Nano Brewery: Build or Buy?

There is a possibility I might be venturing down the road of commercial brewing. I have several people who are urging me to go pro and want to help. I am putting together a team of people to possible open a small brewery and tasting bar in my home town. So far I have two people who are pushing me to do this.

My roommate is a lawyer. He wants to be involved and is super excited to see something like this happen. He will take care of all the forms and regulations that need to be followed. He will be the dot the I's and cross the T's guy.

My other friend is an Idea/marketing type guy. He has a ton of experience in another industry. He was a brand manager and field ambassador for an outdoors company. He is also very capable of providing the funding needed to start out.

I of course would be the brewer and the guy who can make the whole thing work from technical aspect.

My question to those of you who have done this. What size system should I be looking at? Should I build it or should I buy it?

We will be looking for a small space to brew beer for catering companies and also have a small walk-in bar for people to session some beer locally. There is a small brewery in Ouray colorado that will be the model for our business. The Ourayle House. There capacity I think is 1.5 barrels. They only brew beer for the taps that are at their bar. They serve no food. You can only get their beer.

So this is a plan we are working on and would love some input on equipment from the folks here. I know a few of you have started nano breweries, you have been inspiring me for several months now.

If you build it, they will come...

But really, I have nothing to contribute and just wanted to say that.

Congrats on trying to go for something like this, I think it sounds like a blast!

What area of Colorado are you looking in?

Depending on where your hometown is, buying a nano brewery may just not be an option. There aren't a lot of places built on the scale you're looking at. That said, I would guess that buying would be cheaper that building one bit by bit, but that's only a net benefit if the place isn't being sold because of its location.

There was a recent thread by a guy that has been running a nano for about a year. He lists a lot of pitfalls, so you might want to look it up. One thing I remember his saying is build WAY bigger than you think you need.

I would like to open a brewpub, myself. However, I am still years away from that step, if ever.

Good Luck.

Started building and the paperwork last July, started selling in February. My advice is to start small but build with room to grow. The bar owner I talk to says I'm doing it right by starting small and growing as the business grows. I just wish I had built a bigger brew house so I could hold more but it works for now.

Cpt_Kirks said:

There was a recent thread by a guy that has been running a nano for about a year. He lists a lot of pitfalls, so you might want to look it up. One thing I remember his saying is build WAY bigger than you think you need.

I would like to open a brewpub, myself. However, I am still years away from that step, if ever.

Good Luck.

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Right now that is my main focus. Figuring out what size system I will need and what is the best way to get it. We want to start out small for several reasons, but our full business plan is to have a Pizzaria associated with the brewery. That would be in the future and in a larger space. This will be sort of a proof of concept for the full business.

I was thinking about going 1bbl. I have seen a bunch of commercial 3bbl systems though that might be worth the investment for future growth. If we go to a new space and the Pizzaria plan happens then I would want a larger system. So this first system might be a short term bridge.

I live in a small community in the mountains very close to several resorts.

My homebrew system is a one barrel system. I could easily brew 5 barrels a week if I had the fermenters to hold it. If you could find a used 3 barrel system at a reasonable price, that may be the way to go. Good luck!

Building a functional brewery of this size is not a trivial undertaking. If I were in your shoes I would be looking for a commercially built 3 barrel brewery. If you want to start out by making 1 barrel, great, but at least you leave yourself room for expansion. It gets very expensive when you purchase or build a 1 barrel brewery only to find you need more capacity if your business takes off quickly. I have seen many businesses go under because the business takes off quickly and they can not meet the demand of their customers. It's not my money but I would spend the capitol on a nice commercial 3 barrel system and have it on display. It's a nice marketing tool. Here is a used gas fired 3 BBL brewery for $15K:

http://bavarianbrewerytech.com/forsale/3bblSystem.htm


Also make sure you have a good solid business plan to follow. You will never attract investors or raise capitol without a solid business plan. I would also pay a visit to my local branch of the SBA. They have retired business owners on staff who can help guide you through the pitfalls of starting a business and give you excellent advice on writing your business plan. They are there to help you. Lastly, incorporate to protect your personal assets. Best of luck.

Thanks for the advice. I think I will set my sights on a 3bbl system. I think in the long run it will save time and money. I might not need to upgrade so soon.

As for the business plan side. We have that stuff all covered. My roomate is taking care of all the paperwork. We have all the investors we need for startup. We would need to seek investors to go any larger though. If we decide to make a brewpub or distribute then we would need to look for more money.

We just built our brew system. It is capable of about 1.66 bbl or 50 gallons post boil. Lots of folks tell us to build bigger, but it was the right size for us.

I think building it (if you know the right people) is considerably more cost effective (about 1/4 the cost of a used system for us) than buying one.

Just my two cents.

Michael Skubic
Hess Brewing Co.

I have no experience and don't have anything to back it up, because I don't know where I read it at. Wherever I read it at, it read that they recommend at least a 7bbl system to keep up with demand. Which is probably much bigger than you want. But it would allow you to grow with ease, having the equipment already. Again, I have no experience at all.

I have read that too. I believe what they are mostly referring to is a traditional brewpub. A place that would have the ability to hold the amount of people that would require a system that large.

Our plan is a small tap/tasting room. We are writing into our business plan a strategy for growth. We are unsure if we will want that growth to be in the direction of a pub or just manufacturing. I believe we will let the market decide that. I think I have decided to build it. I am looking at three 85 gallon vessels that will be the heart of the system. I am thinking of doubling the fermenter space for growth and just blend two brew sessions together to fill them. Then I can start out doing 2bbl batches and if the need arises move up to about 3.5bbl in the fermenter.

Just kicking around ideas now. Here is my initial brainstorming sketch.

How will you heat these vessels? With heating that much fluid I would think steam would be the obvious choice. Are your vessels steam jacketed?

Brewmoor said:

I have read that too. I believe what they are mostly referring to is a traditional brewpub. A place that would have the ability to hold the amount of people that would require a system that large.

Our plan is a small tap/tasting room. We are writing into our business plan a strategy for growth. We are unsure if we will want that growth to be in the direction of a pub or just manufacturing. I believe we will let the market decide that. I think I have decided to build it. I am looking at three 85 gallon vessels that will be the heart of the system. I am thinking of doubling the fermenter space for growth and just blend two brew sessions together to fill them. Then I can start out doing 2bbl batches and if the need arises move up to about 3.5bbl in the fermenter.

Just kicking around ideas now. Here is my initial brainstorming sketch.

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Hey brewmoor you might give the people at Amicas in Salida a call heres the link to the website http://amicassalida.typepad.com/
Its your concept and works really well the place always a line out the door great food good beer with guest taps their fermenters are smaller 1-3 bbls I think.

Premier Stainless started offering a complete 3bbl system brand new for $37,500.

http://www.probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=16003

Probrewer.com is the site you'll probably want to familiarize yourself with. Lot's of superb information from very experienced people.

Sawdustguy said:

How will you heat these vessels? With heating that much fluid I would think steam would be the obvious choice. Are your vessels steam jacketed?

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The kettles I am looking at are not jacketed. I will probably heat with Electric. The HLT will definitely be electric. I am looking into things for the BK. I would like to go electric for that as well. I may end up doing an assist with direct fire gas.

I am going to look into elements like this.

http://www.amazon.com/Islander-Manatee-Electric-Element-25355011/dp/B003CI3B3K

jppostKW said:

Hey brewmoor you might give the people at Amicas in Salida a call heres the link to the website http://amicassalida.typepad.com/
Its your concept and works really well the place always a line out the door great food good beer with guest taps their fermenters are smaller 1-3 bbls I think.

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Thanks I will have to check them out. I will be going down that way a bunch this summer kayaking. It would be great to talk with them.

I have thought about this for a while now. I would love to have a 1-3 bbl brewery (really, who wouldn't), but I think you can optimize something smaller to be very efficient and well utilized and save a lot of money.

If you even built out a 1/2bbl brewery that was electric and well controlled and automated, I think you could turn out a lot of beer.

For my system (10 gallon electric brutus 20) I could do a lot of beer in a day. Say, for easy numbers, that I have a 4 hour brew day. I break that into about 2 hours to heat and mash and another 2 hours to boil and cool.

To start a brew day I use the electric (more expensive) system as normal to heat and mash. I then pump it over to a propane powered BK. I am at the 2 hour mark and can start boiling batch 1 and heating and mashing batch 2. If you take this out a few steps it equates to a first batch in 4 hours and each additional batch taking 2 hours (as long as I have enough extra burners and BKs to keep up, 3 perhaps). In an 8 hour day I can do 30 gallons on a 10 gallon system.

In a 10 hour day on a 1/2bbl system I could theoretically do 1.5bbl. Make it a 10 hour day and I can do 2bbl on a 1/2bbl system. I can build out a very fast and controlled 1/2 bbl system for a whole lot less money than any non automated used 2bbl system that might still take 6-8 hours because of volumes and heating times. A little more time and coordination is required, but the initial outlay of cash is way less. That money could then be used on fermenters and the yeast side where it makes a huge difference. As long as your fermenters can keep up, I think it would work well to start out.

Just some thoughts. I would appreciate any feedback.

In theory it seems like your plan could work. However. In my case and in some others out there. We are going to be starting this whole thing in our spare time. Weekends and after work. So spending 10hrs per day making beer can not really be done. If you have a system that can do 1.5bbl in one shot you have shrunk your day down to about 5 hrs. Leaving time for all the other odds and ends of getting your business going.

I have a price list going for our business plan. Going fairly basic with two pumps. I can build a rig with used 85 gallon kettles for about $2500. That does not include my time for labor. That is a pretty small price for extra capacity.

Edit: Though for feedback to you. I say go with what you can manage. Dogfish Head is famous for starting their operations with a Sabco. Sam was doing exactly what you suggest. Sure it was a lot of hard work but he managed. Though he had financial backing that allowed him to do it full time. That helps.

I am really lucky that I have people that want to see this happen. We have the funds to build the system and purchase fermenters. We might also already have rent and utilities covered for a year from another "investor". We will not need to seek much more to get started. We just need to dedicate ourselves to doing it. The time investment can not be overlooked.

I think that is entirely fair. It all depends on what is more important in the beginning, time or initial capital. I usually go for the time intensive start, but that is a personal decision.

$2500 is impressive. There are people who spend more than that on a 5 gallon system. I have to ask. What are you using for tanks on this 85 gallon system? Tank prices are the thing that really shock me for the larger SS stuff. Burners and controls are much closer in price to some of the homebrew gear we see around here.

Do you have an idea of the fermenters that you are looking at?

jfkriege said:

I think that is entirely fair. It all depends on what is more important in the beginning, time or initial capital. I usually go for the time intensive start, but that is a personal decision.

$2500 is impressive. There are people who spend more than that on a 5 gallon system. I have to ask. What are you using for tanks on this 85 gallon system? Tank prices are the thing that really shock me for the larger SS stuff. Burners and controls are much closer in price to some of the homebrew gear we see around here.

Do you have an idea of the fermenters that you are looking at?

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I am going to start out with poly conicals. 110 gallon tanks from tankdepot.com are fairly priced.

As for the kettles, I found some used 85 gallon single wall tanks on legs and wheels for $250 each. If they are still around when I have cash in hand I think these are what I am going to use.

Yeah I have about $1700 into my 10 gallon system. I spent a bunch of money on things to make it look nice. The plumbing system on my rig cost me a bunch. All the extra fittings is where it gets you. What I am planning now will be very simple. I will use hoses for all my plumbing. I am not worried about making it look too pretty.

this is really cool, hopefully you keep this thread going I'm sure you're going to get very busy though. If i may suggest, get those 85 gallon tanks ASAP! that sounds cheap! you are venturing into an expensive venture, $500 shouldn't be problem(i hope not)

I do have a quick question, to me fermentation vessels seem to be the limiting factor, what is the minimum kettle to fermentor ratio? I would assume brewing once a week with 4 weeks fermenting puts you at 4:1 but i suspect that number needs to be much higher to facilitate different beer variety, and brewing more often.

This sounds like a great idea, but for the scale you are planning will the electrical, plumbing, ventilation systems in the building you plan to use support the additional load of the brewing system. Another approach would be to startup with contract brewed beer to your recipe and use your existing system to brew "Specials" for limited sales, (product development and test marketing). You could get doors open quicker and let others take risk of producing beer to your specification while you aquire the brewing system equipment to brew on premisis and make the infrastructure(structural, electrical, plumbing, ventilation) changes to get started brewing on a larger scale. This approach would lighten the startup costs and still let you deliver a wider array of product and custom brews on a limited scale to start as you ramp inhouse production with larger brewing system you build.

kladue said:

This sounds like a great idea, but for the scale you are planning will the electrical, plumbing, ventilation systems in the building you plan to use support the additional load of the brewing system. Another approach would be to startup with contract brewed beer to your recipe and use your existing system to brew "Specials" for limited sales, (product development and test marketing). You could get doors open quicker and let others take risk of producing beer to your specification while you aquire the brewing system equipment to brew on premisis and make the infrastructure(structural, electrical, plumbing, ventilation) changes to get started brewing on a larger scale. This approach would lighten the startup costs and still let you deliver a wider array of product and custom brews on a limited scale to start as you ramp inhouse production with larger brewing system you build.

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I was at the Vail Big Beers festival in January and spoke to the guys from Upslope brewing. They mentioned something about contract brewing and packaging. They have a canning line and were maybe trying to offset their costs by keeping it running for others. I did not get into details with them but it seems like another option.

I am not so sure I could do it though. I think I am too much of a control freak. I need to have my hands on the process.

JNye said:

I do have a quick question, to me fermentation vessels seem to be the limiting factor, what is the minimum kettle to fermentor ratio? I would assume brewing once a week with 4 weeks fermenting puts you at 4:1 but i suspect that number needs to be much higher to facilitate different beer variety, and brewing more often.

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I have not planned out that far yet. My thoughts so far are to get 4 110 gallon conicals. Then transfer to sanke kegs. I can then plan to have fermenters going as needed to replenish the kegs.

Most folks with brewing establishments need to run 24/7 to make it pay for itself, expensive equipment, small margins, and overhead. If their quality control is very good you can get started quicker that way as they have the neccessary permits and infrastructrure to produce beer tomorrow. If they would agree, you could participate in production of beer for your facility and gain some valuable experience in the process and hopefully avoid some of the more educational disasters in brewing on a larger scale. You should still work on new and different brews on your own system as you go to see what will impress your customers and what might not be well recieved by others. That way if you only have 5-10 gallons that is less than perfect the financial impact is not the same as 100 gallons.

A couple weeks ago the Brewing Network guys had 3 nano brewers on the "Sunday Session" show. One of them brews in 5 or 10 gallon batches. Here is the URL for the show if you are interested in the experiences of others: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/621

Brewmoor said:

I am not so sure I could do it though. I think I am too much of a control freak. I need to have my hands on the process.

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A word to the wise. I wish you all the luck in the world with your venture but lots of small businesses fail for this exact reason. They fail when it is time to expand. They try to it all themselves and find out that inevitably they can't, but by that time it's too late and the business fails. I have seen it lots of times, and it's sad because the business folds not because of it's potential but because someone can't let go and depend on others. It's a vicious cycle and ultimately leads to bad business decisions. Control freaks and micro managers have a horrible time in the business world and more often than not are unsuccessful. I am not trying to be a hardass, I just don't want to see you fall into that trap.

Sawdustguy said:

A word to the wise. I wish you all the luck in the world with your venture but lots of small businesses fail for this exact reason. They fail when it is time to expand. They try to it all themselves and find out that inevitably they can't, but by that time it's too late and the business fails. I have seen it lots of times, and it's sad because the business folds not because of it's potential but because someone can't let go and depend on others. It's a vicious cycle and ultimately leads to bad business decisions. Control freaks and micro managers have a horrible time in the business world and more often than not are unsuccessful. I am not trying to be a hardass, I just don't want to see you fall into that trap.

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good advice amigo

I appreciate the advice. I may have gave the wrong impression of myself. I like control but also know when to give it up. I was just referring to contract brewing. The reason I want to do a brewery is to actually be a part of it. To do the brewing. I will actually not have too much to do with the "business" side of things. My roomate will be in charge of the day to day operations. We have another guy who will be doing the marketing/promotion side of things.

My roomate is a lawyer. He is drawing up ownership contracts and business plan that will layout plans for growth. We will in basic terms have a path to follow, given what choices we make in expansion.

The control I was talking about, was more on recipes, brewing process, and timing. Thanks again though for the advice. It always helps to have people keep you in check.

Brewmoor said:

The control I was talking about, was more on recipes, brewing process, and timing. Thanks again though for the advice. It always helps to have people keep you in check.

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You don't lose much, if any of that by contract brewing. Basically, you just use an established brewery's equipment. Yes, they will be there to protect their equipment, but recipes and the process will be all you. The only limitation is fitting into their schedule...

Do some research on Schmaltz brewing out of Brooklyn, he's been pretty successful and only contract brews. I'm not a fan of his recipes personally, but he's very consistent...

I will need to do more research. I was under the impression contract brewing meant you gave them a recipe and they pump it out like a Chinese factory. I did not realize it could mean you using their equipment.

Contract vs. Alternating Proprietorship

Contract = Give them recipe & let them brew it

AP = You brew on their system

Thanks for that.

My plans have changed significantly since this post. We are starting through the process now. We have incorporated, came up with logos, and are working on a website. Our business plan has changed several times but I think we have a solid vision laid out.

We are going to purchase a 7 barrel system for the tap room. We are also going to have a homebrew shop on premise too. We have decided further growth from there will be distribution if there is enough interest. We will then seek contract brewers to help us down that road when the time comes. We are going to work in steps laid out by the business plan, and take things slow. It is all coming together slow and steady.

Any updates??? Are you still chugging along in the process?

Must be the time that he's getting busy. Along those lines, a brewery attached to a homebrew shop has worked out well for Two Brothers Brewing Co. They have just recently gotten into a local chain of grocery stores.

I know Bonfire Brewing is on Facebook...I get lots of updates. It seems like they are moving right along.

Hey guys thanks for the interest. Yes we have a facebook page. Here

I have been pretty busy getting things together. I decided to build a system. I am using 55 gallon stainless drums. I am doing a double batch system. 2 mash tuns, 2 boil kettles so i can do about 3 bbl batches. We purchased 130 gallon fermenters from Glacier tanks. Right now my barrels are getting fittings welded into them. As soon as they are back I will start the build out and post a build thread.

We hope to have building permits next week for the interior of the building. I am doing most of the general construction myself. I will do much of the electrical and my neighbor will help and pull the permit. Plumbing is the only thing we are struggling with at the moment. Can't seem to find the "bro" deal yet for that. Right now our quotes are coming in pretty high. So that is our next hurdle.

All paperwork is in with the TTB and the state. We are now just playing the waiting game on that front. We call them every week to make sure they don't need anything more from us. Overall things are moving along. If all goes well we should be opening the doors in November before the ski season starts.

Hey guys,

Long time reader, first time poster. I have been thinking about trying to build an super efficient, super economical nano brewery recently and had a question about all grain on a large scale and using food grade plastics over SS. Really what I would like to do is to set up a gravity feed system using stackable 70 gallon tanks (ala http://www.gototanks.com/ST-0070-ST.aspx).

What are some things that should be of concern? Is there a reason why not to use plastics? I understand that they will take on characteristics of they contain but would proper cleaning / sanitizing not take care of this problem?

Sorry if this is a weak question but I have never used plastic and the thought of setting up a handful of 70gal lines for pennies compared to SS is very intriguing to me.

Thanks,

Daniel

On deck right now: Amarillo Power Wheat & Vals Wicked Cherry

I've used plastics with success. I am not sure about the shape of those tanks however as they would be more difficult to clean than a straight sided conical or cone bottom tank.