Bad flavor in last 3 AG beers

Hello all,

I've been doing AG for about 6 batches now. My first 3 turned out fantastic - far better than the 3 years of extract batches I'd done - and I was sure I had things at least somewhat dialed in. I always hit my initial temp of 152F dead on, let it sit for an hour, and then pour in a constant supply of water at 175F at about the same rate it drains. I usually use about 5-6 gallons of water or there abouts. My efficiency was very high for all three and all was well.

Anyway, the next three batches have had this really REALLY distinct off flavor. I've noticed the hops aroma also disappears as it sits in the carboy for more than about a week (these are IPAs or IIPAs). The flavor only hits you after you have taken a swallow, and then it's on the sides of your mouth with a weird 'old shoe', hot-stale flavor and then gives you kind of a headache in the middle of your forehead (at least for me.) It leaves you feeling a bit car sick and 'bleh.' Hard to explain. Mouth is also slightly puckered, which left me wondering about astringency, except I thought my sparging technique was good and the other flavor doesn't seem like 'astringency' although I'm no expert. I also thought this might just be bitterness from the 70+ IBUs I was expecting.

Anyway, this is my 3rd batch this way. I've become a total nut for sanitization after the first two bad batches, using iodine, a full rinse, and then a soak for everything (even freezer and cabinets etc) with san star. I checked my tap water pH and I'm at 8.2, which seems reasonable. I'm at a total loss and not really feeling qualified to brew any more until I have some sort of a logic to move ahead with. I don't think it's oxidization since it's just after a week in the primary and I haven't changed my method of transfering from pot to carboy (pour it in with a funnel, let it settle, pour in yeast and shake and then leave it be....the way I've been doing it 3 years)

Anyway, thanks for any help!

Dan

is it like a band aid flavour? can you smell it a little in the beer after the first tast? phenoles

I am by no means a water chemistry expert, but 8.2 seems a little high to me. If what you are tasting is astrigency, I would guess this is your culprit. Next time you brew...test the pH of your mash. I would start by getting some reverse osmosis or distilled water and using it 50:50 with your tap water. I do this on all of my light colored beers and no longer have trouble with astrigency. Adding a dash of acidulated malt can also help get the pH of the mash down to where it needs to be, which is below 6

I wonder if your water supply changed, and the water company is using chloramines in the water now.

I'd try using 100% bottled reverse osmosis water for the next batch, with a teaspoon of calcium chloride (and maybe gypsum if you're making an IPA) and not using the tap water to see if that fixes it. If it does, you know it's the water. If it doesn't, you know it is something else.

Thanks for the replies!

It's not really a band-aid taste. It's more like a stale, taste...it actually GIVES you a headache to taste it. Also I don't rinse with bleach so unless you can get phenols other ways I don't think that's it.

So it seems like maybe the safest way from now on is to just use RO water from now on so I don't have to worry about the city. So I will do some googling to figure out how much calcium chloride and gypsum to add. Do you add them to your initial 5 gallons of water you soak the grains in (strike water?)?

The only thing that changed between the 'good' AG batches I did first and the 'bad' ones I've just done is that the first 3 ones had like 18 lb of grain each. These latest ones are more like 11-12. Would there be something in my sparging method that would be brought out by the lower quantity of grain?

Thanks everybody for your replies - I've got a 4th batch I made this weekend using same water\techniques, so I'm guessing it's bad to. I was convinced it was an infection due to the bad taste but I cleaned everything so thoroughly that would almost be incomprehensible. 4 bad batches is a very sad thing.

Dan

I thought that for posterity I'll post my discoveries here as I find them. I've been doing a ton of digging and just had a long conversation with my water department guy. He was very helpful and is going to give me a breakdown per city well of everything in the water.

I also found a document issued Jan 1, 2012 by the state of Idaho about our city water. One of the biggest things was that we add lots of chlorine and we have 'very large' quantities of ammonia. This forms mono, di, or trichloramine. So yes, it's looking like maybe that's the issue? I'm still not totally clear on why this affects my brews now. He said they randomly turn on and off Well 2 which has the most ammonia, so perhaps I've been getting blasted with that. Or maybe with smaller batches of grain chloramine matters more? As I mentioned above, my DIPA's with 16lb of grain were goin pretty good, it's the 11-12lb batches lately that sucked. It's also possible I'm tasting disolved grain husks because my sparge method is flawed and I'm getting the mash tun above 172....I'll be watching my mash temp from now on (I don't have a ph meter or strips...my dad is gonna donate one soon :-D ) I suspect it's not astringency though since I don't get any major 'mouth pucker', just an awful after taste.

Anyway, now that I've discovered I probably have di or trichloramine in my water, I found out that my local grocery store dispenses RO water for 25 cents a gallon! Not bad, so I think I maybe even just do that for the sake of better water (city water smells and tastes terrible and lingers in your mouth). As far as profile, I'll follow Yooper's advice of 1tsp gyp 1tsp calcium chloride and go from there. I think Burton on Trent is not ideal for my big-ish, American-ish IPAs so my ideal profile will be fun to figure out.

If my next batch turns out less like an old shoe that smacks you in the forehead and mouth I will post.

Cheers!

Dan

This is a very helpful tool when you're trying to target water. You can also plug in your previous grain totals vs. your new ones to see how it effects your water/PH.
Hope it winds up being an easy fix for you.

http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

Thanks! I'll be curious how RO affects my efficiency, too. It seems like people always talk about efficiency going down with more pure h2o. I plan on brewing Thursday so we'll see.

How long does it take you to sparge? Maybe try a batch sparge if water change doesnt fix the issue. Just spit balling, I haven't been AG brewing long myself so if Im way off here let me know.

Yeah that's my next step if this doesn't work. My current method of 'sparging' right now is to ladle in 175F water from a pot on the stove that's on low. I do it in units of about 4-6 cups at a time with a few minutes in between ladles. I know this is probably flawed but I can't IMAGINE it's making my beer taste so awful. Maybe it is tho.

EDIT: Oh and it takes me a long time to sparge. I let it out at a trickle. I'll keep track this time...maybe I'm sparging too slow?

danio said:

Yeah that's my next step if this doesn't work. My current method of 'sparging' right now is to ladle in 175F water from a pot on the stove that's on low. I do it in units of about 4-6 cups at a time with a few minutes in between ladles. I know this is probably flawed but I can't IMAGINE it's making my beer taste so awful. Maybe it is tho.

EDIT: Oh and it takes me a long time to sparge. I let it out at a trickle. I'll keep track this time...maybe I'm sparging too slow?

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That's what I'm wondering. If you run the sparge really long you can pull some of the wrong stuff out of the grain. If you were going bigger on the alcohol in the first few batches maybe that was covering this up. I batch sparge. 3-4 gallons in one shot, stir it up and let it sit for about 10 mins, reset the grain bed and run off. It takes about 15 mins total.

city water smells and tastes terrible and lingers in your mouth

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I think you just didn't trust your instincts. If your water tastes bad out of the tap, don't use it to make anything! I hope your next batch comes out better.

Has your fermentation been consistent? I have read excessive fusel alcohol can cause headaches.

Fermentation is usually slow to start since I've been chilling the wort to 72F or so. Then I set my freezer to 65 (with thermometer attached to carboy with insulation) and walk away. In that period of time it's dropping in temp but fermentation is also starting slowly.

I do notice it's not as much in the aroma, and it diminishes at cooler temps. It's VERY noticeable at room temp.

I may try batch sparging. I didn't know it was so simple. How hot is the sparge water usually? Is there a water to grain ratio? Is it still 1.25?

Edit: Yeah I will definately switch water even if that's not the problem. I never thought about how gross mine is

Dan

This happened to me on my first 2 AG batches too. The beer almost tasted like it had solvent in it and gave me a headache right after drinking it. I've since come to know this a phenols and can attribute it to uncontrolled fermentation temps and probably underpitching. We fermented those first 2 batches in a 68 degree room after pitching around 72. I've heard the flavor described as nail polish remover too. Whatever you want to call it it's just down right nasty and I hate to report that after 8 months in bottles it still isn't gone.

Before you go too crazy working on your water profile you might consider going to ferm chamber or swamp cooler route and try to keep your beer under 65 while it ferments. 68 in the room turns into 75 in the carboy real fast.

Anyway, I built a fermentation chamber after the phenol infested beers and have fermented every beer since below 66 degrees with no off flavors and no more phenols.

Good luck.

yup, definitely sounds like a high (or fluctuating) fermentation temp is to blame.

One last thought - I've been draining my wort from my mash tun into my pot without a hose. I just realized that this could cause oxidation due to the temperature. It's about a 2' drop so maybe that's it.

Either way, I'm gonna just improve my technique\ingredients in every possible way for my next brew. I will also do a batch sparge for simplicity.

I don't know if high temps is it...my 65F reading is from my fermometer, not the room. And I'm actually fermenting inside a freezer with a johnson thermostat control (taped to the carboy...it also reads 65F.) I mean it could be, it's just it's US-05 and my typical ferm temps haven't changed for years.

Anyway, thanks again everyone!

Dan

I would suggest plain recipe(even the same a your previous batch to compare), 100% bottle/ro water (with nothing added now) and batch sparge like you said. Limit the variables and hit temps
good luck

Add

danio said:

One last thought - I've been draining my wort from my mash tun into my pot without a hose. I just realized that this could cause oxidation due to the temperature. It's about a 2' drop so maybe that's it.

Either way, I'm gonna just improve my technique\ingredients in every possible way for my next brew. I will also do a batch sparge for simplicity.

I don't know if high temps is it...my 65F reading is from my fermometer, not the room. And I'm actually fermenting inside a freezer with a johnson thermostat control (taped to the carboy...it also reads 65F.) I mean it could be, it's just it's US-05 and my typical ferm temps haven't changed for years.

Anyway, thanks again everyone!

Dan

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Danio, if you're talking about draining wort from mash tun to boil pot don't fret too much about that. You've got the boil ahead of you.

Use RO water and don't forget to do the additions Yooper suggested. If you don't treat the RO water your mash efficiency will suffer. Keep your RO water additions simple.

Cheers

I use the BREW365 mash calculation. Gives me volumes temps for everything it works really well. I heat my sparge water to 170. I mash at 1.33 and then follow what the calculator tells me for my sparge water. Good luck, I think it will make your life a whole lot easier.

I use 365 as well and its dead on every time. Huge time saver.

jaynik said:

I think you just didn't trust your instincts. If your water tastes bad out of the tap, don't use it to make anything! I hope your next batch comes out better.

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What he said.

Instead of RO water, could he use an inline charcoal filter to remove some of those di/tri Cl's?

Also, those chlorides will also increase your perceive bitterness in the IPAs.

Thanks everyone! I'll follow your advice kcpup.

A local brewery offered to taste my beer to help troubleshoot too, so I'll bring that to them today to get a bit more feedback. It'll be very interesting to hear what he says.

My recipe for today is a slight modification of Dude's SN Celebration Ale. It's all I could find ingredients for that was near an IPA similar to what I just did. Excited about batch spargine and RO water.

Dan

let us know what the brewery says. good luck!

I must be highly sensitized to this flavor because I think it's AWFUL but the brewer didn't detect it at first. After he acclimatized to the hops he said 'ahhh yeah, that is a very chemical taste...yuck.' His worker noticed it too. He suggested maybe my cleanser (san star). Maybe it is not liking my 8.3Ph water with 180ppm alkaline. Anyway, I wonder if Chloramine would give a chemical taste too?

I got 15 gallons of RO water and my ingredients. I'm going to rinse after san star (I know it's no rinse, but still) and do my batch sparge. Figured I'd keep you all updated.

P.S. Breweries are awesome :-D

Dan

Sounds good. Let us know how it goes.

Just an update:

Brewed my SN Celebration Ale last night. Used RO water with 1tsp gyp 1tsp CaCl per 5 gallons of water. The only thing that went wrong was I used beersmith and 365's calculators (same predictions roughly) - they were dead on for water volume but they said add 4.5 gal @ 164F to hit 152F. Well I did and ended up mashing at 148-149 :-( I used to use the rule of thumb 'go 20F over your target' and I've always hit my temp, so I may go back to some iteration of that even though it doesn't account for quantity of grain. I'm hoping it's not too dry. Anyway, batch sparging is GREAT so thanks for the recommendation on that!

Anyway, I think my efficiency was around 70%...ended up with post boil gravity of 1.066, right on target! Checked Mash ph...as far as I can tell I was around 5-6ph, so that's good. Getting used to those strips.

Anyway, pitched US-05 @ 70F and put in temp controlled freezer and set it to 65F. This morning it's already started and stick-on says its at @ 65F. Will post in a week and a half or so!

As a side note, I made coffee with my RO water and it's significantly better than with tap. I was getting a metallic flavor from my morning Joe previously.

Thanks all,

Dan

Yup breweries are great resources! sounds like you're getting closer to solving the problem. I never would have suspected star-san but I've always wondered about all that foam in the carboy being a good thing or not.
hope this batch turns out!

Yeah - I tasted star san and water and I didn't get the same flavor as I get in the beer, but maybe it's a reaction with my 8.3ph water, starsan and beer. Who knows - I'm beginning to fear the foam. I gave my stuff a bit of a rinse this time through to get rid of some of the residue.

8.3Ph + 188ppm alkaline + 175F = a bucket of tannin.

Hehe, well if that's what I'm tasting it's not the same as tannins in wine. It's more chemical. But it could easily be tannins and they are just different then I expect them to be.

Yea with an alkalinity of 180ppm and 8.3 pH, and a relatively light beer like an ipa, I think your mash pH is going to be over 6. Then with all that alkalinity, and a long sparge, your pH is gonna go way up.

See if your water dept will give you a brewing water report, check out ex waterr, and dilute with RO.

Hello all! I thought I'd post an update. It's been 6 days in the primary now. I know that's not that long, but fermentation had been finished for a day or so and I was curious about gravity\initial taste. Gravity is at 1.018...pretty high, considering I mashed at 149. Beersmith predicted 1.014, so it's got a bit more to do, I bet, or my thermometer measured low and the center of the mash was a higher F.

Anyway, the taste is basically gone. My OCD side tells me its still there baaarrreeeelllllyyy. It's a weird stale flavor. But it's presence might be my imagination. It's 100x better than it was. The interesting thing is I actually get that taste from commercial beers once and a while. I wonder if what I was tasting was just a huge accentuation of a 'not necessarily bad' flavor (yeast, minor astringency, whatever) due to bad water\ph, whatever.

There may be a slight astringency feel, too. It's a little powdery on the tongue. That would be surprising though, since I built up my own water and mashed\sparged at fairly low temps. Again, these are super early days.

Anyway, I'll give this more time in the primary and then dry hop the sucker. After that it's into the keg. I'll be curious how it goes.

Thanks all for all the helpful comments, etc!

Dan

EDIT: yeah, after finishing the whole sample, my tongue was super puckered. I wonder if I've swapped one problem for another. Grrrr!

EDIT #2: Could powdery, tongue puckering be from too much gypsum or calcium chloride? I did 1tsp per 5 gal

Not sure if its what you're tasting, but I used to get an astringent/bitterish/stale aftertaste and narrowed it down to a ph problem. I now add 1 tbsp of calcium chloride to my mash and also add 1 to 1.5 tbsps of lactic acid to my sparge water. The flavor has disappeared since. Sometimes I add gypsum to the mash also , depending on the recipe.

Ok - I can give that a try. So you are talking tablespoons for both Calcium Ch. and Lactic Acid? Just wanted to double check before I brew agian - I've been workin in teaspoons.

Thanks for the feedback!

Dan

You can try racking to secondary if you beer finished a few points too high in gravity. Oftentimes the slight disturbance is enough to give them one last boost. You can also increase the temperature some to clean up the last few points.

danio said:

Ok - I can give that a try. So you are talking tablespoons for both Calcium Ch. and Lactic Acid? Just wanted to double check before I brew agian - I've been workin in teaspoons.

Thanks for the feedback!

Dan

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Had to check the logbook for this one. I use teaspoons for the calcium chloride and gypsum and tablespoons for the lactic acid. Sorry for the confusion.

Great! Thanks for checking, that lines up more with what I was thinking of doing.

I've been pouring over the stickies in the Brewing Science thread trying to figure out my next attempt. Is there a definitive reason\scenario to add lactic acid to water pre-heating, during mash or to sparge water? Could you add it to the mash right after adding your strike and adjust pH in realtime?