How to use oxygen to aerate wort?

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Thanks to eastoak and Arclight for their responses. I hope that I haven't come off as too confrontational. I am still searching out the truth, as we all are.

I think that pure O2 in a commercial application makes sense. I just don't believe it's necessary at the homebrew level. It's much easier to introduce oxygen into wort in a 5 gallon batch than it is at commercial volumes. I think that some of the advice imparted by the pros to the homebrewers doesn't apply due to the difference in volumes.

To Arclight I would ask, what does Chris White say? Does he say that pure O2 is preferable over air in a homebrew?
 
>>To Arclight I would ask, what does Chris White say? Does he say that pure O2 is preferable over air in a homebrew?

Pretty much.


>>Thanks to eastoak and Arclight for their responses. I hope that I haven't come off as too confrontational.

Lets just say I would not post the way you did. Especially if I was not certain of what I was talking about.
:p


>>I am still searching out the truth, as we all are.

Speak for yourself. I use an Oxygen wand. The only question I have is if enough O2 dissolves in the wort, or does it bubble out and get lost? I use a low flow rate, for 60-90 seconds. And I shake/rock the fermentor for 60 seconds. On a thread I started a few months ago (I think) when I asked about bubble size (0.5 vs 2 micron) someone said that it wasn't taht the )2 instantly dissolved in liquid, the liquid had to be agitated.
 
OK, Arclight.
I shouldn't have posted as I did because I'm not sure of myself? I shouldn't say we're all "searching for truth" because you already know the truth? Is that what you're saying?

Well, I quoted my "expert". I don't know if he's right, but you apparently feel that Chris White is a better "expert". I have no reason to doubt you, but when I ask if he prefers pure O2 aeration in homebrewing, you respond with "pretty much"? Seems like a pretty weak response to me. Why didn't you quote him?

I really don't know what to think about your response. Maybe you could clarify a little.
 
>> I don't know if he's right, but you apparently feel that Chris White is a better "expert". I have no reason to doubt you, but when I ask if he prefers pure O2 aeration in homebrewing, you respond with "pretty much"? Seems like a pretty weak response to me. Why didn't you quote him?

When you make beer, and add yeast. What yest do you use? Wyeast? White Labs? Muntons? Etc. Chris White is the person who founded White Labs.
He has a Ph.D in biochemistry, and also works with various breweries. Not just some ivory tower academic, he has to satisfy very demanding customers.

In the book, he (and his co-author) discuss oxygenation of wort. They compare different methods. They discuss why it's needed. Its a rare home brewer who over oxygenates their wort. The book has some charts and tables that show various results from different Oxygenation methods.
Proper oxygenation will help to make a better tasting beer, but no guarantees.
 
Glad I found this thread before starting another. Clearly yeast need oxygen, not nitrogen, co2, methane, or any of the other components of "air". My grandma who is awesome, gave me a full and quite large medical tank with a regulator(for brewing). I plan on getting a defusing stone or potentially just going with the Williams wand. Does anyone have any advice as to how to best use this tank to get oxygen to my yeast? What is the best tubing to use and is the aquarium supply route the easiest and cheapest?

Thanks.
 
I have been reading through the old posts regarding aerating wort with oxygen.
I have seen posts from " a light stream of bubbles for the last couple of minutes of chilling" to 5 or 10 liters per minute with no time frame given.

I have a couple of medical oxygen tanks since my mother passed in December and was wondering how to put them to use. I can get a 2 micron stone but would like to know how to most efficiently use it.
Thank you

Just do your mom good and name the brews in referance to her;)
 
According to WYeast's website:

"Some yeast strains have higher oxygen requirements than others. It is generally safe to assume that you need at least 10ppm of oxygen. 10ppm will supply adequate oxygen in most situations. Over-oxygenation is generally not a concern as the yeast will use all available oxygen within 3 to 9 hours of pitching and oxygen will come out of solution during that time as well. Under-oxygenation is a much bigger concern."
 
I have been transferring my wort from kettle to carboy through a funnel that has a strainer in it. This seems to aerate the wort pretty well by itself from what I can tell. I think it's much like what happens to tap water from my faucet as it flows through the attached screen. So far I havent had any issues with this that I am aware of.

But, since I am always wanting to improve my process and the finished product I recently bought an O2 regulator and SS stone. Reading this thread has made me doubt this will actually improve anything at all. Guess I'll just have to try it and see for myself. Hopefully this wont wind up being as useless as the copper pre-chiller I purchased... :p
 
The yeast book Arclight refers to has a good table on how much O2 you can get into wort by each method.

The crux of the matter is boiling removes available oxygen from wort, and yeast need It. There is a fixed maximum output you can get by agitation, using an air pump, or even bubbling pure o2 without an airstone.

That said, home brewing is both science and art - it seems the pure O2 is most important if you're repitching yeast over multiple generations and/or trying to get the exact same beer every time. If one method works for you and you get great results, it'll be a while before you'll be happy with a different approach.
 
Glad I found this thread before starting another. Clearly yeast need oxygen, not nitrogen, co2, methane, or any of the other components of "air". My grandma who is awesome, gave me a full and quite large medical tank with a regulator(for brewing). I plan on getting a defusing stone or potentially just going with the Williams wand. Does anyone have any advice as to how to best use this tank to get oxygen to my yeast? What is the best tubing to use and is the aquarium supply route the easiest and cheapest?

Thanks.

I have the Williams wand, and its pretty convenient.
Having said that, the Oxygen stone is 2 microns. Austin Home Brew sells an oxygenation system with a 0.5 micron stone. I wonder if those bubbles are more easily absorbed by (dissolved into) the wort? You can use some stainless steel nuts to weigh down the stone, because the plastic tubing will make it float.
 
I have my mixing bucket on the bench full of Wort & my Fermenter below it, I open the tap on the bucket & let the Wort drop into the Fermenter adding the yeast as it drops. This gives "plenty" of aeration & I get a bubble in the air-lock within the hour.



Works for me.



Regards Travis
 
>>I have my mixing bucket on the bench full of Wort & my Fermenter below it, I open the tap on the bucket & let the Wort drop into the Fermenter adding the yeast as it drops. This gives "plenty" of aeration

Probably not.

It's not that your yeast wont make beer, of course they will. But they would probably benefit from more dissolved Oxygen.


>>Works for me.

Just because you don't perceive any problems when your process is not good, doesn't mean it's ok.

If you don't do a lot of things, you will still get beer. The objective is to make great beer, not "ok" beer.

You don't have to make a yeast starter. You can under pitch and you will get beer.
"I never make a yeast starter, get a bubble in the air-lock within the hour. Works for me."


You don't have to clean so well, you might not get an infection.
"I just rinse out my plate chiller, I don't bother soaking it in PBW or Starsan, I've never gotten an infection. Works for me."

You don't have to ferment at correct temperatures, you will still get beer.
"My fermentor is in my garage, and the temperature fluctuates by 20 degrees daily. My beer tastes great. My friends Bubba and JoeBob never detect any off flavors. Works for me."
 
kombat said:
Hmm... before I found this thread, I was advised that an easy way to aerate your wort was with a paint mixer attachment on a drill. So I bought one at Home Depot and gave it a good wash - is it safe to use this in my wort, even though it was intended (but never yet used for) mixing paint? Will 2-3 minutes of vigorous mixing with this thing on my drill sufficiently aerate my wort?

That's exactly what I do, in addition to properly sized starters, with great success. Cheers!
 
Your comments I treat with almost contempt, your initial reply "probably not" indicates no knowledge of the procedure I described & you have obviously not tried it? The method I use actually creates an immense amount of oxygenation. Your cynical anecdotes of "it works for me" is a little undermining of the brewers out there like me who try different methods & "yes" it works for me & them.



As a Senior Manager with a large Utility, I would never rebuff a suggestion or a procedure or process without checking it out to see iff it did or didn't work (there is profit to be made from an idea)



Here in the UK we have really good local Brewers, my goal is to taste a good beer in a Pub & replicate it at home (& I do)



I attend Brewery tours, listen to the Brewer in Charge, ask questions & act on the answers.



(I also buy my grain & yeast from a local Brewer)



I am no Spring Chicken



Regards Travis
 
This is getting heated, I use a tube with a motorcycle fuel filter and blow through it for a few secs. Great beer every time.
 
>>I have my mixing bucket on the bench full of Wort & my Fermenter below it, I open the tap on the bucket & let the Wort drop into the Fermenter adding the yeast as it drops. This gives "plenty" of aeration

Probably not.

It's not that your yeast wont make beer, of course they will. But they would probably benefit from more dissolved Oxygen.


>>Works for me.

Just because you don't perceive any problems when your process is not good, doesn't mean it's ok.

If you don't do a lot of things, you will still get beer. The objective is to make great beer, not "ok" beer.

You don't have to make a yeast starter. You can under pitch and you will get beer.
"I never make a yeast starter, get a bubble in the air-lock within the hour. Works for me."


You don't have to clean so well, you might not get an infection.
"I just rinse out my plate chiller, I don't bother soaking it in PBW or Starsan, I've never gotten an infection. Works for me."

You don't have to ferment at correct temperatures, you will still get beer.
"My fermentor is in my garage, and the temperature fluctuates by 20 degrees daily. My beer tastes great. My friends Bubba and JoeBob never detect any off flavors. Works for me."

All of those are potential ways of improving, or at least not infecting, beer. You can also take it further than your current process in some way or another (autoclave?).

But just because X, Y, and Z are good practices which improve beer quality and/or reduce risk, that does not in itself mean that O2 is needed to be added via tank and stone. There may be proof that this method makes superior beer, but those aren't it.
 
I've been hooking a large conical strainer to my primary and dumping the wort through, then moving the strainer to the kettle and dumping the wort back.

I do this a few times and with each pass I collect hops and sediment plus aerate the wort. I then shake my primary before and after pitching to ensure there's plenty of O2.

I've always been at or under my est. FG and the beers taste excellent!
 
The problem with the aeration/stirring suggestions are that you are going to saturate at a lower O2 concentration than needed if you are brewing a high gravity beer because you are limited by atmospheric O2 concentration. The only way to reach a higher O2 (i.e. >8PPM) is with oxygen. Now can you brew great beer without oxygenation? Sure. But if you are trying to get over 8ppm, you can stir til the cows come home, it isn't happening. Especially with higher gravity worts that will not be able to absorb as much oxygen.
 
A wild thought :- My Son has fish tanks in which he has pumps running to keep up the level of oxygen in the water. Yes it is air & not pure oxygen, however, If I was to plumb in a similar system to my fermenter to keep a constant trickle if air into the wort would or should this help the Yeast?
 
It would help the yeast at first , but then ruin your beer as the alcohol develops.

I wanted to chime in about the over saturation of 02. I let my tank run through a stone(0.5 micron) at full blast (tons of air bubbles reaching the surface) for the whole transfer from kettle to fermenter (about 20 minutes) with no noticeable effects. I wouldn't know that it only required under a minute until I read this thread though.
 
The problem with the aeration/stirring suggestions are that you are going to saturate at a lower O2 concentration than needed if you are brewing a high gravity beer because you are limited by atmospheric O2 concentration. The only way to reach a higher O2 (i.e. >8PPM) is with oxygen. Now can you brew great beer without oxygenation? Sure. But if you are trying to get over 8ppm, you can stir til the cows come home, it isn't happening. Especially with higher gravity worts that will not be able to absorb as much oxygen.

Another good reason for building up your yeast to the proper cell count with a properly oxygenated starter or dry yeast rather than growing your yeast in the wort.

Fermentation requires no oxygen.
 
Good minds are at work

Regards Travis

Question:- Is Yeast like Leaf on a tree, it absorbs oxygen & produces CO2? (All living organisms require oxygen?)
 
Another good reason for building up your yeast to the proper cell count with a properly oxygenated starter or dry yeast rather than growing your yeast in the wort.

Fermentation requires no oxygen.

So you build up 800 billion cells in your starter? That's just plain silly.
 
Another good reason for building up your yeast to the proper cell count with a properly oxygenated starter or dry yeast rather than growing your yeast in the wort.

Fermentation requires no oxygen.

I've got news for you. You ARE growing yeast in your wort, even with dry yeast or a big starter. You actually want some of the flavors produced during the growth phase to be in your beer (dependent on style, of course).

I make 4L starters on a stir plate. I also use pure O2. Both contribute to making the best beer possible, imho.
 
I've got news for you. You ARE growing yeast in your wort, even with dry yeast or a big starter. You actually want some of the flavors produced during the growth phase to be in your beer (dependent on style, of course).

I make 4L starters on a stir plate. I also use pure O2. Both contribute to making the best beer possible, imho.

I have no problem with what you're saying, but my response had to do with the fact that it is true that it is very difficult to achieve adequate levels of oxygen in higher gravity wort. Even in lower gravity wort you shouldn't expect that you can pitch a smack pack, hit it with some indeterminate amount of oxygen and expect good results. If you pitch enough healthyyeast you don't need to worry about massive injections of pure O2. You will still want to aerate, but you don't have to be so concerned about getting enough in solution or retaining it long enough for adequate yeast growth.
 
I have no problem with what you're saying, but my response had to do with the fact that it is true that it is very difficult to achieve adequate levels of oxygen in higher gravity wort. Even in lower gravity wort you shouldn't expect that you can pitch a smack pack, hit it with some indeterminate amount of oxygen and expect good results. If you pitch enough healthyyeast you don't need to worry about massive injections of pure O2. You will still want to aerate, but you don't have to be so concerned about getting enough in solution or retaining it long enough for adequate yeast growth.

Can you define "enough healthy yeast"?
 
pabloj13 said:
Can you define "enough healthy yeast"?

Here's an analogy: you hire two crews of experienced carpenters to build a house. One crew is designated the party crew and they drink heavily every night and show up for work hung over but still work although not very efficiently.

The second crew are the straight arrows and show up for work well tested everyday and perform the work but they work more efficiently and get more work done each day.

This is what's meant by growing the appropriate healthy yeast cell count. If you grow the proper pitch rate, pitch into a properly chilled wort, provide proper aeration and ferment at the proper temperature the yeast will do what they are there to do in the most efficient manner possible and make you great beer!

It's all about balance and proper fermentation environment. If over pitch/under pitch/ don't properly aerate, pitch too hot, ferment too hot or cold then you throw the ability of the yeast to do what they do. It's not that they won't work and make you beer, they will, but the final product will not be as good as it should have been. Without yeast you have no beer so make those little dudes as happy as can be:)
 
duboman said:
Here's an analogy: you hire two crews of experienced carpenters to build a house. One crew is designated the party crew and they drink heavily every night and show up for work hung over but still work although not very efficiently.

The second crew are the straight arrows and show up for work well tested everyday and perform the work but they work more efficiently and get more work done each day.

This is what's meant by growing the appropriate healthy yeast cell count. If you grow the proper pitch rate, pitch into a properly chilled wort, provide proper aeration and ferment at the proper temperature the yeast will do what they are there to do in the most efficient manner possible and make you great beer!

It's all about balance and proper fermentation environment. If over pitch/under pitch/ don't properly aerate, pitch too hot, ferment too hot or cold then you throw the ability of the yeast to do what they do. It's not that they won't work and make you beer, they will, but the final product will not be as good as it should have been. Without yeast you have no beer so make those little dudes as happy as can be:)

I know what you and I mean. I am not sure that is what they are referencing.
 
Can you define "enough healthy yeast"?

As far as actual cell counts, it varies on what you're brewing. Check out www.mrmalty.com for pitching guidelines.

There's a very in-depth discussion of this topic here:

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4000

Jamil Zainasheff (sp?), Eric Watson, and others give their advice on starters, aeration, etc. It's a very informative discussion which gives reasons for why there's not a one-size-fits-all answer for everything.

For instance, most of us know that it is possible to overpitch, but even if you pitch the appropriate amount of yeast, if you also over-aerate it may produce a result similar to overpitching.
 
Minky said:
As far as actual cell counts, it varies on what you're brewing. Check out www.mrmalty.com for pitching guidelines.

There's a very in-depth discussion of this topic here:

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4000

Jamil Zainasheff (sp?), Eric Watson, and others give their advice on starters, aeration, etc. It's a very informative discussion which gives reasons for why there's not a one-size-fits-all answer for everything.

For instance, most of us know that it is possible to overpitch, but even if you pitch the appropriate amount of yeast, if you also over-aerate it may produce a result similar to overpitching.

Hey, thanks for the link. Interesting and very informative.
 
travis123 said:
Good minds are at work

Regards Travis

Question:- Is Yeast like Leaf on a tree, it absorbs oxygen & produces CO2? (All living organisms require oxygen?)

No and yes. Yeast is not like a leaf on a tree as leaves take in CO2 and produce oxygen, not the other way around. (So all living organisms do NOT require oxygen.)

Yes, yeast takes in oxygen and sugar to produce CO2 and alcohol.
 
As far as actual cell counts, it varies on what you're brewing. Check out www.mrmalty.com for pitching guidelines.

There's a very in-depth discussion of this topic here:

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4000

Jamil Zainasheff (sp?), Eric Watson, and others give their advice on starters, aeration, etc. It's a very informative discussion which gives reasons for why there's not a one-size-fits-all answer for everything.

For instance, most of us know that it is possible to overpitch, but even if you pitch the appropriate amount of yeast, if you also over-aerate it may produce a result similar to overpitching.

Ok, I was confused by your "not growing new yeast in the wort" comment, which is absolutely not true. I am absolutely for pitching at the right rate. However, Mr Malty and other calculators are assuming a properly aerated wort. It is not sufficient* just to grow the amount of healthy yeast they say and pitch. I'd say the likelihood of OVER-aeration is pretty rare.

*All of these things are an effort to make the best beer possible, by the book. Frankly, if most brewers pitched what Mr Malty recommended and controlled fermentation temps, they would make darned good-great beer every time.
 
Hmm... before I found this thread, I was advised that an easy way to aerate your wort was with a paint mixer attachment on a drill. So I bought one at Home Depot and gave it a good wash - is it safe to use this in my wort, even though it was intended (but never yet used for) mixing paint? Will 2-3 minutes of vigorous mixing with this thing on my drill sufficiently aerate my wort?

Yes, this works but it must be cleaned AND sanitized prior to use.
 
I was wondering how much 02 would get into a 2l starter vortex during growth phase?

This thing looks neat:
p3270381.jpg

http://epiphanybrewing.com/throw-your-stir-plate-away/
 
Ok, I was confused by your "not growing new yeast in the wort" comment, which is absolutely not true. I am absolutely for pitching at the right rate. However, Mr Malty and other calculators are assuming a properly aerated wort. It is not sufficient* just to grow the amount of healthy yeast they say and pitch. I'd say the likelihood of OVER-aeration is pretty rare.

*All of these things are an effort to make the best beer possible, by the book. Frankly, if most brewers pitched what Mr Malty recommended and controlled fermentation temps, they would make darned good-great beer every time.

Yeah, that's what I get for posting in a hurry! You definitely get some yeast reproduction in the wort, but the yeast should be built up and ready to go before it's pitched. In other words, you don't want the entire reproductive phase to take place in the wort. It's especially important in the case of liquid yeasts which need to be roused out of a deep sleep (I don't know the proper term). Not only is it not ready for fermentation, it's not ready yet to reproduce. So you don't want to just pitch a vial or smack pack and hit it with oxygen.

As far as over-aeration, I really don't know the how or why. I'm just repeating what I'm reading about it. Check out the link from my previous post.
 
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