IPA FG 1.026, Stout FG 1.022, what to do?

I just went to keg two beers last night, and needless to say it turned out to be a dissapointment. The IPA was still at 1.026, and the Stout was still at a 1.022, after 5 weeks! They were still in the primary in the fermentation cabinet, since I haven't had any time to mess with them. And suffice to say, this time I learned my lesson for not taking a gravity reading beforehand, say after 2-3 weeks. But now I'm stuck on what to do. The IPA I actually moved over to a corny keg, and it has some light CO2 pressure on it, just to keep out O2. And the stout is still in the primary. I've read that some people use some sort of enzyme to take the beer down a notch, does that work well? How does it effect the flavor? I'll post the recipe and mash temp below for anyone interested. Any help would be appreciated, wanted to have this ready by new years, but I guess we'll see. THanks HOMEBREWTALK!!!
Note: Both ended up mashing at 156F, and both were made with a 1 liter Yeast starters two days prior, plus I oxygenated both after the boil for 1 minute prior to fermentation with pure o2. The fermentation temp was about 65F for three days, but then droppped to 62 F and then 59F the two days after, activity slowed way down when temp dropped, and it took 3-4 weeks for krausen to fall. Wondering if that had anything to do with it??

Hopinitas IPA
American IPA


Type: All Grain
Date: 11/7/2010
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Brewer: Phil Ross
Boil Size: 6.88 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Phil's Keggle (15 Gal) and Igloo Cooler (5 Gal)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
11.33 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 92.64 %
0.40 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.27 %
0.30 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 2.45 %
0.20 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 1.64 %
1.20 oz Simcoe [12.00 %] (60 min) Hops 43.0 IBU
2.00 oz Nugget [8.00 %] (30 min) Hops 36.8 IBU
1.00 oz Williamette [4.70 %] (15 min) Hops 7.0 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.60 %] (15 min) Hops 12.8 IBU
2.00 oz Cascade [4.40 %] (10 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
1.60 oz Williamette [4.70 %] (5 min) Hops 4.5 IBU
2.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [9.40 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.062 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.061 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.016 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.026 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.99 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 4.57 %
Bitterness: 104.0 IBU Calories: 281 cal/pint
Est Color: 6.6 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 12.23 lb
Sparge Water: 4.78 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 15.29 qt of water at 165.9 F 154.0 F



Steinbart Oatmeal Stout - 5 Gal
Oatmeal Stout


Type: All Grain
Date: 11/7/2010
Batch Size: 6.10 gal
Brewer: Phil Ross
Boil Size: 8.65 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot (6+gal) and Igloo/Gott Cooler (5 Gal)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 32.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
10.50 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 77.49 %
1.00 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 7.38 %
1.00 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 7.38 %
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 5.54 %
0.30 lb Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 2.21 %
2.50 oz Williamette [4.00 %] (60 min) Hops 25.4 IBU
1.00 oz Williamette [4.00 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 11.2 IBU
1.00 oz Williamette [4.00 %] (15 min) Hops 5.0 IBU
1.90 oz Cascade [4.40 %] (5 min) Hops 4.7 IBU
6.00 gal Portland OR Water
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [Starter 2000 ml] Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.061 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.053 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.022 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.03 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 4.04 %
Bitterness: 46.4 IBU Calories: 242 cal/pint
Est Color: 32.4 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 13.55 lb
Sparge Water: 6.29 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 16.94 qt of water at 168.7 F 154.0 F

I would say it's definitely a combination of the High Mash temp & cooler ferm temps. Ideally you want to keep your primary fermentation at you target temp for a week, and then it warm up to the upper 60's, 70 max to let the yeast finish up and get rid of any Diacytel. So if you can warm the beer up to 70, you may be able to get them down a couple more points.

Not sure if there is much you can do for the IPA since you racked it off the yeast. I suppose you could try adding a pack of S-05 to it, after you warm it up. IMO, on an IPA you want to Mash around 150-151. Your 156 mash temp combined with the Carapils & Crystal malts(though not big amounts) put a fair amount of unfermentables in the beer. I hear of folks using Beano to break those down, but I have never done that myself.


I wouldn't sweat the Stout too much, it may be a bit chewy but that's not necesarily a bad thing in a Stout.

Also, I see you made a Starter for the Stout, did you do one for the IPA as well?

It should never take 3-4 weeks for krausen to fall. It sounds like you pitched enough yeast. The mash temp would not affect the krausen falling. I am guessing that the fermentation temp drop has a lot to do with it. I have fermented 1.080+ beers and they were at final gravity within 3-4 days and in the keg in 10-14 days.

Also, tell more details about the starter. Did you stir-plate? Chill and decant? etc...

A little amylase enzyme, warming to about 70*, and swirling the fermenter to bring the floc'd yeast back into suspension works great.

Yankeehillbrewer: yes, I did make a starter for the ipa, same as the stout

MachineshopBrewing: For a starter, I boiled 2L of water with 7 oz DME (that was all I had), then split that into two parts. The one part I put in a flask on a stir plate, which I did have some trouble keeping the stir bar spinning. The other part I put in a growler and shook it up every 6 hours or so. Both showed signs of activity during the starter, but not a huge amount of krausen. Then I chilled and decanted both at least 6 hours prior to pitching.

I agree that the temperature had a big part about it. They were fermenting fairly normal for the first three days, but after the temp drop, activity slowed pretty good. I really wanted to buy a Brewer's Edge Heat Pad to attach to the wall of the ferm. cabinet before I started the brewday, but ran out of time for them to ship it. I guess that will be my next thing to buy before I brew next.

I feel like the stout might be fine, I don't mind my stouts to be a little sweet. But is there anything I can do with the IPA. At 1.026, if I keg it up, it probably won't taste quite right. Could I drop in the S-05 right into the corny keg, after letting the keg warm up to room temp, let that ferment a little, and then just transfer to another corny. Even if it drops it to 1.016 or close I'd be happy. Needless to say, my brewing process still has kinks to be worked out. Thanks guys

156F mash temp is the main culprit, in my opinion.

x2 ^^^^^^^

Make sure you calibrate the thermometer. 156F isn't that high and should get at least 75% attenuation with most yeasts at that mash temp.. Your 156F reading might actually be 165F.

Wow, I'm kind of surprised that it might be the mash temp. I guess either the recipe that called for 156F was wrong, or when I typed it into Beersmith, that was wrong too?? So this might be veering towards All-grain q's, but I only do batch sparge brewing, without mash out usually. But I always have a hard time figuring out which mash profile to use in Beersmith. And which body profile to use, full body, light body, etc.

I calibrated the thermometer when I first got it, but it may have got out of whack. What's the best way to calibrate it, do people just do the cold water and ice trick, let it sit for 15 min, and then take temp to see if it is 32F?

damdaman said:

A little amylase enzyme, warming to about 70*, and swirling the fermenter to bring the floc'd yeast back into suspension works great.

Click to expand...

No!!!! Unless the beer is undrinkably sweet (and the stout is fine at 1.022), I wouldn't do that.

If the IPA is undrinkable, you may have to do something like that, though.

smalltown2001 said:

I calibrated the thermometer when I first got it, but it may have got out of whack. What's the best way to calibrate it, do people just do the cold water and ice trick, let it sit for 15 min, and then take temp to see if it is 32F?

Click to expand...

Use boiling Water. It is closer to your mash temps. I can calibrate my thermometer with ice water and it'll read 8 degrees off when I place it in boiling water. I can calibrate it with boiling water and it'll read way off when I place it in ice water. Since you can't really get both, calibrate it at boiling.

Yooper said:

No!!!! Unless the beer is undrinkably sweet (and the stout is fine at 1.022), I wouldn't do that.

If the IPA is undrinkable, you may have to do something like that, though.

Click to expand...

Curious what your objection is? Obviously it's not ideal, but it's not ideal to have a 1.026 IPA either. I've only done this once but it worked.

Maybe this is stupid to bring up...but just want to throw out all possibilities. Is your hydrometer accurate? I recently got a new one and it was off. Granted even a few points won't make a huge difference, but it might be a little better.

Definitely try to let it sit longer with and increase the temp if possible. And Krausen can last 4+ weeks sometimes! Depends what type of party the yeasties are throwing, Around that time you can stir the yeast back into the beer if you are ate FG.

MachineShopBrewing said:

It should never take 3-4 weeks for krausen to fall. It sounds like you pitched enough yeast. The mash temp would not affect the krausen falling. I am guessing that the fermentation temp drop has a lot to do with it.

Click to expand...

He didn't say what yeast he used. One of my yeasts (WLP022) will stay on top of the wort for 3 weeks regularly. I's a pain to have to maintain ferment temps for that long.


For the OP: I think your problem is your ferment temps. When you cooled the wort (probably just as active fermentation was dropping so could not self heat), the yeast quit working and dropped.

For the stout. Bring it up to about 70F, and rouse the yeast and it should ferment some more. If you are kegging, there is still an outside chance this could be ready for New Year.

For the IPA. Try the same, but it has a lot less yeast and may be very slow. It takes about 2 weeks to carb a beer at 70F, that's about 3 points (.003). If the Stout starts working OK, you could rack the IPA onto the cake when you keg the IPA.


I agree that you probably should have mashed lower for the IPA, but that is not your problem here.

I disagree that it'll ferment more. Or at least the stout. At 1.022 (not a bad FG for that recipe), and a mash temp of 156, it's simply done.

My objection to the amylase comes from having a probably too-dry beer as a result. For the IPA, it might be necessary because a too-sweet IPA isn't a good thing.

I'd calibrate my hydrometer first, to ensure that the IPA is indeed 1.026. Then I'd taste it again and see if I could live with it. I wouldn't be raising temperatures. The mash at 156 means that it probably just won't ferment much more. If I could live with it as it, and maybe drop hop in the keg to cover/blend with some of the sweetness, I'd do that.

Then I'd calibrate my thermometer, and mash no IPA above 153 ever again.

smalltown2001 said:

Wow, I'm kind of surprised that it might be the mash temp. I guess either the recipe that called for 156F was wrong, or when I typed it into Beersmith, that was wrong too?? So this might be veering towards All-grain q's, but I only do batch sparge brewing, without mash out usually. But I always have a hard time figuring out which mash profile to use in Beersmith. And which body profile to use, full body, light body, etc.

I calibrated the thermometer when I first got it, but it may have got out of whack. What's the best way to calibrate it, do people just do the cold water and ice trick, let it sit for 15 min, and then take temp to see if it is 32F?

Click to expand...

beersmith doesn't do anything magical to the FG when you select different profiles. FG is simply calculated by OG*(1 - average attenuation of the yeast selected). The average attenuation ranges are also just that, average ranges. There was a similar thread about this same thing recently, the guy contacted wyeast about it.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/bad-yeast-just-unfermentable-wort-211897/#post2479421

MY QUESTION:
What assumptions about wort fermentability does Wyeast make when determining the attenuation variability range for each paticular strain? For example, does the low end of the range account for an unusually non-fermentable wort, such as one created using 30% specialty/flaked/roasted grains, and mashed at temps around 156F? Or do the ranges assume a 'normal' wort and reflect only variability within the yeast itself.

WYEAST RESPONSE:
The reported attenuation numbers are based on tests completed years ago (standard media) but are, in my opinion, considered obsolete. Over the last year, I have been working to reduce the importance assigned to attenuation numbers. Wort and fermentation conditions are far more important when considering the expected level of attenuation. Most ale strains attenuate to the approximately the same level (+/- 1.5%). Lager and Wheat strains will attenuate a little less (-1.5%).

I am currently working on assigning new numbers to all of our strains

Click to expand...

Here's another vote for high mash and a potentially inaccurate thermometer.

I just lived the same story with my last stout (still working out the kinks in getting Beersmith to properly adjust temp for my mash tun). Stout finished at 1.024. My mash was probably >160 deg F for the first 20 minutes.

Calibrate that thermometer with boiling water as previously mentioned and I'll bet this problem will go away with your next batch.

Yooper said:

I disagree that it'll ferment more. Or at least the stout. At 1.022 (not a bad FG for that recipe), and a mash temp of 156, it's simply done.

My objection to the amylase comes from having a probably too-dry beer as a result. For the IPA, it might be necessary because a too-sweet IPA isn't a good thing.

I'd calibrate my hydrometer first, to ensure that the IPA is indeed 1.026. Then I'd taste it again and see if I could live with it. I wouldn't be raising temperatures. The mash at 156 means that it probably just won't ferment much more. If I could live with it as it, and maybe drop hop in the keg to cover/blend with some of the sweetness, I'd do that.

Then I'd calibrate my thermometer, and mash no IPA above 153 ever again.

Click to expand...

I agree. And if the hydrometer is calibrated correctly, what about throwing some Notty in the IPA to try and pull it down a few more clicks, Yoop?

Here's my $0.02 worth.
Nothing wrong with 156F. I brew an IPA recipe frequently that will acheive 1.012 from 1.060 no problemo. I tend to side with the thermometer calibration camp. If you want to calibrate a bi-metal dial type of thermometer you need to do it at the target temp range. Doing it a 32 or 212F will produce inaccurate results mid scale.
Also I think your starter was weak. Unless my math is wrong you had half as much DME as required resulting in a OG of your starter somewhere around 1.022.
Keep swing there's lots of home runs to be had.
HD

I'm looking at the numbers and I'm getting 58% attenuation on the IPA. That's a bit low even for a mashing temp of 156F. Given one of the lowest attenuating strain (Fuller's strain: WLP002 or Wyeast 1968) is rated to 67% attenuation, I would think you could knock off a few more points off that 1.026. I saw somewhere in this forum (and I have no idea if the source was accurate or not) that yeast attenuation numbers are estimates based on a mashing temperature of 155F. Based on that assumption and given you mashing temps for these beers, you should get at the very least 65% attenuation given proper fermentation conditions with any ale strain.

So you should definitely try and dry it up a bit more. You'll definitely need to warm it up a bit. There are few ale strains that will ferment below 60F. Wyeast 1007 and WLP036 as well as Danstar's Nottingham are examples that are coming to mind that will ferment cooler. I will second the previous poster's suggestion of pitching Nottingham. It's cheap, and will ferment fine at 59F and is clean enough at that temp that it won't alter your beer's flavor. In the event that your beer is trully unfermentable at this point, notty will flocc out and you'll be back at the same point as before so you wont hurt your beer by trying this. Good luck!

Yooper said:

I disagree that it'll ferment more. Or at least the stout. At 1.022 (not a bad FG for that recipe), and a mash temp of 156, it's simply done.

Click to expand...

I stand by my original post. 1.022 is only 63% attenuation. I see there is a lot of roasted malts in the recipe, so that could lead to a high FG, but 1.022 is still too high. He just cooled it down too much too quick.

hopdawg said:

Also I think your starter was weak. Unless my math is wrong you had half as much DME as required resulting in a OG of your starter somewhere around 1.022.

Click to expand...

I've not checked his method, but a 1.022 starter is not a problem. We are reproducing cells, not fermenting beer. + the pack was probably OK to pitch straight.

hopdawg said:

Here's my $0.02 worth.
Nothing wrong with 156F. I brew an IPA recipe frequently that will acheive 1.012 from 1.060 no problemo. I tend to side with the thermometer calibration camp. If you want to calibrate a bi-metal dial type of thermometer you need to do it at the target temp range. Doing it a 32 or 212F will produce inaccurate results mid scale.

Click to expand...

Bimetal temp sensors are preeettty near linear. Calibrating it at 32 and 212 will produce very accurate results mid scale. The issue I have with 212 is that, depending on the current air pressure, you could be a few degrees off.

PTC sensors are less linear on the edges of their read range, but in the middle of their range, they're pretty solid.

Curious as to how this scenario ended up. Just bottled an oatmeal stout yesterday that ended up with an FG of 1.024. Had been in the primary for three weeks @ around 70-72*F. Sample didn't taste overly sweet or nasty. Maybe a slightly pronounced liquorice flavour. Figured, or more to the point hoping, a nice, longish, warm conditioning session would work some magic.

Ogri said:

Curious as to how this scenario ended up. Just bottled an oatmeal stout yesterday that ended up with an FG of 1.024. Had been in the primary for three weeks @ around 70-72*F. Sample didn't taste overly sweet or nasty. Maybe a slightly pronounced liquorice flavour. Figured, or more to the point hoping, a nice, longish, warm conditioning session would work some magic.

Click to expand...

It's hard to judge FG numbers without an OG.

DragonOrta said:

It's hard to judge FG numbers without an OG.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I've realised that and every batch done since then has had OG duly noted.

Anyway, calculates out to 1.078 with an estimated FG of 1.020, so not too far off really. Thanks for the input

I was mostly interested to see how the original poster's brews both turned out.