DMS...it's freaking DMS, right?

Two very similar grain bills...two very similar tastes. Before, I have described it as "a musty, dirty sock/feet, maybe sulfery, etc." kind of a thing. I was listening to Basic Brewing this morning and Chris Colby of BYO was talking about the need to boil long & hard with Pilsener malt to eradicate DMS. Biermuncher indicated the same thing in a post the other day. The two recipes were:

Biermuncher's Centennial Blonde:

81% Pale Malt (2-row) (2.0 SRM)
7% Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)
6% Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM)
6% Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM)

My own recipe:

79% Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
8% Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM)
13% Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM)

People describe the taste as "cooked corn or cabbage". I can see that. I am VERY sensitive to DMS (if that is indeed what I am tasting)...so much so that I dumped the Centennial Blonde.

IS THIS DMS?...NO, IT'S NOT...IT'S YEAST. SEE MY LATEST POST.

Sure you are just not sensitive to a certain type of hops? What hops did you use in both batches? I find Centennial to give a veggie flavor I dislike if not combined with something else - and I did get that taste when I brewed BierMuncher's Centennial Blonde. I sure as hell never dumped it though - it was my taste buds, not the recipe, that had the issue.

Man you dump more beer than I change my underwear, don't you EVER try to see if you are not just drinking green beer, by letting some time go by to see if the off flavors actually condition out? Believe it or not, you haven't been brewing all that long, so SOME of the thousands of gallons you have brewed since OCT, may ACTUALLY just be coming online as drinkable to the rest of us brewers.

Sometimes green beer actually mimics those flavors on the off flavor charts, the only difference it, they go away with time.

And as to whether or not it IS DMS, we can't really tell what you're tasting without actually tasting it, we're good but not that good. Everyone's palate is different, and taste is subjective.

But generally speaking if there's pilsner in the grainbill, then I boil for 90 minutes uncovered.

Revvy said:

...don't you EVER try to see if you are not just drinking green beer...

...But generally speaking if there's pilsner in the grainbill, then I boil for 90 minutes uncovered.

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Yeah. As we have already discussed, I have been way too impatient with my brews. I am now going to follow the minimum 3 week primary method followed by a 1 week cold crash.

My question regarding the pilsner is, what is pilsner malt? Is it specifically grains called "Pilsner" or does it apply to the other pale grains. For instance, my LHBS carries "Rahr 2-Row", "Muntons Pale Malt", and "Weyerman Pilsner". These are all 2-row malts, but does the same DMS standard apply to all?

Do you factor dumped batches into your cost/pint?

brrman said:

Sure you are just not sensitive to a certain type of hops? What hops did you use in both batches? I find Centennial to give a veggie flavor I dislike if not combined with something else - and I did get that taste when I brewed BierMuncher's Centennial Blonde. I sure as hell never dumped it though - it was my taste buds, not the recipe, that had the issue.

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0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [7.50 %] (60 min)
1.00 oz Cascade [7.50 %] (15 min)
0.25 oz Amarillo Gold [7.50 %] (10 min)
0.25 oz Cascade [7.50 %] (10 min)
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [7.50 %] (5 min)
0.50 oz Cascade [7.50 %] (5 min)

I know Centennial is referred to as "super cascade", but I really don't think it's the hops...but who knows. Like Revvy said, it may just be green. However, I did keep BM's Centennial Blond kegged for about a month before dumping it...the flavor didn't improve (as far as the funky aftertaste went).

Doc Robinson said:

Yeah. As we have already discussed, I have been way too impatient with my brews. I am now going to follow the minimum 3 week primary method followed by a 1 week cold crash.

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But you leave out the most important part Keg/bottle conditioning, THAT's where we get rid of green beer tastes, not in the fermenters. Many keggers don't even touch their kegs for the same length of time bottlers end up waiting, it's all about the marrying of flavors.

Didja ever read these?

Revvy's Blog, Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/ne...virtue-time-heals-all-things-even-beer-73254/



Definition of pilsner;

Pilsner malt is a base malt that can be made from 2 or 6 row malt. It gets its characteristics from the drying and curing steps in the malting process, where in the kiln the temperatures are kept lower in comparison to other malts’ productions. The kiln is also well ventilated in Pilsner malt production so it dries out quickly. The malt is cured at lower temperatures too.

What is produced is a very light-colored, highly-modified malt with excellent glucan and protein levels.

Pilsner malt seems to be produced in a number of different countries including Germany, Belgium, The UK, and the US. Without doing an experiment, my guess is that each area produces something that is similar but a little bit different…probably not much different though.

It be used at up to 100% of total grist since its diastatic power tends to be over 100° Lintner (which is the measure of the malt’s ability to break down starch to sugar)

Some suggest a protein rest during the mashing of this malt, but others state that it should produce an excellent wort with a single infusion procedure.

It is recommended to boil your wort for 90 minutes when using Pilsner malt. If your grist has over 50% Pilsner malt in it, then you should plan for a longer boil to combat the production of DMS. DMS is Dimethyl Sulfide and it produces a cooked vegetable/corn aroma in your beer. Not good. Boil for 90 minutes and cool your wort down quickly to stave off DMS as much as possible.

More stats:

Flavor: Ferments clean, some grainy notes

Color:1.4 to 1.9° lovibond

Body: Good body and mouthfeel

Use: All lagers, but especially pilsners. Belgian beers work too.

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Doc Robinson said:

My question regarding the pilsner is, what is pilsner malt? Is it specifically grains called "Pilsner" or does it apply to the other pale grains. For instance, my LHBS carries "Rahr 2-Row", "Muntons Pale Malt", and "Weyerman Pilsner". These are all 2-row malts, but does the same DMS standard apply to all?

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Has to do with the malt kilning and SMM reductions. SMM is the pre-cursor to DMS.

Revvy said:

But you leave out the most important part Keg/bottle conditioning, THAT's where we get rid of green beer tastes, not in the fermenters. Many keggers don't even touch their kegs for the same length of time bottlers end up waiting, it's all about the marrying of flavors.

Didja ever read these?

Revvy's Blog, Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/ne...virtue-time-heals-all-things-even-beer-73254/



Definition of pilsner;

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Yeah...I've read 'em. They are fantastic. Well...I guess I'll factor in keg conditioning into my timeline as well. Instead of force carbing, I'm gonna switch to the "set it and forget it method". I hear that takes 2 to 3 weeks to get the keg up to proper carb volumes. During that time, I will get the added benefit of extra conditioning time. I have no doubt that it will have a huge impact on the quality of my brews.

I am not one to ride the "never dump" train but, more time is definitely needed before you decide. I wait a year at most before dumping anything.

DMS in those grain bills? Cmon...

You shouldnt have enough SMM in there to really cause a problem, you arent even using Pils!

Pils is a MUCH different beast than Pale malt, they do not even compare when it comes to kilning temps and SMM.

I have a VERY hard time beleiving that you have a DMS problem, unless you boil and chill withyour lid on.

The Pol said:

DMS in those grain bills? Cmon...

I have a VERY hard time beleiving that you have a DMS problem, unless you boil and chill withyour lid on.

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Way to come off sounding like a total prick. I am new at this and am trying to figure out what it might be. The flavor description sounded like it might describe what I am tasting. I wasn't arguing, I was asking.

However, based on your conclusion as well, it seems like I just need to give my beer time to condition...forever if you will...which I have summed up in an illustration.

I complete understand the whole "forever" concept, but it really does pay off. The Winter Porter I made is living proof of that. Yes, I bottle, so it's a bit different than kegging, but the patience factor is still the same.

The Porters I opened over the weekend (for the awful Eagles-Cowboys game) were 5 weeks in the bottle, and tasted MUCH better than the one I opened at the 2 week mark to test. There was nothing bad about the 2 week bottle, but the flavors are definitely starting to meld wonderfully the longer they sit.

I'm not a very patient person, but I want to make good beer, so I've really pushed my limits. It's really hard to think about it, but I'm proud that it's been 8+ weeks since I brewed the batch, and I still have 42 bottles to go!

There are numerous reasons that a brew can taste funky.

From bad water chemistry, to poor sanitation, to chemical leeching from using plastics that are not rated for certain temps. to poor yeast health to poor aeration to poor fermentation temp. control.

Some issues can become better over time, some will never age out.

If this becomes a chronic problem, there is some thing in the system or the process itself that is "ruining" your beer.

Sorry I came off sounding like a "prick", you cannot hear my tone, so you are taking offense when there is none to take. My post was more of a "surprised we got to page 2 of responses without this point coming up".

FWIW, there are guys here that brew Pils based beers, boil for 60 minutes only and NO CHILL thier wort, and still no DMS.

The comment on boiling and chilling with the lid on... is, well... because it HAS been done, and in those cases you CAN have DMS with a 2-row based grain bill. Youd be amazed at what people do.

SMM is a function of barley variety, malt color and malting method, mostly color though.

A lot of DMS can be evolved during an ale fermentation vs a lager fermentation, this is a bigger factor than anything (and is why commercial ales will never have DMS, its possible a homebrewer could do something crazy enough to get some but I doubt you did).

In Principles of Brewing Science George Fix demonstrates that with an ale malt, around 3 L, and with a 60 minute boil that even if all of the SMM remaining at the end of the boil is converted to DMS but not driven off during chilling (eg if it takes you forever to chill), the remaining DMS will be reduced below threshold by an ale fermentation.

I would look elsewhere. There are a lot of sources of sulphur type flavors, DMS is one.

Yeast and bacteria can produce sulphur, did these beers have anything in common yeast-wise?

Does your wort touch copper at any point? If so rule out H2S in the pre-fermentation wort.

Doc Robinson said:

However, based on your conclusion as well, it seems like I just need to give my beer time to condition...forever if you will...which I have summed up in an illustration.

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And, by the way, forever is alot further from week 7 than is depicted in your chart.

Doc Robinson said:

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I dunno bro, THIS seems awfully pricky to me, NOT the Pol's comment.

I mean you asked US if it's DMS, and a few of us are doubtful that it is, and me knowing your passion, yet your admitted proclivity for impatience. You've admitted to me that you DON'T wait, and even dumping the cream, leads me to believe that you are simply dumping green unconditioned beer.

Some beers take time to come into their own, it's that simple. And 90% of the time a new brewer, and you are a new brewer, buddy, misdiagnose green beer for a myriad of false problems.

You have been on here long enough to see it dude.

I had a beer that took six months to stop tasting like rocket fuel, and it came out really nice. That bubblegum beer in the "never dump thread" turned out to be one of the best beers I have ever made.

But it had to go through a journey to get there.....

1 month is not forever, neither is 6 or like gila said, a year.

You do brew enough that a beer SHOULD be able to be held in your pipeline long enough to be 8 weeks from grain to glass, 4 in primary (or 2 primary and 2 seondary) and another 4 to condition.

You should have enough beers at different levels of the brewing process at this rate (if you didn't quit dumping any) to not have a pipeline gap, and still have a chance to be excellent beer.

Don't get pissed off at us trying to help you. We simply have enough experience to see what the true problem may be, not what YOU think it is.

The thing about off flavors is that you HAVE to give sufficient time too see whether it is truly an off flavor, or really is a green one.

And honestly that window to me is a about 6-8 weeks from kegging or bottling day....Thats going to give plenty of time for the beer to work out anything it could possibly do on it's own. And the flavors to marry.

If it is gone or lessend then more than likely the beer was green. If it is the same (and it's not a 1.090 barely wine) THEN you can begin to figure out what you did from that batch so you don't repeat it again in the future.

Based on your grain bill and description of the flavor, I would have to agree it is probably not DMS. DMS is unmistakably corn. Once you smell, there is no question, it is like opening a can of corn.

Really, if you think the beer is properly conditioned, you could try to find some other homebrewers in your area that would be willing to give it a taste. Sometimes off flavors can be really hard to describe until one person tastes it and says "tastes like ____" and that is a perfect descriptor you couldn't think of.

The Pol said:

Sorry I came off like a "prick", you cannot hear my tone, so you are taking offense when there is none to take.

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Naw dude...I took no offense at all, or to any electronic communication for that matter, as it is impossible to decipher tone. I was just making a petty observation. I very much appreciate your input.

In order:

Bad water chemistry: I have this on lock...called the chemist, cut the tap water with distilled, use software for additions, etc.

Poor sanitation: I am a perfectionist to a fault in this department

Plastics that are not rated for certain temps: All my tubing is silicone rated to 300+...I'm assuming my Igloo Ice Cube can handle 150 mash temps.

Poor yeast health: Not sure, but everything I have used so far is smack pack, vial, or Notty. I just stated yeast washing but haven't used washed yeast in a brew yet.

Poor aeration: Is it Biermuncher who says he doesn't even worry about this because he pitches a TON of yeast...I subscribe to that line of thinking. However, I do shake the hell out of the carboy until I have a 7 inch layer of froth before and after pitching.

Poor fermentation temp. control: I use a chest freezer with a Ranco controller

Revvy said:

I dunno bro, THIS seems awfully pricky to me, NOT the Pol's comment.

Don't get pissed off at us trying to help you.

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I'm not pissed off. See my response above. A little touch today Rev?

Weezknight said:

I complete understand the whole "forever" concept, but it really does pay off. The Winter Porter I made is living proof of that. Yes, I bottle, so it's a bit different than kegging, but the patience factor is still the same.

The Porters I opened over the weekend (for the awful Eagles-Cowboys game) were 5 weeks in the bottle, and tasted MUCH better than the one I opened at the 2 week mark to test. There was nothing bad about the 2 week bottle, but the flavors are definitely starting to meld wonderfully the longer they sit.

I'm not a very patient person, but I want to make good beer, so I've really pushed my limits. It's really hard to think about it, but I'm proud that it's been 8+ weeks since I brewed the batch, and I still have 42 bottles to go!

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I've made some lighter APAs that tasted FAR better 1 month and more past your "forever" timeline. I couldn't put my finger on what I didn't like, but I hated them when young and LOVED them at 20 weeks! Something (hops, malt) melded just right.

I keep looking for what I did wrong with those batches, like boiling, forgetting whirlfloc, too high a temperature for ferment, not enough time on the yeast, but I can't say for certain. So I just wait longer if it isn't right at 7-8 weeks total.

With heavily dry hopped IPAs, OTOH, I do drink much of it early for that "hop candy" flavor and heavenly aroma that, unfortunately, fades away with time.

Sounds like you should be making perfect beer then...

I am at a loss

Doc Robinson said:

I'm not pissed off. See my response above. A little touch today Rev?

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Not me, I just thought you came out more pricky with that picture then anything the Pol had to say to be accused by you of being pricky. That's it.

The Pol said:

Sounds like you should be making perfect beer then...

I am at a loss

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Yeah. It all circles back to time. Both of those beers were off the cake, force carbed, and flowing within 14 days (and more like 10).

Doc Robinson said:

Yeah. It all circles back to time. Both of those beers were off the cake, force carbed, and flowing within 14 days (and more like 10).

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Yeah, that's half the time my beer spends in primary let alone getting any bottle conditioning time.

What were the yeast strains for the batches that the similar off-flavors?

Were both beers around the same OG? BM recipe calls for 1.039. Really, for a 1.039 beer 14 days glass to grain is not crazy, although might not be ideal.

I would suggest entering the beers into a BJCP competition; or, seeking out a BJCP judge that is experienced with off flavors. Someone with a palate that is trained to tasting beers that have off flavors might be able to give good insight.

Beerrific said:

What were the yeast strains for the batches that the similar off-flavors?

Were both beers around the same OG? BM recipe calls for 1.039. Really, for a 1.039 beer 14 days glass to grain is not crazy, although might not be ideal.

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Notty for BM's and 1056 for mine. Mine was 1.051.

If you can bottle one and get it in the mail ASAP, the upper Mississippi mash out is about as well judged a competition as there is. Entries are due Monday, which is a holiday, so I guess really Friday.

It sounds like green beer to me. I'll primary 3 weeks, then in the bottle for 3 weeks and that first beer usually tastes nothing like the beer at 6 weeks in the bottle. 8 weeks, 12 weeks and so on usually melds everything together in my beers.

I suggest what others said. Primary your beer, then rack it to a corny, seal it and let it condition for a while. If it still sucks, well then something crazy is going on.

I joined up with a local brew club last summer and get honest feedback and good advice. If nothing else, find some local HBT'ers and have a session. Or even brew with someone else. You will pick up some pointers and may have a method they will take with them.

One other thing, I noticed you are making adjustments to your water. I don't think this is your problem but I do the same and screwed up a batch before I knew what I was doing. Not saying you don't know what you're doing, just be careful with the amounts.

Also, take detailed notes and some of the bad batches will be worth it when it helps improve the other beers. Especially with the salt additions. I look back at the notes I use to take and laugh. I couldn't repeat some of those first batches if Revvy's life depended on it.

Your friends will always like your beer until you start charging. Hey...maybe that will bring your price/pint down. I've stopped telling those doing the sampling its my beer until they tell me what they think. Funny how they find faults in it now.

LeeF said:

I've stopped telling those doing the sampling its my beer until they tell me what they think. Funny how they find faults in it now.

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Good advice.

This line is funny. I was thinking of doing that also...bottling mine in washed commercial bottles like Stone and feeding it to friends...seeing if any comments are made.

I vote for green beer.

Almost every beer that i have brewed had a "funny" taste to it after 3-4 weeks in the bottle. so i put those bottles in the closet for another month or so, and they were all good beers.

time heals all .

I suspected that the culprit might be mold either in the dip tube, the keg heads, the lines, the faucet, anything...

So I came home, cleansed and sanitized the hell out of an empty keg, the beer line, the disconnect, the faucet head, etc. I racked from the “suspect keg” to the new keg, put it on gas, and sampled it. SAME FLAVOR. I ruled out the keg as the culprit. I noticed that on the bottom of the keg that I racked from, the remaining liquid was a very cloudy cream color (like yeast) and there was no compaction on the bottom of the keg.

I swirled it up and poured what remained into a glass. The same exact taste was evident, only tenfold. I probably drank a solution of 5 parts beer, 1 part yeast. Anyway, the flavor I was tasting was “yeasty”. It looks like I just kegged way too early while way too much yeast was still in suspension.

Looking back, I could describe the flavor as “bready”…but more like moldy bread to me. I guess I am super sensitive to it, and come to think of it, it really does taste exactly like the liquid yeast smells.

CLEARLY, I’m not ready for the BJCP exam! Thanks again everyone for all your help!

Doc Robinson said:

It looks like I just kegged way too early while way too much yeast was still in suspension.

Looking back, I could describe the flavor as “bready”…but more like moldy bread to me. I guess I am super sensitive to it, and come to think of it, it really does taste exactly like the liquid yeast smells.

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Yeah, it goes right back to the fact that you wanna be the speedy gonzales of brewing. That's part of the whole thing about giving your beer time. You have to give it time to flocculate out.

Control fermintation temps. My tastes have disapered, cigar or pipe after tast since it has turned cold and my fermetation temps have been lower instead of higher (i NOW HAVE A FERMEBTAIN FRIDGE FOR THE SUMMER) I also BRWED the centenial blond a mont ago and mine came out vary good for me, no off flavors like before the cold weather


I just add my my primig suger to my kegs as from what ive read it takes 7 days wether you force carb or not and i try to waight two weeks befor disspensing