Priming with Apple Juice

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Sir Humpsalot

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According to my math, 36-40 ounces of Apple Juice will adequately prime a 5 gallon batch of hard cider.

I could lay out my math as I have indeed done it, but I would REALLY like someone to verify my process and work it out for themselves to see if they concur.

Any takers?
 
I'll take a stab at it. Apple juice has a specific gravity only slightly higher than water, I'd assume. Apple juice is ~11% sugar by weight. So you'd get about one ounce of sugar for every nine fluid ounces of apple juice. To get four ounces of sugar, a standard priming amount, you'd want about 36 fluid ounces of apple juice. Yeah?
 
Well, I believe you'd divide the result by that number, giving you ~34.5 fluid ounces, a trifling difference. Of course, if you wanted to go for five ounces of priming sugar, which is what comes in one of those little baggies at the LHBS, you'd need right around 43 fluid ounces. What process did you use to get your results?
 
I figured the apple juice at 40 points (that is, 1.040),

divided by 128 equals .3125 points per ounce


You need 2 to 2.5 points per gallon to adequately prime, so for a 5 gallon batch, that's 10-12.5 points, which is roughly 30 to 40 ounces.
 
Do you need to take into account that the dissolved sugars that contribute to those points are comprised of fully fermentable sugars as in dextrose's case?

I know this is why you have to use more DME to prime than corn sugar.

I am not trying to mess you up, but I am curious...I would like to prime with concentrate.
 
That's a very good point. I suppose that once I have the finishing gravity of my cider, I'll have a better handle on that issue and will know how much I can expect it to ferment out. Glad you brought it up though.

I think that it will be awesome to keep the ingredients to a minimum. The plan is, if I list the ingredients on the label, it will say, "Apple Juice, Apple Juice From Concentrate, and Yeast". Kinda cool, eh?

The plan for me is to keep one cider in primary, one or two in secondary and one bottled... and just keep them rotating. So, if you're racking/swapping/bottling all at the same time, it only makes sense to prime with the same stuff you're sticking into the primary.

Besides, while I haven't had as much time to brew lately as I would like, it's hard to resist dropping 5 gallons of juice and two cans of concentrate into the primary, capping it, and calling it a day. Too too too easy!!!
 
I think others have disscussed priming with concentrate over in the apfelwein thread.

I like the dryness of apfelwein but some of my friends like it a little sweeter. I was hoping that this would make it a bit sweeter.

I will look through that thread some and see if I can find anything:drunk:
 
Beerrific said:
I think others have disscussed priming with concentrate over in the apfelwein thread.

I like the dryness of apfelwein but some of my friends like it a little sweeter. I was hoping that this would make it a bit sweeter.

I will look through that thread some and see if I can find anything:drunk:

You are a braver man than I... though, in my defense, I did put in my time in that thread... :cross:

I thought about using concentrate, but then realized that the hydrometer won't be useful to measure it... I'd have to dilute it, measure the SG, then calculate back to figure the original OG of the juice. Seems easier to just use the juice.


As for liking it sweeter, I've got to say, my Hefeweizen-yeasted Hard Cider seems to be winding down in the mid-teens, a hair under 5%ABV and it tastes like candy. Think about it.. apple juice with banana and clove aromas? Yeahhhhhh
 
I looked some and it looks like others have used about 1/4 gallon of juice to prime. That is 32 ounces. That is what you said.

I think almost all the sugar in apple juice is fermentable...well within the margin of error that we can handle.

So if a can of concentrate makes 1/2 gallon of juice, I will use half a can.
 
You da man!!!

And actually, since this will be an on-going thing for me, I suppose there will always be opportunity to adjust it...
 
i will only prime with apple juice concentrate. it ferments quickly, it adds flavor, its cheap, it never contains preservatives, and since its made in a factory its is as sterile as it needs to be.
 
Perhaps, instead of priming, just don't let the cider/Apfelwein ferment dry and bottle before it hits its FG.
 
I suppose one could use weight in grams of sugar rather than % by volume (hydrometer). The juice concentrates list grams of sugar and although it is a mix of fructose and other sugars they are all ferment-able. So by knowing the weight of corn sugar (glucose) normally used to prime the desired amount of co2, you can use the equivalent in grams of the concentrate syrup by dividing the total grams in the can by the #of grams of fructose needed. this will give you the fraction of the can you need to use. As far as its contribution to more apple flavor I have no idea. I am bottling tomorrow and have decided to try this concentrate method to prime my cider in the hopes of adding more flavor. It turned out very dry and has been aging in secondary for about a year with oak and cinnamon. I used KV-1116 and the flavor is ok with great cinnamon bouquet but i want a little more apple to my apple cider. I have even contemplated trying to find a artificial apple flavor concentrate, or just boiling a bunch of apple jolly rancher candies down. I saved the trub for yeast from the primary and will repitch a quarter of a cup of slurry that has been reproofed at the priming temp with the juice concentrate and some yeast nutrients so they will be off and running to prime. I think my flavor issue is due to the strain of yeast I used. I will also be adding a bit of splenda, starting off light like half a cup because i have a feeling the concentrate sugars will all turn into alcohol and co2. I'll re-post in a week or so to tell how it turned out. Man, cider is for the patient. Next time I am going to use an ale yeast and stop fermentation at a desired FG after bottle priming using a pasteurization technique. I am not sure if I can age this for a year like I did the fully attenuated stuff though. and the oak and cinnamon if put into the primary might not have the time to infuse their flavor. I plan to make apple jack by freezing with some of this 5.5 gallon batch too. I'll figure the weight numbers out and post it soon.
 
So the concentrate I have has 27 grams of sugar per serving and there are 6 servings in the can. That's 27x6= 162g's per can divided by 28.35g/oz= 5.7 oz by weight of apple sugars. Using a monogram conversion chart in Palmer's "How To Brew" for a 5 gallon volume, at 70 degrees F using sucrose as a reference should yield 3.25 volumes of CO2 for the entire can of concentrate. This is about what a German wheat beer has and is on the higher side of carbonation, which I want in order to have a bubbly hard cider. Half the can yields approx. 2.2 volumes of CO2 on par with a typical American ale
I found the average composition of apple sugars with a little net searching http://www.springerlink.com/content/6v3mnk20r97cwmx5/fulltext.pdfto be 15%glucose(corn sugar) 62%fructose(fruit sugar) and 23%sucrose (cane sugar aka table sugar). All of which are 100% ferment-able to alcohol and CO2. Yeast have a pecking order consuming all the glucose and glucose derived from splitting sucrose. Then turning to the fructose to finish. This is great because fructose is sweeter than glucose and if you are monitoring your carbonation you could halt priming by refrigeration before all the fructose is fully consumed thereby imparting some sweetness. Use a plastic soda bottle to track CO2 level. fill it leave head space like a glass bottle then carefully squeeze out the extra air denting the side and cap like this. The CO2 will push it back out and the bottle sides will become rigid when carbonation is at a desired level. If your cider is flat a can of concentrate does not a bottle bomb make. Seems perfect by the numbers and by what others are posting too. I shall see in a week!
 
Oh so using the standard 3.7 oz of sucrose for priming 5 gallons of beer, we have 3.7 divided by 5.7 oz total giving 65% of the concentrate, close to 2/3 of a can. I'm still going with 1 whole can.
 
you can let it thaw but im lazy and just dump it into the bottling bucket and give it a stir till its dissolved well. never had any bottle bombs...though i have had a few that were very carbonated. not gushers mind you just VERY carbonated.
 
you can let it thaw but im lazy and just dump it into the bottling bucket and give it a stir till its dissolved well. never had any bottle bombs...though i have had a few that were very carbonated. not gushers mind you just VERY carbonated.

Trying it right now on a batch of apple/cinnimon hope it doesnt explode;)
 
I am going to bottle a natural-yeast cider, fermented down to dry and bulk aged a few months, primed with fresh juice (kitchen juicer, allowed to clear overnight) for true 1-ingredient cider. If the juice is 10% sugars (1.040ish, a reasonable estimate, but i haven't juiced it yet) and i want relatively high bubbles (3 vol) then the primer calculator on tastybrew says i should use 93g sucrose for my 12.5 L batch (or 3.3 oz for 3.2 gallons for fans of the empire). 930 ml of 10% juice = 93g sugars, so i'll mix in about 1 L fresh juice (adjusted depending on hydrometer reading of the juice). does this seem a bit much to anyone? is 3.0 vol CO2 within reason for cider?? i will bottle one plastic one to check by hand, and will certainly pasteurize if things get a bit too boisterous. wearing a welding visor. and will post results if i still have eyes.
 
If I remember correctly, 2.5 pints of 1.045 juice in 5 gallons should give you 3 volumes at 65 F. That's the equivalent of 5 ozs of cane sugar.
 
If I remember correctly, 2.5 pints of 1.045 juice in 5 gallons should give you 3 volumes at 65 F. That's the equivalent of 5 ozs of cane sugar.

that's 1.18L priming juice in 18.9 L cider, or 62 ml per 1L cider. my 'calculation' gave 74 ml priming per L; same ballpark, sounds good. juiced some beautiful Elstars which cleared overnight to a delicious rose-pink crystal clear juice reading in the neighborhood of 1.055, higher than i expected so i'll add a bit less. thanks!
 
that's 1.18L priming juice in 18.9 L cider, or 62 ml per 1L cider. my 'calculation' gave 74 ml priming per L; same ballpark, sounds good. juiced some beautiful Elstars which cleared overnight to a delicious rose-pink crystal clear juice reading in the neighborhood of 1.055, higher than i expected so i'll add a bit less. thanks!

this worked a treat, my first time priming with juice, this batch was very slow start to finish, natural yeast, apples grown and pressed by a friend outside paris. had it in my chilly stairwell, was probably around 10-14C most of the time, and fermentation finally slowed to a crawl around 6 weeks ago, during the recent cold snap here and i brought it inside to bottle and when it warmed up (from probably about 8 to 20) it was back off to the races. 6 hours in my kitchen it was bubbling away. 1.010 still! after about 8 weeks in secondary. added fresh juice as detailed above, was a bit heavy handed since i had extra, and bottled one in a plastic water bottle, unsurprisingly hard as a rock after 4 days, opened one and it is just about there fizz-wise. taste-wise the little bit of unexpected residual sugar makes it a delight! this coming from a big fan of dry cider. pasteurization in my near future. and aging. priming with juice highly recommended. plus the only ingredient in my cider is apple!!
 
just popped a bottle of my third batch of cider and surprisingly enough my tweaking is complete, i mean complete complete no more tweaking ever, 3.5 gallon recipe, primed with one can of thawed apple juice concentrate, no gushers, carbed like champagne very bubbly, my swmbo said its the best cider she has ever had good apple taste, some residual sweetness but not to much to where you couldnt drink a whole mess of these if you wanted to although at probably close to ~10% abv i think youd be hard pressed to but the alcohol taste hides nicely in the cider, and carbed like a fine champagne, i wont change a thing that is for sure.
so in review i say go ahead and carb with juice concentrate i think its the only way to go, and i used an entire can for 3.5 gallons of cider. no bottle bombs here....yet, cider has been in the bottle at room temp (68F) for over 17 days now so i think im safe. good luck pm if you have any other questions about my processes.
 
Thanks tnbrewer371

I have a 5gal 1.040 sasion that is at 1.006. I was thinking of using Muscat grape concentrate listed at 68 degree brix per 100 grams solution.

I have no idea how to covert these numbers to get to ounces of concentrate for 3vols carbonation in a 5 gal branch. Some quesitons:
- what would this add to the flavor profile
- I'm not looking for 'champane-like carbonation
- How long to reach full carbonation

-Cheers
 
if your not looking for champagne like carbonation i would consider using just one can of juice concentrate for the 5 gal i used a full can of juice concentrate for 3.5 gal and its very bubbly like champagne. it adds some backsweetening and some serious carbonation like a champagne, doing it this way and leaving the bottles at room temp (68F) mine carbed quick in like 18 days or so even with leaving the juice in primary for three months. i really liked the results with this and will from here out only carb my ciders this way. let me know if i didnt answer all your questions and please let me know how this turns out
 
I've read this entire thread and thanks everyone for the math, trial and error, and followups. I'm bottling my latest batch of Apfelwein in the next couple of days and I'm going with the apple juice concentrate. Cheers!
 
Thanks to all the posters in the thread. (Old I know but the info is good)

Just made a 1 gallon batch of Brandon O's Graff and have a little apple juice left I'd like to use. I'm thinking 9-10 oz of apple juice for a high level of carbonation would work well

I did not measure the OG but I'm thinking it must be ~1.06. Used S-05

A lot of fun making this little 1 gallon batch with a coffee grinder for the crystal80 and tea bags to steep.
 
just popped a bottle of my third batch of cider and surprisingly enough my tweaking is complete, i mean complete complete no more tweaking ever, 3.5 gallon recipe, primed with one can of thawed apple juice concentrate, no gushers, carbed like champagne very bubbly, my swmbo said its the best cider she has ever had good apple taste, some residual sweetness but not to much to where you couldnt drink a whole mess of these if you wanted to although at probably close to ~10% abv i think youd be hard pressed to but the alcohol taste hides nicely in the cider, and carbed like a fine champagne, i wont change a thing that is for sure.
so in review i say go ahead and carb with juice concentrate i think its the only way to go, and i used an entire can for 3.5 gallons of cider. no bottle bombs here....yet, cider has been in the bottle at room temp (68F) for over 17 days now so i think im safe. good luck pm if you have any other questions about my processes.


I am new to this and still trying to figure out a lot of things... it would be nice if I had one less thing to worry about. Any interest in sharing your recipe? I have processed 3 batches of Edworts Apfelwein and have been pleased with the results, but I am still not truly happy with it. "best cider ever" definitely has my curiosity piqued and I would be extremely grateful if you would be willing to share your recipe.

:tank:
 
just popped a bottle of my third batch of cider and surprisingly enough my tweaking is complete, i mean complete complete no more tweaking ever, 3.5 gallon recipe, primed with one can of thawed apple juice concentrate, no gushers, carbed like champagne very bubbly, my swmbo said its the best cider she has ever had good apple taste, some residual sweetness but not to much to where you couldnt drink a whole mess of these if you wanted to although at probably close to ~10% abv i think youd be hard pressed to but the alcohol taste hides nicely in the cider, and carbed like a fine champagne, i wont change a thing that is for sure.
so in review i say go ahead and carb with juice concentrate i think its the only way to go, and i used an entire can for 3.5 gallons of cider. no bottle bombs here....yet, cider has been in the bottle at room temp (68F) for over 17 days now so i think im safe. good luck pm if you have any other questions about my processes.

So my questions for you!

*what was your final gravity on your cider? I suspect that an FG of 1.00 and .994 would require different amounts of concentrate.

*one can of concentrate - is that 12oz?

*love lots of bubbles but have not been able to achieve them on my own and would love to not have to pasteurize. Some more insight into your recipe or method would gladly be appreciated!!

*5 galling batch would be 1.5 cans?
 
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