A 3-Vessel 2-Tier 1-Pump E-RIMS for 30A

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Quaffer

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I have been greatly inspired by all the electric brewery builds on HBT. I am now in the planning process for my own version, based on what I have as well as what I want it to do. I'm putting up my plans here to solicit comments and suggestions before I commit to it.

The following system diagram shows roughly what I have in mind.
3Vessel2Tier1PumpEbrewery.jpg

I have been gravity fly sparging in my previous setup so I plan on doing that here too. That will save one pump from the system. Not shown in the diagram is a grant I plan to put below the MLT, using a float switch to make the pump move the wort to the BK, a gallon or so at the time.

If I were to fire all the heater elements at once they would draw over 58A and pop the 30A circuit breaker. I plan to use the elements both at 240V and 120V to mitigate the current needs. I have selected a 5500W ULD for each the MLT and the BK, and a 3000W LD incoloy element for the RIMS. The following table shows what the current draw is for each type of element at 240V and 120V. The 30A margin is what is left of the current budget when firing each element. I used this as a guide to chose a 3000W RIMS element. 3000W will allow me to do step mashes in 12-13 minutes from 122F to 154F with 8 gallon or so of water in the MLT.
HeaterProperties.jpg


Each element can be set to Off, Low, or High power by a 3-position selector switch. This table shows what I anticipate needing at each step of the brewing process.

PowerSchedule.jpg


One of the master E-brewery builders here said that it would be a design error to allow the operator to turn switches such that it blows the circuit breaker, no matter how stupid it seems. I agree, and to that end I came up with the following switch logic to ensure that the current draw will never exceed 30A on either leg (L1 or L2).

SwitchLogic.jpg


The switch logic prioritizes first the RIMS, then the HLT, and last the BK. I have not yet designed the actual circuit to make this happen, but it should'nt be a big problem coming up with a circuit that matches the above requirements.

So, what do you all think? Does it makes sense? Have I overlooked something?
 
Looks familiar. :D

39072_1575069099158_1308495930_31644064_3739284_n.jpg


As far as step mashing, you'll find you're far more limited by the recirculation flow rate than the heating element wattage...
 
Looks familiar. :D

Well, I'll be.... It's great that you already have the same basic configuration.

As far as step mashing, you'll find you're far more limited by the recirculation flow rate than the heating element wattage...

I see. That makes sense. I don't know how much flow to expect during recirculation. I wonder which will flow better, a perforated false bottom or a copper manifold with hacksaw cuts? I have been using a copper manifold so far, but of course at far less flows for sparging.

Thanks for your input.
 
I don't know how much flow to expect during recirculation. I wonder which will flow better, a perforated false bottom or a copper manifold with hacksaw cuts? I have been using a copper manifold so far, but of course at far less flows for sparging.

Depends on a number of factors but surface area is king. A false bottom will have the highest flow rate (greatest surface area).

I recirculate at ~1 gal/min using a hexagonal shaped CPVC manifold. The grain bed tends to compact above 1 gal/min, especially when mashing huskless grains like wheat or rye.
 
I recirculate at ~1 gal/min using a hexagonal shaped CPVC manifold. The grain bed tends to compact above 1 gal/min, especially when mashing huskless grains like wheat or rye.

This is good information, Lamar. Just the kind of thing I hoped to find out.

I made a quick calculation assuming a flow of 1 gal/min of pure water through the RIMS. The temperature rise in the RIMS tube @ 3kW is 20.5 degF. That is under ideal conditions, so of course the wort is hotter than that close to the element. I think I will have to consider a backup plan, say 1000 to 1500W in the RIMS tube. Luckily heater elements are pretty cheap so I can experiment with this.

Thanks again.
 

I am trying to figure out what you've got going on there. It looks like you are using the pump to clean out the CFC, RIMS, and a corny keg, all at once. Wow! I like the multiple simultaneous operations. It will make the chores at the end of the brew day all the quicker.

I see an RV hose, you probably also have a water filter in there somewhere. I see the newfangled cam-lock QDs with silicone 1/2" hoses. Sight glasses with thermo probes sticking out of the Tees. Storing equipment under the HLT tower. Everything I have thought of you already have. I'm probably missing something too. By the way, how do you dispose of the dirty water when you are done? I know my brewing area would be a sloppy mess If I did not take it all outside to clean. Maybe that's what the drip tray is for.

Edit: ... and you are heating the wash water with the RIMS tube! I can see that the power is on. This is great!
 
I see an RV hose, you probably also have a water filter in there somewhere.

Ya, I use a standard 10" filter housing with a 0.5 micron carbon filter I picked up at Lowes. The filter is rated for 1K gallons and cost $25.

Everything I have thought of you already have. I'm probably missing something too.

Ha, I stole most of the ideas from other folks rigs. It's the natural way of things. :D

By the way, how do you dispose of the dirty water when you are done? I know my brewing area would be a sloppy mess If I did not take it all outside to clean. Maybe that's what the drip tray is for.

The drip pan catches small spills when reconfiguring hoses.

I use a 16 gallon shop vac to to clean the tuns. I scoop out most of the grain in the 5 gallon bucket and vacuum the rest. Work great with a 2.5" "commercial quality" hose. The heat permanently deformed the cheaper hose that came with it. :eek:
 
So I have here an attempt at creating a ladder diagram for the brewery. I usually draw schematics so this is a little different for me to try.

Some description on what I intend it to do:
An E-stop shuts down all controls and the 24VAC transformer which makes all relays drop out and everything stops.

When I pull out the E-stop the three PIDs turn on and show temperature. Try as they may, they cannot yet turn on power to the SSRs. I have a latching relay at the bottom of the diagram. I need to push the "Enable Heaters" button to latch the relay. Now three selector switches indicate the power selected for each the RIMS, HLT, and BK. They can be Off, Low, or High. Indicator lamps show how much power the panel has allotted to each.

Switch logic prioritizes First the RIMS, then the HLT, and last the BK to receive power, so at no time will the system consume more than 30A from either leg.

I have almost everything shown, but not the extra switch blocks. Is it reasonable to have up to four switch blocks stacked on one side of a selector switch?

Without further ado, the ladder diagram: (click on picture, then again in the gallery to get the max size drawing... That was further ado, wasn't it.)


Comments are apprecieated.

I am trying to attached a PDF but I cannot see how to do it. Am I not allowed?
 
HIJACK!

Does a shopvac really work for cleaning the MLT?


Damn that could save me back a bit carrying the damn thing to the compost heap

Me too! I carry the keggle outside to scrape out hops and sludge. The worst part of my brew day.
 
So I have here an attempt at creating a ladder diagram for the brewery. I usually draw schematics so this is a little different for me to try.

Ya, the emergency stop switch and PID wiring looks good. Though, I feel the power limiting/balancing circuit may be a bit overkill and will likely conflict with the PID programming (e.g., PID is tuned for 22A ramp-up and is being limited to 10A).

Most of us an ammeter to monitor amperage draw when multi-tasking (e.g., heating sparge water while recirculating via the RIMS). The 30A GFI unit is able to handle temporary power spikes of ~40A without tripping.
 
Ya, the emergency stop switch and PID wiring looks good. Though, I feel the power limiting/balancing circuit may be a bit overkill and will likely conflict with the PID programming (e.g., PID is tuned for 22A ramp-up and is being limited to 10A).

Most of us an ammeter to monitor amperage draw when multi-tasking (e.g., heating sparge water while recirculating via the RIMS). The 30A GFI unit is able to handle temporary power spikes of ~40A without tripping.

Insightful comments as always.
I was hoping to tune the PIDs at low power and only use high power when ramping to higher temperatures.

Yes, the switch interlocks may be a bit overkill. I am usually able to refrain from RDWHAHB, but not always. When I do indulge my IQ drops through the floor and I may be turning switches that I shouldn't. I have jeopardized a few batches already with far fewer ways of screwing up. And honestly, I had fun with the switches. It's perhaps the only original thing in the circuit.

Ammeter yes! I have a dual ammeter of my own design in the works.

Whoever discovered the $49 spa disconnect at HD is a genius! I have seen references to this in posts but not paid attention, until now. Instead I've been trying to wring a 30A GFCB out of Ebay for little coin, but it is hopeless. New ones go for over $100, used for $80+, and it is hard to tell if any of them will fit my panel. I will stop at HD tonight and see if I can pick one up.
 
Might consider a more portable option: 30A GFI Cable.

They used to be available on eBay for $80 but a quick search came up empty. A company out of Canada make the cable. They have a website but their name slips my mind.

30ampGFI.jpg
 
Might consider a more portable option: 30A GFI Cable.

They used to be available on eBay for $80 but a quick search came up empty. A company out of Canada make the cable. They have a website but their name slips my mind.

30ampGFI.jpg

OK thanks, I'll look, but I meant to pick up a $49 spa disconnect at HD. It has the GFI circuit that I need. I can still use my regular 30A breaker in the panel. I scored 26' of SJOOW 10/4 at the grab-and-go shelf a few days ago (pre-cut cable returned to HD, even though HD has a no-return policy on cut cable). So all I need, assuming I have a spa panel, is a 4 pin plug and a receptacle for it.

Edit: I see what you mean now. The GFI cable is portable whereas the spa doohickey is not. I will have to think about that a little. I have no other 4-pin outlet in the house that I can use, at least for now.
 
I got the spa disconnect last night. Being only $49.00 I thought it could not possibly have a circuit breaker in there, 50A and all. I thought perhaps they had a GFI without the over-current protection. But it does have a 50A circuit breaker with GFI! And then you get all that box and buses and stuff too. How can they do that when the circuit breaker alone is normally twice that?

I also picked up 16' of 10/3 with ground for fixed installation from the grab-and-go shelf. I got a 30A/50A convertible plug and a 50A outlet. I did not think this through all the way, I should have gotten a 30A outlet instead because I will be feeding this box from my 30A circuit breaker. I will exchange it today.

Here's an electric code question. What would an inspector say if he finds this 50A GFCI sub panel fed from a 30A breaker in the main panel, via a 10 gage 4-conductor cable? I think it is OK, but will the inspector?
 
I think I will revive this old thread to become my build thread.

So what is different with this brewery? Mainly it is this: I run two 5500W ULWD heaters (HLT, BK) and one 3000W LWD heater (RIMS) from a 30A circuit breaker, all at once or in various combinations. This is possible because each heater can run at either 100% power @ 240V or 25% power @ 120V. Lockout switches ensure that I cannot overload the breaker by using combinations with too high current. The idea is that 100% power is used to raise the temperature while 25% power is used to maintain temperature.

I spent the entire Holliday break developing a Google Sketchup model of the brewery. It is close to completion now. I have also begun building it, but it has not progressed as far yet. I am almost done with the control panel.

Today I will show only images from the Sketchup model. Click on each image to go to the gallery for a larger image. The first picture shows an overview of the brewery. The frame is constructed from 1.5x1x.072" rectangular steel tubing. I plan to paint it in a silver metallic color. The top of the frame is covered in aluminum diamond plate. On the top left is the HLT, a converted Sanke keg. It is used to heat strike water also and can drain into the 10 gallon Rubbermaid MLT. The MLT drains into a grant with float switches that control the pump. The pump empties the grant into the BK.

(I am not able to view the full-size images, anybody knows why or how?)

Next up is a view from inside the HLT. Clockwise from left we have a PT100 temperature sensor which is poking through the sight glass fitting from BrewHardware.com. A s.s. float switch disables the heater if the water level is too low, to prevent dry firing the element. A 5500W ULWD heater is attached to a soldered locknut on the outside of the vessel. A copper dip tube is attached to a s.s. compression fitting, which in turn is screwed into a soldered 1/2" coupling. The tube has a 45° elbow to clear the heater.


Here is a detail view of the sparge system. The large valve is used to drain strike water from the HLT into the MLT. A smaller vinyl tube feeds a float valve which keeps the liquid level constant during sparging. This tube will need a valve also to shut off the float valve when not sparging. The float valve, and a s.s. pipe used while recirculating with the RIMS tube, empty into a octagonal s.s. tray. The seams of this tray are not welded or soldered, it is OK or even good if they are a little leaky. I can set the tray just under the surface using the handle nut and the steel rod. The RIMS tube can be seen to the left of the MLT. I will make it easy to remove the RIMS tube to drain and disassemble the heater. A kitchen timer/thermometer sits in its steel holder, held in place by its magnets in the back. The timer will be used to time the mash, sparge, and boil times. The temp probe can measure any interesting temperature within reach, for example the temperature of the mash.


A view of the lower front of the brewery. A grant is made from a two quart s.s. food container from Dick's Restaurant Supply in Bellevue, WA. It has a notch in the lid where I will run in a plastic tube from the MLT drain. More on the grant later. A Little Giant 3 MD-MT-HC is used for RIMS circulation, draining the grant, recirculating the boil through the CFC, whirlpooling, and for draining the BK into a fermenter. My homemade counter flow chiller can be seen under the BK. It is constructed from 20' of 3/8" copper tubing and a garden hose. I will attempt to heat-sterilize the CFC during the last few minutes of the boil time. The hose is probably not rated for boiling temperature, but there will be zero pressure and no water in it at that point. If it cannot stand up to the heat then I will have to reconsider my options, but the proof is in the pudding so to speak.


This is an X-ray view through the grant. A s.s. half coupling is soldered to the bottom and a male Camlock fitting is threaded into it. This will connect to the pump during sparge, moving the wort to the BK where it can be heated early because of the 25% power provision mentioned earlier. A curved float switch signals that the grant is full. A relay pulls and it start the pump. The pump drains the grant until another float switch signals that the grant is almost empty, and at that point the relay drops out and the pump stops. The only manual part of the sparge process is to regulate the drain flow out of the MLT into the grant, the system takes care of keeping the MLT liquid constant, temperature of the HLT constant, the grant from overflowing, and starting to heat the drained wort in the BK. So why am I bothering with a grant in the first place? I want to avoid having the pump sucking liquid from the MLT so that it cannot set the grain bed. During recirculation I will let the pump suck from the MLT, but I will stir the MLT before I start sparging to close any channels it may have generated and return the grain bed to its undisturbed state. By only allowing gravity to drain the MLT, the sparge process is very similar to the method I have used up till now, which I have had good success with. The grant sits in a swing-out holder that can be moved out of the way for storage.


This is a view from below the floor where we can see the back and bottom of the brewery. A pair of hinged legs can swing down to provide extra stability when the vessels are full. The legs will be a few thousands longer than just touching the floor. The idea is to take some weight off the casters and to prevent the rig to roll on its wheels. We can also see the three outlets for the heaters on the bottom of the electric panel, as well as cable glands for the input power cable and the pump cable. I have not decided yet how to cover the heater elements, but I am leaning heavily towards an idea I saw here on HBT; gluing conduit elbows to the elements. This allows for access to the element terminals, should they ever need retightening, yet providing a waterproof enclosure. The casters are 4" diameter from Harbor Freight tools, a fixed pair at the far end and a swivel pair at the near end.


This is the upper section of the front control panel. The enclosure is a Rittal fiberglass unit with dimensions 400x600x200 mm, or about 16x24x8 inches. It is painted in copper hammer finish which looks a lot better in real life than in this model. An emergency stop doubles as the on/off switch of the system. The power light comes on when the E-stop is pulled out. To the top left we see my custom made dual bar graph ammeter. Two stacks of 20 LEDs each indicate the total current drawn by the brewery. Since the PIDs work by pulsing the SSRs, a numeric ammeter readout will be a little hard to read, especially if more than one PID is active. I think a bar graph will be easier to read in a pulsing system. I have built the ammeter on a perforated prototype board and it is working well. If there is enough interest I am considering putting together a kit with a PCB to sell. At that point I will offer a video to demonstrate its workings. You probably recognize the IKEA ATTEST drawer pulls, a nod to Kal who showed us the way with his electric panel. Three Auber Instruments PIDs control the three heaters. The PIDs will all be powered as soon as the E-stop is pulled out. This allows the PIDs to show the temperature in each vessel. Each element has a three-position power switch that can be set to off, low, or high power. Each heater also has two pilot lights, a green that indicates that the heater is on (low or high) and a blue that indicates that the heater is running on high power. I have available a PDF of the wiring diagram version 1.2, not previously shown here.
 
Here is the lower section of the front panel. When first powered on, the heaters and the pump are disabled. To enable them we must push the white Enable button which pulls a relay. The Enable button has lockouts so that it works only if all three heater power selector switches are set to off. The pump does not need to be off to enable the system because this LG pump can run dry for up to eight hours without damage. When the heaters and the pump are enabled then the green lamp lights up. The red push button disables the heaters and the pump. A selector switch selects Off, Grant, or On for the pump. In grant mode the pump is operated by the two grant float switches described earlier. In On mode it runs continuously. I make the labels myself on a Brother label printer. These labels are printed on 19mm transparent laminated tape with white ink. The ink is laminated inside the label so that it cannot rub off.


The control panel with the door opened. I will not show wiring in this model. From the bottom, the back panel contains the three jacks for the heater elements. Above those we see two Hall effect current sensors, then a 35mm DIN rail with terminal blocks, circuit breakers, and two 24VAC 2P2T relays. All relays are operated by 24VAC to reduce danger since this control voltage goes out to the float switches. It would be quite dangerous to have 120VAC on the float switches. Let's switch to a close-up to finish the control panel.


Above the DIN rail we see the three SSRS for the heater element. I am using two 40A and one 25A SSRs, each attached to a beefy heat sink. I think that not too much heat will be dissipated here, and there is quite a large surface area of the enclosure that will be able to dissipate enough heat without forced cooling. I will monitor the temperature in the enclosure to see if I need to take any further action on the cooling. Above the SSRs we see a 75VA 24VAC control transformer. In the same row are three 2P2T 30A relays which select either 240V or 120V for the heaters. The NO contacts are rated 30A, but the NC contacts are rated at only 3A! I did not realize this large difference when I ordered the relays. This is why I will be running the two poles in each relay in parallel, to bring the NC contacts up to 6A. This is still not quite enough, but I think I will get at least a couple of brews out of them before I need to find suitable replacements. Above the three relays are the three 50A contactors that can switch off each heater's power. Two-pole contactors could have been used if I rearranged the wiring diagram so that the relays appear before the contactors, but I liked it better this way as the contactors break both legs of the 240V power as well as the neutral that is used in low power mode. In the upper left is a triple power supply, +/-15VDC and +5VDC, which powers the current sensors and the ammeter. If I design a PCB for the ammeter I will include a +/-15V switching power supply so that the end user only need to supply 5V power, from for example a wall bug transformer.


I have almost all components for the brewery except the rectangular steel tubes and the diamond plate. The control panel is almost finished. I need to move the bottom plate into the enclosure and wire up the door and it will be ready for a test drive. I will post build pictures in a little while.
 
What? That is some serous model work! Nice job. It looks like you're well on your way.
 
What? That is some serous model work! Nice job. It looks like you're well on your way.

Thanks. Things have not been moving particularly fast with family and farm work demanding some of my free time, but I have found that I enjoy the modeling and planning of the brewery as much as building it. As I see it, as long as it is fun then it is OK if it takes time. I am seriously deprived of brewing though, and I will have to address that soon with the brewery only partially finished.
 
This is the front panel, assembled just now for a quick picture.

The paint is Rustoleum hammered copper spray paint. I printed the labels on our Brother label printer using 19mm transparent laminated tape with white ink. The font is Copperplate Gothic Bold which I thought was appropriate given the paint, and I like how it looks.
FrontPanel1.jpg


The key for the two latches of the Rittal enclosure works great as a bottle opener. I don't think they intended it to open beers, but it is rather funny that it does. In the background are two 30A 240V locking outlets on the outside (for HLT, BK) and a 20A outlet in the center (RIMS). There is a subtle difference in the diameter of the circle of the prongs.
RittalKey.jpg


The back panel is now installed in the enclosure and it is partially wired. Next I will wire up the door and the heater outlets on the bottom.

More pictures soon.

By the way, I have started collecting some of my hombrew projects into a webpage. It is still in its infancy but I will add to it as I go. http://jansson.us/brewing.html
 
I finished the control panel today. This picture demonstrates the power priority function. All three power selectors are set to High power, but the switch logic allows only the RIMS power to be high, HLT and BK are on low power so to not exceed the 30A overall limit. For some reason the pilot lights do not show well in this picture but in real life it is quite obvious which lights are on or off. The heater elements and the pump are not yet connected so the ammeter shows no current draw. The current drawn by the relays and pilot lights is negligible.

PanelFront2.JPG



The bottom of the panel has three jacks for the heater elements. The left cable gland holds the input power cord while the right one is for the pump.

PanelBottom.JPG



Overview of the open control panel.

PanelOpenDoor.JPG



The lower part of the back panel. The wires are labeled with net names corresponding to the wiring diagram. Brother makes a flexible laminated tape for this purpose.

PanelBackBottom.JPG



The HLT and BK SSRs are both 40A on 40A heat sinks from Auber Instruments. The RIMS SSR is 25A on a 25A heat sink, also from Auber. The left two circuit breakers are tandem 15A B curve for the RIMS element. By using a lower breaker current for the RIMS I can wire it with 14 AWG rather than 10 AWG which I used for the HLT and BK.

PanelBackTop.JPG



This shot is from the inside of the door. In the upper right is my prototype ammeter. The three PIDs are all wired except for the RTD temperature sensors. I will finish these connections as I assemble the rest of the brewery. I masked the Rittal label before painting so I can read the model number should it become necessary.

PanelInsideDoorTop.JPG
 
That is BADASS!
I can't even imagine the time involved. I continue on my same path of nothingness.
 
In the same row are three 2P2T 30A relays which select either 240V or 120V for the heaters. The NO contacts are rated 30A, but the NC contacts are rated at only 3A!

Did you ever find a replacement for this? This looks like it would work, but is a bit pricey.

Great job on the rig, BTW
 
Very nice craftsman ship and holy crap on the amount of time you must have spent in Google Sketchup.

You seem to have some pretty heavy duty heat sinks on the inside of your panel. Are you planning on a way to circulate the air in there? And change it over with some outside air for that matter?
 
Did you ever find a replacement for this? This looks like it would work, but is a bit pricey.

Great job on the rig, BTW

Those would work great. I have had my eye on Ebay for similar relays, but I am going to wait until I have an actual failure to get replacements. They get pricey even on Ebay. Thanks for the link.
 
Very nice craftsman ship and holy crap on the amount of time you must have spent in Google Sketchup.

You seem to have some pretty heavy duty heat sinks on the inside of your panel. Are you planning on a way to circulate the air in there? And change it over with some outside air for that matter?

You are not kidding on the time I spent in Sketchup. I got carried away; it is as simple as that. I really like that program, as should be obvious.

The heat sinks are a bit on the heavy side because I am not planning on venting to the outside nor having forced air inside. There is lots of surface area on that enclosure to radiate heat to the outside. I will monitor the temperature inside to see if I need to adjust my plan, but I think it will be fine as-is.
 
This makes me want to go electric. How much for you to wire up another control panel and ship it my way?
 
This makes me want to go electric. How much for you to wire up another control panel and ship it my way?

Thanks for your confidence in me, but this has taken up far too much of my time already. I need to get brewing. As I am sure you know, Kal has a step-by-step write-up extraordinaire for his panel at his website, The Electric Brewery, or he'll sell you one already built.

If you want to try your hand at some of this stuff, I and many others here will gladly offer advice. Electricity is a fickle friend though; it can bite you real bad if you drop your guard. Good luck making your choice. :D
 
WOW! Excellent work, Quaffer. :mug:

I'm particularly intereseted in the switch logic for the elements. However, I clicked on the ladder diagram, and I'm not able to click on it again in the gallery to get the max size drawing.
 
WOW! Excellent work, Quaffer. :mug:

I'm particularly intereseted in the switch logic for the elements. However, I clicked on the ladder diagram, and I'm not able to click on it again in the gallery to get the max size drawing.

Thank you. :mug:

HBT has changed something and larger images can no longer be had from the gallery.

I have a PDF of the wiring diagram at this link. The revision level is now at 1.3. I think it will remain at this level for a while because I have weeded out all known bugs. More testing will ensue this weekend when I hope to boil some water and tune PIDs.

The switch logic can get kind of obscure at times, but there is a reason for everything. Most of the contacts are located on the selector switches, but I have one auxiliary contact RE2A which is operated by the contactor RE2. Let me know if you have any questions.
 
Just curious: any reason why you're not grounding the neutral on the secondary of the control power transformer?
 
Thanks for your confidence in me, but this has taken up far too much of my time already. I need to get brewing. As I am sure you know, Kal has a step-by-step write-up extraordinaire for his panel at his website, The Electric Brewery, or he'll sell you one already built.

If you want to try your hand at some of this stuff, I and many others here will gladly offer advice. Electricity is a fickle friend though; it can bite you real bad if you drop your guard. Good luck making your choice. :D


If I ever get to the point that I want to go beyond my fully manual keggle-on-a-turkey fryer, it'll probably be electric. I am fairly adept at residential wiring, but wiring a panel like that and fully understanding and troubleshooting bugs in the logic is a little above me at this point. I guess it is a good thing I'm good friends with the maintenance mechanics at the factory I work. :) They deal with this stuff daily.
 
Just curious: any reason why you're not grounding the neutral on the secondary of the control power transformer?

As you are pointing out, the 24VAC system is floating with respect to ground. I thought about it (connecting it to 120V Neutral) but I think there are only drawbacks with that connection, safety for one. In some systems it will be connected to earth ground via a large resistor to reduce electronics interference, yet preventing large ground currents. Do you think it is necessary? I am not sure.
 
Thank you for posting the ladder diagram! I'm very impressed by your work. Are you an EE?

I see you have breakers but not fuses. Do you think you (or I) should use fuses to protect the PIDs?
 
Thank you for posting the ladder diagram! I'm very impressed by your work. Are you an EE?

I see you have breakers but not fuses. Do you think you (or I) should use fuses to protect the PIDs?

Thank you. Yes on the EE.

It cannot hurt fusing the PIDs, but I don't see the point. I have a 5A circuit breaker which is serving the PIDs and other things. My idea is that the CB is protecting the wiring should there be an accidental short-circuit somewhere. As for the PIDs, I don't see a need to fuse them lower, because I don't see what it would protect them from. My PIDs are only connected to RTDs and SSR control inputs, and they are tolerant to shorts on those connections. Perhaps if someone is using the alarm outputs then the internal relay may need fusing so its contacts won't burn during a short-circuit condition. I am still open to suggestions on this point though.

The reason to have a fuse is usually to protect a device from short-circuits on its outputs, as is the case for transformers. Motors and pumps are fused to protect against a locked rotor condition. Car stereos are fused to protect it from screwdrivers and other stuff being jammed into them, and perhaps for shorts on the speaker outputs. In stereos, an internal subsystem may fail and short out the system, but it can be replaced and the stereo is good again. This is not the case with our PID. When it is gone it is gone, nothing to repair here. I cannot even open it.
 
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