Single Vessel, All Electric, NS, NC Brewery

ScubaSteve said:

Sparging may not be necessary for some of us, but I see nothing wrong with getting a nice rinse at the end. I imagine you'd get quite a bit of sugar out of there with a 170F rinse using fresh water due to the difference in osmolarity.

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I like the idea of being able to do a sparge-on-demand, but do you think you'll really get enough heat out of a RIMS hex to go from @60 degree tap water up to @ 170 instantly?

Just came across this, pretty cool. It appears Bakins has started a movement, I too have consulted with him but my build is a little more simplistic than what you have in mind. Here is my general concept:
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I have a water line coming from my tankless water heater (Thank you Mr. President for the tax credit and sparge source! haha) that will deliver up to 180F water... the bottle neck is I have Chloramine treated water so I can only fill the pot up at a rate of .5 gal/min (max rate of the filter), I was going to use a fry basket from Bayou and line it with SS mesh as well but after consulting with GreenMonti decided a solid walled pot with a perfed bottom would work just as well but allow for sparging should I elect to go that route.
So I got a 75L, 316SS pot off eBay for $70:
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Started drilling 1/16" holes, 5/32" on center.... this is going to take forever but should provide some advantages over larger diameter holes:
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Took off the handles and got some eyes welded on so I can hook this up to my pulley and hoist this pot out:
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Got my stand put togther, just need to mount the burner and paint it with POR-20:
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And besides only using 1.5 pots what I like the best is the small footprint, 20.25x20.25x25 (45" with the 100qt main pot resting on the stand).
Just waiting on my main pot to ship out from the factory to GreenMonti to work his magic on a 1" coupler for me and it should be on!
Similar idea, just not as fancy as what you are thinking of.
-BTW, sorry Wortmonger for stealing the pic of your coated keggle, that thing is just plain awesome-

ScubaSteve said:

Bakins, what's the biggest grain bill you've done in that 62 quart setup? I did the math, and the actual volume of the basket is 9.75 gallons.

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I'd have to look at my notes, but the pot actually does hold right at 15 gallons. The volume of the basket doesn't matter that much. The dead space under the basket isn't "dead" -- it's recirculated through the grain bed and,when the grain is removed/drained, all the mash water (minus absorption) is already in the pot.

bakins said:

I'd have to look at my notes, but the pot actually does hold right at 15 gallons. The volume of the basket doesn't matter that much. The dead space under the basket isn't "dead" -- it's recirculated through the grain bed and,when the grain is removed/drained, all the mash water (minus absorption) is already in the pot.

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I agree with dead space not being actually "dead". However, I respectfully think the volume of the basket DOES matter, because that is a deciding factor in how much grain you can use in your system.

The pots are huge, they can handle the boil; the baskets are significantly smaller, around 2/3 the volume of the pot. If the basket sits at the top of the pot and it is full of grain, but the pot is not full of water, there will be grain in the top of the basket that is not getting mashed. Another reason why I feel it is important to get a good sparge from the top down.

XXguy said:

I like the idea of being able to do a sparge-on-demand, but do you think you'll really get enough heat out of a RIMS hex to go from @60 degree tap water up to @ 170 instantly?

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Oh, hell yeah.....I'll be using a 4500-5500W 220VAC LD element. I would also be able to control the temp of the inlet water (it will come from the tap) so I can cut down on time/power consumption.

Birdgunner said:

I was going to use a fry basket from Bayou and line it with SS mesh as well but after consulting with GreenMonti decided a solid walled pot with a perfed bottom would work just as well but allow for sparging should I elect to go that route. It will probably work fine for mashing/sparging and definitely be sturdier...but I don't think it will work as well for boiling the hops in, which is what I plan on doing. You're going to spend a lot of time drilling those holes, and the pot cost almost as much as a basket with holes AND a handle. I like your style, though....wish I could weld like GreenMonti!

-BTW, sorry Wortmonger for stealing the pic of your coated keggle, that thing is just plain awesome- I totally planned on ripping that off, too! I don't like how the Bayou classic pots have an emblem on them, and the rhino lining is durable, attractive insulation

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See above for comments...

ScubaSteve said:

Bakins, what's the biggest grain bill you've done in that 62 quart setup? I did the math, and the actual volume of the basket is 9.75 gallons.

Something else to consider for reducing deadspace: Use a non Bayou Classic pot and buy a steamer basket separately. The basket should drop all the way in. You could bend the element down slightly and then back to horizontal, and this might buy you a few centimeters....which would amount to a significant volume in a 25 gal pot.....YMMV.

Regarding the RIMS. Yes, the element in the BK can be used exclusively to heat the mash and recirculate. What it can't do is introduce FRESH heated water into the system for sparging. Hence, the RIMS. I would be able to select between water or wort at the inlet of the RIMS, via a 3-way valve (haven't figured my plumbing out yet). I plan on using the BCS-460 so the cost of another element, SSR, etc. is minimal and gives me more flexibility.

Sparging may not be necessary for some of us, but I see nothing wrong with getting a nice rinse at the end. I imagine you'd get quite a bit of sugar out of there with a 170F rinse using fresh water due to the difference in osmolarity.

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Ah, I finally get it. You want to use the RIMS tube to introduce fresh sparge water, rather than recirculate water already in the pot. My plan is to do this with BIAB at full water volume, so I will skip the RIMS tube. Thanks for clarifying.

Bingo. It's a personal choice, definitely not necessary. I still haven't figured how to integrate a long RIMS tube horizontally into my rig and plumb the control valves in an attractive way.

ScubaSteve said:

It will probably work fine for mashing/sparging and definitely be sturdier...but I don't think it will work as well for boiling the hops in, which is what I plan on doing...

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I agree, my plan to address this is to incorporate a SS braid manifold on the main pots discharge. After the mash, hoist out the inner pot, get to a boil and start throwing in the hops...if the braid gets clogged, plan B may be to dump the spent grain out of the pot, rinse and then just put it back in during the boil and add hops accordingly, we'll see how it goes.
As for cost, you're right, when it is all said and done my pots will be only a couple bucks less than the Bayou combo but my twisted logic is, drilling a billion holes offsets not having to deal with cleaning mesh or tearing it will my paddle! ha My original plan was to use the bayou basket and then weld in, rather GreenMonti weld in, some 1/16"x1/8" perfed SS sheet to make a super basket, but then I figured out how expensive perfed sheet is and that brings us where I am today, plus as GM pointed out should I ever want to recirc I'll have a compacted grain bed and concentrated flow to better filter as opposed to water being able to flow out the sides, bottom,etc... this is the theory at least.
Can't wait to see how your build turns out, you have some good ideas and I think you'll be able to compete with the Braumeister! haha

Similar to your SS braid, I used a bazooka tee, and it worked great. It will be fine if you use whole hops.....but it will definitely clog with pellets. I just don't like having to disconnect the entire vessel, turn it upside down, and scrub it out.

I'd LOVE to get some perforated sheet and bend it into a cylinder with a diameter of ~18", but I just don't have the equipment or skill. If you know someone who does, let me know The SS mesh is pretty tuff stuff, how hard do you plan on stirring your mash I guess the low-tech-but-still-classy version would be to get an aluminum (for ease of drilling) pot in the proper dimensions and drill the bottom AND sides....or you could go with SS if you had a drill press, several sharp bits, and lots of time.

In my design, I'm hoping the basket will be the ONLY thing to clean....then I can use a CIP sprayball to rinse out the vessel and lines, heating with the element and recirculating for about 1/2 hour while I put stuff away and put the filled fermenter in place. Hopefully I can also design the system such that it can be drained quickly using only one valve....

ScubaSteve said:

In my design, I'm hoping the basket will be the ONLY thing to clean....then I can use a CIP sprayball to rinse out the vessel and lines, heating with the element and recirculating for about 1/2 hour while I put stuff away and put the filled fermenter in place. Hopefully I can also design the system such that it can be drained quickly using only one valve....

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NOW THAT WOULD BE SLICK!
I imagine it can be done though (I must have a secret Freudian love affair for the Braumeister since I mention it in nearly half of all my posts) because it is only one pot and one valve unless I am missing something in the video.
The quote I got for the perfed SS was a little over $300 and that would only cover the walls of the 80 qt basket, making a tube if you will... that was almost as much as my entire build... hence why I didn't go with it but it would work very well. As for the mesh, what I had in mind and available wasn't all that rigid, sounds like you found something much better.
Hope you can make this thing happen, sounds like a good phase II for me!

So, as I was browsing McMaster, I saw THIS:

McMaster Part#'s: 1471T26, 1471T27

Weld one of these on each side of the pot with a crossbar, and you've got a telescoping crossmember! One concern I had with the hoist was the height. This solves the problem...you just collapse her up when you're done! Still sexy, and this could easily hold the weight of 50+ lbs of wet grain....

I also think you could modify something like this to be a guard for a sight gauge.....

Okaaaaaayyyy....after even more searching on McMaster...I found this:

It's 316 SS screen. Here's the info:
Part# 1667A22
Type 316 Stainless Steel Insect Screening .009" Wire, 24" Width, 7' Length
In stock at $29.24 Each

24 in wide x 7 ft long will line the inside of a 100qt stockpot with a bit left over. Not as durable as some of the other options, but it is 1/4 the price and shouldn't be a problem if you don't beat the basket to hell.....

There's definite possibilities here....PLEASE, someone tell me if I'm missing something, I don't want to get my hopes up

Are you going to sew on the bottom? 20"H x 62"L or so (off top of my head so not 100%) will cover the inside walls of a 100qt pot but then you have a 20" or lil less bottom diameter to cover/ incorporate as well. Not sure how well your seams would hold up?

Wow. Like usual I have little to add. But I just read over this whole thread and it is sweet. As much as I love the sweet three pot set ups (and even the two) I am really tight on space (and money) and something like this would be great. You can make a great looking, very effective, brewing rig that takes up little space and doesn't kill your wallet. I defiantly see myself doing something like this down the line.

Keep up the good ideas. I'll need to steal them later!

cford1 said:

Wow. Like usual I have little to add. But I just read over this whole thread and it is sweet. As much as I love the sweet three pot set ups (and even the two) I am really tight on space (and money) and something like this would be great. You can make a great looking, very effective, brewing rig that takes up little space and doesn't kill your wallet. I defiantly see myself doing something like this down the line.

Keep up the good ideas. I'll need to steal them later!

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You darn Michigan guys!

Birdgunner said:

Are you going to sew on the bottom? 20"H x 62"L or so (off top of my head so not 100%) will cover the inside walls of a 100qt pot but then you have a 20" or lil less bottom diameter to cover/ incorporate as well. Not sure how well your seams would hold up?

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The best I can figure is to lay JB weld in a bead around the top and bottom of the screen, to keep it covering the holes....then do the same with the bottom. You might be able to silver solder the screen to the basket if you prep it well.

ScubaSteve said:

The pots are huge, they can handle the boil; the baskets are significantly smaller, around 2/3 the volume of the pot. If the basket sits at the top of the pot and it is full of grain, but the pot is not full of water, there will be grain in the top of the basket that is not getting mashed. Another reason why I feel it is important to get a good sparge from the top down.

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I got you. But in reality, the mash volume (water + grain) is almost the entire pot and the grain is floating around freely. Or at least that's been my experience.

Just thinking out loud.

A keg should fit in a 55 gallon SS drum. Cut a hole (say 8 inches) put a false bottom in the keg and there you go. Just use the keg handles to lift by. Easy to make easy to clean.

Should be easy to brew bigger batches.

Just gotta find a good source for 55 gallon SS drums, (craigslist)

Also if a keg won't do it, the diameter of a 55 gallon drum is roughly 22.5 inches and get a stainless pot to fit. Cut a hole in the bottom and get Jaybird to make you a FB.

Now... Cut a slit part way around the bottom of the keg where the FB can slide in and out. When you're done position the keg over the trashcan pull the FB out, the grains drop into the trashcan. Even easier to clean, while the wort boils away in the 55 gallon drum.

Easy enough for the three vessel HERMSer to convert over to.

This would definitely work for those making huge batches.

Keg dimensions

Height of keg 23.3 inches
Diameter of keg 16.1–17.15627 inches

Pelican Sky Pots

82 quart 18.75" d X 17" h
102 quart 18.25" d X 21.25" h
122 quart 21.25" d X 19" h


55 gallon drum

23"d X 35" h

So half a keg would be about the same as the largest pelicansky pot. It even looks like a keg would fit in the pots also. Either way would work. I would rather use a keg than the basket. Seems a lot easier to fabricate.

I might have a new project to do. I really like the fact of being able to pull the false bottom out of the slit in the keg and the grains drop out the bottom into a trash can. Then just spray out the keg slip the screen back in and add your hops to the boil, Couldn't take 5 mins to clean.


And with a keg, it would displace more water, driving the height of your water a few more inches higher in the vessel, ensuring more grains get exposed.

A keg would be really difficult to drill all those holes in....that stainless is thick! I think if you plan on doing huge batches, a keg might work, but if you plan on cutting it in half/doing smaller batches, then it's probably easier/more aesthetic to just use a basket with uniform holes and a handle.

take the keg... Cut a 6-7 inch round hole in the bottom for a drain.....put a complete false bottom inside the keg. DONE one hole cut. No holes drilled.

To get real slick.... Cut a slit 3/4 around the bottom of the keg so you can slide the screen in and out of place... The easy dump method... Slide the FB out and the grains fall out the bottom.

I am not talking about cutting a keg in half.. But the 55 gallon drum.

if you mash with a keggle you have a FB... Cut a hole under the FB. When you lift the keg the FB holds the grains... The wort drains out the hole into the 55 gallon/pot.

Okay....so I've been toying with Sketchup, and I'm starting to get the hang of it. It is an awesome program for our hobby...a picture speaks a thousand words, so here's a few:







The uprights will be collapsible and the whole winch can be dropped down for storage or a lower profile if necessary. Overall, the rig should be about ~6ft tall and collapse down to ~4 ft. It will be 2 feet wide and ~2-3 ft deep.

I'm still figuring out the plumbing, but it will probably incorporate a 20 gallon kettle with 3/4" bottom drain, and a little giant pump.

Any thoughts?

I've seen B-K's 120VAC countertop style rigs, and though I still want to be able to do 10gal batches, I think this could be scaled down very easily and cost a lot less $$$. It definitely has my wheels turning.

Looks awesome. Great ninja. How tall is he? He looks like he is 6' 6", you must be tall.

Sweet

Ha, I'm 6' but a ninja can blend into any environment I had issues scaling the figure...the rig itself is right at 5'...of course there will be some variance in real life due to casters, plumbing requirements, etc. I figure it's pretty self explanatory, still a work in progress. My concept I'm building this rig around is to be able to do EVERYTHING the bigger rigs can do, but with a single vessel and minimum cleanup.

Steve,
That is pretty sweet. I was compiling my parts to do a JKarp style countertop system (but with a toolbox pump + controller)...and then stumbled onto this thread. I really like this idea. However, I am one of those who only have 120V, and really, I only want/need to do 5 gal (or less) batches...because I like variety, but am the only beer drinker in the house.

I am wondering, what size kettle/basket combo do you think would work best for 5 gal batches? The basket in the 62 qt. would have plenty of room for any gravity beer, but my concern would be that for smaller gravity brews, the grain might not go low enough in the kettle to mash properly. On the other hand, the basket that comes with the 44 qt. might not be large enough for bigger beers.

Maybe I should consider adding a second 2000W element, doing 8 gal batches, no chill, split into 5 gal Winpaks, ferment one, and save the other for a few months? Doing this three or four times would give me a nice variety rotation. Hmmmm.

Sorry for going a little OT there. Thanks for the ideas!

Not OT at all....I've been thinking along the same lines. You could essentially do what I describe above, only smaller. I'm not sure what pot would be best....Bakins mentioned using a similar system...maybe he might comment on his experience. My calculations have the basket in the 62 qt Bayou Classic at 9.75 gallons. That gives you some flexibility. You'd have a few inches dead space at the bottom with any size pot, but you'd need it for the element anyway. I guess you could go with the 44qt basket and add DME for the biggest of beers. I think your limiting factor is the 120VAC, as you won't be able to boil more than ~4 gallons....but I'm thinking 4 gallons might be perfect for fermenting in a corny and using a spunding valve to self carbonate, then transfer under pressure.

Lots of ways to go about this. You could go small and brew more frequently with available 120VAC (cleanup MUST be simple or this will become a chore), or you can go bigger but you need 220VAC. I have 220 for my stove and in my laundry room, so I'm thinking about going big with an 80-100qt pot. From now on, I just can't move into a house that doesn't have 220

I really like this idea and have been perusing the net looking at different parts. I especially like the bottom dump valve idea but am wondering how you are going to install it? It would be nice to have it a weldless fitting (since I don't weld), but that would mean you would need to somehow make the bottom of the BK concave so that it would drain as much of the wort as possible.

Any thoughts?

Just a thought but you could use a Sanke keg, turn it upside-down, and attach a 2" tri-clover fitting to it for the dump valve. If you like the idea of using a keggle that is.

You could go the sankey route, or you could silver solder a half coupling into the bottom. I plan to do the latter. You want it flush with the bottom, and a weldless fitting will stick up a bit. One concern I have is with the laminated bottom of the pot, which has an aluminum core....I think the silver solder should stick to the stainless on either side of the bottom, but I'm not sure. Alternatively, you could use JB weld and just wipe the edges for a clean install. That stuff will withstand the temps, and should be leak free as long as you're not beating the plumbing up.

wyzazz said:

Just a thought but you could use a Sanke keg, turn it upside-down, and attach a 2" tri-clover fitting to it for the dump valve. If you like the idea of using a keggle that is.

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I have 3 sankes, and my first instinct was to use what I already have, but I don't know that there is a big enough basket that will fit down there. All the 60qt ones are ~17inches wide, while a keg has a diameter of 15-16 inches. You'd have to custom fab something, or use a bag....which will require a bit more maintenance than a solid metal basket.

ScubaSteve said:

I have 3 sankes, and my first instinct was to use what I already have, but I don't know that there is a big enough basket that will fit down there. All the 60qt ones are ~17inches wide, while a keg has a diameter of 15-16 inches. You'd have to custom fab something, or use a bag....which will require a bit more maintenance than a solid metal basket.

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Maybe just fab up a frame for the basket and then use the Swiss Voile fabric or a SS Screen around that frame? It would be like the steamer basket only slightly less solid and get slightly more flow through the basket. Maybe even make it out of some sort of small rigid SS tubing.

I figure you'd have to do something like this, as I haven't seen any "narrow" baskets. They're all short and fat, like the pots. You could probably score a turkey fryer pot for cheap and drill it out.....I'm pretty sure they will fit down in a keg. You could also look at copper or SS sheet, and fab a basket out of that.....

EDIT: Looks like a 62 qt bayou classic basket is 14" in diameter and should fit inside a keg if the top is cut wide enough. The basket is somewhere around 10 gallons in volume.

I guess there's a million and a half ways to approach this, none of them are right or wrong.

I'm planning on making a single vessel system based on your ideas, so when I gather the parts I'll report back and start a thread to outline my progress.

Hey all- Check this place out: http://www.anysizebasket.com/Default.aspx

The baskets are a little pricey (mine was ~$140 and fit down in a keg, 14"x18") , but they're quality. You can get them custom made to your dimensions in 304 SS.

I already have kegs and large pots, so I would actually save money from having to go out and buy a whole new vessel with a basket, mesh, etc..

Nice! If you order let me know how you like it!

You guys have seen this, right?

Yup, lots of dough for that one though.

Check this out. Dont know how much theyd cost though.

http://www.eysters.com/baskets.html