element and 2) I paid $$ for the basket, so I need to use it! Thanks in advance for any suggestions. I don't have pictures currently, but if I need them to explain it better please let me know.

Cheers,
Chris

Sell the basket on eBay.

wilserbrewer said:

Sell the basket on eBay.

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And how to resolve the issue of the 25+ lb grain bag on top of the element?

How many inches of clearance do you have between the bottom of the basket and the bottom of the kettle?

I think the kettle and the basket must have several inches of clearance new. Am I right? DO you have any pictures?

Chris7687 said:

And how to resolve the issue of the 25+ lb grain bag on top of the element?

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The grain and bag flow around the element and do not sit or push down on the element. More like a fluid. The bag should be oversized to allow this. It is not like 25 lbs sitting on the element at all, the grain and water combine to make a slurry that flows where it wants...not like a solid that sits heavy on the element. Also the grain has bouyancy...and weighs very little while submerged due to the water it has displaced...cheers!

I have seen some elements with shields around them, either solid or punched full of holes. The elements were straight.

Stainless Steel Stock Pot: 18.75 D x 17 H
Stainless: 0.8 mm / 20 Gauge
Full Size Perforated Boiling Basket
Vented Lid
Perforated stainless steel basket – 17.5 D x 13.25 H
Basket stainless steel – 0.6 mm / 22 gauge
There should be more then enough room. 17 inches hight minus 13.25 is less tehn 4 inches and should be more then enough room for your attachments. Maybe take off the feet and everything should fit swimmingly.

Hey guys,
Here are some pictures.

I would say that the feet for the basket are too long for the kettle. How long are the feet? Can we see a picture of the feet with the tape measure?

I will put a picture of the feet up tonight. After re-reading wislerbrewer, the grain bouancy makes sense, but still would require some type of shielding from the bag as I am going to leave the element on during mashing with a recirculating pump to properly distribute the mash temp among the grain bed.

If you are recirculating and firing the element (say using a PID) to maintain temps then why are you worried about retaining heat? Your PID and Element will keep the heat where it needs to be.

wyzazz said:

If you are recirculating and firing the element (say using a PID) to maintain temps then why are you worried about retaining heat? Your PID and Element will keep the heat where it needs to be.

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Don't want the heat escaping to fast, which would force the element to keep kicking and and off. Feel like that is just going to cause something to fail with the repeatative on/off.

Chris7687 said:

Don't want the heat escaping to fast, which would force the element to keep kicking and and off. Feel like that is just going to cause something to fail with the repeatative on/off.

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If that was the case (An SSR Failing due to rapid on/off switching) then setting my Auber PID to 70% when I boil would be burning up SSR's and Elements. That however, is not the case.

The overall efficiency (not brewhouse/mashing efficiency) of how much heat/power your system uses may be better if you eliminiate that gap somehow, but it is by no means a showstopper. JMO

My guess is that even without the feet, the basket sitting on the element won't let you put the lid on there. Otherwise, your feet have way too much clearance, and you can cut them down/off. Given your requirements, why don't you get a shorter basket, or shorten the one you have by a couple inches?


That said, I totally agree that you are way over-thinking this issue with the element cycling on/off too much.

Either get some sheet metal and make a collar for the pot or trim down the basket by about an inch.

This pot should have 3.75 inches of clearance from the basket to the kettle. This is more than enough to install an element, sight, and ball-valve. Having said that, I think the problem lies in the basket sitting on one of these items due to pour installation, or that the custom made feet are too long for the pot. Having custom made feet is an easy fix, a misplaced element or valve is not. From the picture it looks like there should be enough clearance, but without a close up its hard to tell.

Looks like I will just try and chop a few inches off the top of the basket.

johns- there is no clearance from basket to kettle. This is a 82 quart Bayou Classic Kettle and a boil basket, I do have a 44 quart Bayou Classic kettle as well which has a steam basket that has the gap between bottom of kettle and basket.

cris
I would not cut off the top of the basket, because it may become week and could break after some time. Just curious, is this one you bought? Because it does not look like it. In the reviews, one person wrote, "The stockpot measures 13-½ by 17-¼ inches tall.
Steam and Boil Basket measures 12-¼ by 12-¼ tall and sits 3 inches off the bottom of the pot.". 3 inches should be enough for the heat stick, and ball valve.

://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FTYKGQ/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00

Johns - sorry, not to sound like a prick but you seem to be insulting my intelligence. If the stock pot had the 3 inch gap at the bottom I would have not started a thread to trouble shoot this problem. The measurements you have provided, which you received from the first customer review from Amazon, are not for the 82 quart kettle. The 82 qt kettle measurements are 19.75" wide x 17.5" tall. The basket is 18.5" wide x 15.75" tall. Giving me roughly 1.75" of clearance, which really isn't the case. With the legs removed from the basket and it sitting flush on the ball valve, which is as low as it could possibly be installed, there is still about .75" that is sticking up. I really don't want to cut the basket, but don't have any other options at this point. Don't know anyone that can weld a SS collar for me.

Sorry Chris, I did not mean to be insulting, I was just interested in your predicament simply because I was thinking about buying one for myself. The confusion (for me) stems from Bayou Classic and understanding that their pots are not engineered the same for all their pots. All Bayou Classic steamers and pots are NOT the same. I just didn’t understand this at first.

I have also posted a new thread which deals with this question indirectly, because I would like to know which (80 quart or larger), pot is the best for this.

To my way of thinking Bayou should sell their pots with this type of steamer insert http://bayouclassicdepot.com/1982-bayou-classic-steamer-basket.htm, instead of having boiler or steamer baskets that sit flush with the bottom of the pot.

I will continue to watch this, and my other thread to see what ideas come from it, but now I am thinking about one of two options, and they are http://www.kitchenfantasy.com/shopping_cart/stockpots.html, (75 quart), because I like the heavier gage. It’s a bit pricier, but for this reason and the fact that it comes with a steamer insert, similar to a false bottom, it could be a good buy for me. The downside is price, and its not the volume I am looking for in a big pot with a steamer,

Another alternative would be to just go ahead and buy the 65 quart Bayou stockpot with the basket for about 150. The bad thing about this is that I would not be able to make bigger beers in 10 gallon batches. Maybe, I will have to be satisfied in this until I move up to the next step in a 3V system for making the bigger beers. I know understand that the 65 quart Bayou has a lip that holds the basket above the bottom of the kettle which if going electric (for me) is nice because I would have enough room for the heat stick. The downside is volume.

Well your basket does not meet your requirements, sounds to me like you need to replace it with a smaller one, or cut it to fit. Easiest solution is to sell it and buy another one, hopefully without spending too much dough.

How about instead of modifying the basket or the pot, why not put some kind of insulating skirt that fits on the lid?

johns said:

Sorry Chris, I did not mean to be insulting, I was just interested in your predicament simply because I was thinking about buying one for myself. The confusion (for me) stems from Bayou Classic and understanding that their pots are not engineered the same for all their pots. All Bayou Classic steamers and pots are NOT the same. I just didn’t understand this at first.

I have also posted a new thread which deals with this question indirectly, because I would like to know which (80 quart or larger), pot is the best for this.

To my way of thinking Bayou should sell their pots with this type of steamer insert http://bayouclassicdepot.com/1982-bayou-classic-steamer-basket.htm, instead of having boiler or steamer baskets that sit flush with the bottom of the pot.

I will continue to watch this, and my other thread to see what ideas come from it, but now I am thinking about one of two options, and they are http://www.kitchenfantasy.com/shopping_cart/stockpots.html, (75 quart), because I like the heavier gage. It’s a bit pricier, but for this reason and the fact that it comes with a steamer insert, similar to a false bottom, it could be a good buy for me. The downside is price, and its not the volume I am looking for in a big pot with a steamer,

Another alternative would be to just go ahead and buy the 65 quart Bayou stockpot with the basket for about 150. The bad thing about this is that I would not be able to make bigger beers in 10 gallon batches. Maybe, I will have to be satisfied in this until I move up to the next step in a 3V system for making the bigger beers. I know understand that the 65 quart Bayou has a lip that holds the basket above the bottom of the kettle which if going electric (for me) is nice because I would have enough room for the heat stick. The downside is volume.

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Johns- ya all their baskets are not the same designs, which seriously sucks. I love my 44qt design with the lip to hold the basket and the gap at the bottom. Search my previous threads on trying to help in determining a basket, I had one that was specifically on Bayou kettles. I solely BIAB right now, but intend one day to switch to 3V. I believe the Bayou kettles were the best route, especially after being an already existing customer. The heavy gauges nice and all, but really see no purpose other than a bigger price tag. I say this for two reasons: 1) if you're using electric, you don't need to be worried about scorching due to thin metal and 2) I'm not the gentlest person in the world and have bumped my kettle into things and never had any dents. Unless you're a semi-pro wrestler using it as a prop, there is no excuse that your brewing rig will ever become damage/dented.

Wilser - was originally thinking of an idea like weirdboy suggested.

Weirdboy - have any ideas on food grade insulating material? Was thinking of insulating material as a sleeve and then magnets sewed into it to hold the skirt to the lid

Well you said you're using aluminum foil now, right? So maybe just a sturdier version of that. Not with foil, but with aluminum sheets that are a bit thicker. Or, if you want to go nuts you could do something in stainless steel. If you want it actually insulated you could do a double-walled design, but to be honest the rest of your system isn't any better insulated than a thin sheet of metal anyway.

Sell the basket on ebay and use the $ on something else. All you need is a proper fitting bag. If you are electric, recirculate until you get to your strike temp, drop in the bag of grains, then set the pid on manual at 5%. Stir with a mash paddle every 15 to 20 minutes and call it good. You do NOT need to recirculate during the mash, just stir a few times during the mash. KISS!!!!!

The only time I had an issue is during a recirculation that had created an air pocket around the element/below the grain bed. This is why I have stopped using the pump during the mash. I don't use anything to keep the bag off the element at this point.

We tend to make things more complicated than it needs to be!

Or,,,,,,or, you can take small nuts, bolts, and washers, and attach them to a pizzia screen. Pizzia screens are avialable on Amazon and are super cheap. The come in a various of sizes. The largest one is 20 inches. All that needs to be done is attach those bolts, nuts, and washers to the bottom of the pizzia screen to achieve the proper hieght.

I wish I would have thought of this earlier.

Have you tried getting a measurement of the feet on the Bayou Classic false bottom that comes with the BC Brew Kettles? I would bet that if you could resize your basket feet to the size of the false bottom you would be all good. I really like the BC pots. The .8 steel as well as the setup they offer for their brew kettle line seems perfect for apartment stove top BIAB. The 8 gallon brew kettle in particular.

Problems aside, your pot looks sweet. Nice job!

lonetexan said:

We tend to make things more complicated than it needs to be!

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Winner, winner!

Just throwing this out there, my bag and grains just drape over the element. I use a 5500W ULWD element, a PID w/auto-tune and full time recirc. I've never scorched grain or messed up my bag.

WastedCider, Bayou makes some good stuff and I guess they now make a false bottom with a handle that had a kind of hinge. It’s like the handle on baskets. Unfortunately they only make it for the 62 quart size. BC also makes baskets with feet on them, but again not for the 82 quart size.

Mr., Wildcat, I imagine that having a false bottom or a basket in your brew pot is only for peace of mind. I have also heard that putting a bag on, over, or near to the element, will not have negative consequences. I think that it’s only for the peace of mind. It would also depend on your personal brewing style. If a system is not fully automated, then it would be alright to have the bag sit on the element for sometime while a person sits there and monitor the batch. On the other hand if you’re using a herms system, with tempeture controlled PIDs on a control box, it might be advisable to use a basket or a false bottom. In which case having the bag sit on the heat stick might not be desirable.

It’s just my idea, I would rather be safe than sorry. I have never used a bag over the element method to brew, so I have no experience with this.

wilserbrewer said:

Well your basket does not meet your requirements, sounds to me like you need to replace it with a smaller one, or cut it to fit. Easiest solution is to sell it and buy another one, hopefully without spending too much dough.

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I think what wilser means to say is that you should ditch the basket and get a custom tailored BIAB bag

(I have ordered from him, have a friend that was so impressed with by bag that he ordered one for himself today as well. Guy makes good stuff.)

As a BIAB brewer, I've never had a need for a basket it what I guess I mean to say.

pentiumone133 said:

I think what wilser means to say is that you should ditch the basket and get a custom tailored BIAB bag

(I have ordered from him, have a friend that was so impressed with by bag that he ordered one for himself today as well. Guy makes good stuff.)

As a BIAB brewer, I've never had a need for a basket it what I guess I mean to say.

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Haha...thanks for the plug pentiumone, what wilser is trying to say is "WHY USE A BASKET", it is called BIAB, not BIABB or brew in a basket bag, really not trying to promote sales, I have a pretty good day job and I think my prices reflect that, just can't figure why lots of brewers desire to use the basket??? I use the basket for seafood boils...works great!

The purpose of the basket to me is ease of use. The bag I made is very strong and properly fits my kettle. It can hold 35lbs+ and has very strong handles too. The reason I like the basket is I can keep it suspended over the kettle, while giving a little sparge water to the bag, with the water returning directly to the kettle not pouring all over the place because the bag has expanded past the width of the kettle. Ileave the bag to drip dry over the kettle for about 10 minutes before I discard of the grains.

To both wildcat and lonetexan, you both are saying you use a voile cloth bag in your kettle while leaving the element on? No burn marks whatsoever? Lonetexan, I know you mentioned you leave it at 5% manual, do you know what temp that is? Wildcat, what do you leave your temp at? I was thinking of while running my recirc to leave it at the mash tmep I require. I would think 154* would do some damage to voile (believe it's nylon) cloth.

Chris7687 said:

The purpose of the basket to me is ease of use. The bag I made is very strong and properly fits my kettle. It can hold 35lbs+ and has very strong handles too. The reason I like the basket is I can keep it suspended over the kettle, while giving a little sparge water to the bag, with the water returning directly to the kettle not pouring all over the place because the bag has expanded past the width of the kettle. Ileave the bag to drip dry over the kettle for about 10 minutes before I discard of the grains.

To both wildcat and lonetexan, you both are saying you use a voile cloth bag in your kettle while leaving the element on? No burn marks whatsoever? Lonetexan, I know you mentioned you leave it at 5% manual, do you know what temp that is? Wildcat, what do you leave your temp at? I was thinking of while running my recirc to leave it at the mash tmep I require. I would think 154* would do some damage to voile (believe it's nylon) cloth.

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I guess that using the bag in the basket would make it easier to do a sparge rinse of the grains. But why would you NEED to do that? I just string up the bag and let it hang over the kettle while it is coming up to boil. Sometimes I'll give it a good twist and/or squeeze to speed the draining up a little bit. You will not likely get any better efficiency by doing the "sparge" unless you have a really big grain bill.

As far as the PID setting on manual at 5%, there is not a specific temp setting. The PID is essentially turning the element on for 5% of the time and off 95%. This helps maintain the mash temp. So, using the pump to recirculate during the ramp up to mash temp of 156 then dropping in the grains will put me at mash temp of 150-151. Leave the pump off and mash in with your paddle, then set the pid to manual at 5%. I have played with the settings from 5% to 10% and 5% tends to maintain the temp without the temp creeping up.

The voile bag I am using is made from a sheer curtain from walmart. No, there has not been any issue with burning/scorching of the bag. The only time I had an issue was when using the pump to recirculate during the mash and the pump was pulling too fast creating an air pocket under the bag. The bag itself did not burn/scorch, the wort on the element caramelized/burnt. This is why I have stopped recirculating during the mash.

The pump is now just used during ramp up to mash temp and then to recirculate during chilling and then to whirlpool. In reality, I could get by without the pump, it would just mean more stirring.

I typically get 80-85% mash efficiency into the boil kettle and 70-75% overall brewhouse efficiency. This is not just with 1 or 2 batches, but with at least 80-100 gallons in the past year or so.

Bottom line is, if you want to use the basket and it works for you, use the basket. If you don't want to, then don't. The great thing is you will have beer at the end of the day.

I find a bag shapeless and irritating to use- on it's own. I use a basket to give to my bag shape. The basket prevents the bag from crushing my bazooka screen, from catching on corners, it helps allow wort to drip down rather than to the sides. While not necessary for Brew in a BAG, it sure makes my day easier.

I would go back to one of the initial posts and cut the legs. The legs are the issue, not the basket. Take them off, find some scrap wood, cut some blocks until you have the right height, transfer your measurements to the legs.

I would not cut the top of your pot. That basket lip might come in handy some day, and I also wonder how it's absence would affect the strength of the pot.

Finally, if you don't want to cut the legs and you don't want to cut the pot, couldn't you buy a nice piece of wood and cut yourself a doughnut? I wouldn't use press board and the heat will likely turn it to weird mush, but a real piece of wood could easily fill that gap. For that matter, why not use a silicon tubing, and make yourself a seal/0-ring.

I should point out that I agree with the PID guys, your PID will compensate. I also agree, that gap is a point of inefficiency and sealing that gap will improve your system an infinitely small amount, and that's the kind of piece of mind brewers need to sleep at night.

Who knows what the future holds, you might be cooking lobster in that steamer basket some day, I say don't cut it. Focus on the legs or make a ring/seal from wood or silicon tubing. This fix shouldn't be that hard.

Retrofit - Thanks for the support on reasoning behind using the basket. Couldn't put the words to "paper", but you hit the nail on the head.

The legs don't need to be cut, I just bought bolts from HD I will just go back and get the next size smaller. But there is still going to be a gap, as I showed in the picture with no legs the 0.75" gap. The silicone tubing might work.

Retrofit- do you eBIAB with recirc? If so, do you find the recirculation that much more efficient?

I have a RIMS tube and I do recirculate. I haven't perfected the system. When I ditch my RIMS tube and recirculate and use propane to heat my mash, I've got efficiencies as high as 90%

With the RIMS tube, I have a more difficult time establishing a steady temperature, and my efficiency has been in the very high 70's to low 80's.

I built my RIMS system last year and I took it apart this winter. I think I had flow issue/cavitation and I'm reassembling my gear now. I'm not a guy that has this technique mastered, but I think I have experience with the pitfalls.

In addition to having good to great efficiency, when the system works- it's hands off. Those times I've got my temp to stabilize, the stress in my day just goes away. I can clean up, drink a beer, not feel rushed, it's dream brewing. It's great to have people over, not pay attention, and have the mash hit numbers. It's like doing nothing and showing off.

BIAB/recirculation is not friendly to huge amounts of grain/high gravity. But I make a lot of session beers, so I don't need that ability. In some form or fashion I've been doing BIAB for about 3 years and it's resolved many issues my 'normal' all grain buddies have (efficiency, repeatability, clarity, good use of time).

I missed about about the gap wt out the legs, I would focus on using some tubing to make a 'O' ring. It can take the heat, it won't corrupt your beer, it should seal that space. I think that's the ticket!

I stopped using my basket after buying wilserbrewer's bag. I've packed it with ~18lbs of wet grain and had no concern that it would rip. I also get slightly better efficiency without the basket because the basket sits ~3" from the bottom of my kettle which means a lot of mash water wasn't reaching the grain. Getting the bag down low in the kettle seems to help.

I know you gone without the basket but thought you may be interested in this. I am a new BIAB brewer and was concerned about heat retention and decided to make a "pot cozy". I happened to have some leftover wrap from my hot water tank and came up with this



I just made it and have not tried it yet but think it will be much easier then getting out the blankets to wrap.

Ps I used some stick on Velcro to hold it tight around the pot.

Did the basket fit properly before the mod's to the kettle?? Looking at the 82q i don't see any feet on this basket. Could they have sent the wrong basket?
http://bayouclassicdepot.com/1182_stainless_steel_stock_pot.htm

I've been looking at the 44q from BC. After reading this thread. I'm a little confused by their measurements. On the 44q "Stainless Steel Stock Pot: 13.5 D x 17.25 H Perforated stainless steel basket – 12.5 D x 12.75 H". If my math is correct that leave 4.5". BUT, in the lower description "The 44 quart stainless steel stock pot basket measures 12 ½ inches by 16 ¼ inches."
http://bayouclassicdepot.com/1144_stainless_steel_stock_pot.htm
With a welded ball valve 4+" sould work fine. But if the second set of measurements are correct then... I don't think so. I'd have the same problem as OP
Maybe another beer will help me understand it