Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

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Thanks. I can't wait till Saturday. I'm gonna brew it then.
Boiling down the .75 to a syrup will be interesting.
...starts to burn and bubble.... I assume this is a process that 'play be year, or eye' :)
How far is too far? I assume we are going for a caramel-y theme. But is there a fine line between that and scortch?
 
Too far is when it bubbles up so much it starts to come out of your pot because its just so thick. If you can shake the pot around and it still moves without leaving a sludge behind its not thick enough.
Once you reduce it down big time (96oz to >12oz) transfer it to your main kettle and maybe put some more wort back in to deglaze the other pot so you get all the goodness.
 
Thanks. Ingrediants came in yesterday. Will put the starter on friday, and brew saturday.
Can't wait!
 
I'm going to brew the new world recipe this sunday, I need to have it ready by march 24th though, I know the more I age this the better it'll be, can I work with 2 months from grain to glass..?
 
I've never had the Westy 12. How does it compare with Rochefort 10? I have done several versions of Rochefort 10... using it as the base recipe for an Oaked version, a Chocolate-Vanilla-Oak-Burbon (inspired by drinking Dragon's Milk) and a Chipoltle-Ancho-Oak version (yeah, I like oak.) I'd like to add this to my list of big beers, but I'm not set-up to do all grain. Could you give me some advise on doing this with extracts? This is a huge thread, so I apologize if I'm asking a question that's been answered already.
 
I just read Brew Like A Monk and I've never done any dark strongs before but I would really like to give this one a stab. I was thinking about brewing this for a local competition but I have a buddy entering a trippel in the same competition.
His trip was brewed from a kit that recommended aging it for 12 months. I have about 4.5 months realistically. Is that enough time to get this worthy of competition?
 
4.5 months is realistic, but 2 probably is not. With this much alcohol you need time for it to mellow.
 
When do you add the D-90 and D-180?
Beginning or end of boil? I know I read somewhere, but can't find it now.
 
Layne said:
When do you add the D-90 and D-180?
Beginning or end of boil? I know I read somewhere, but can't find it now.
Click to expand...

The OP says he does it at flameout, which helps bring the temp down as well. I believe that's how I did mine.
 
bajabrewer7 said:
How about I lower the grain bill to end up with ~7.5 abv? would that help to have it "ready" in a couple of months?
Click to expand...

Well it wouldn't be the same beer then. That's like looking at a recipe for spaghetti and saying "how about I use alfredo sauce instead of marinara?" Not really spaghetti anymore is it?
 
Brewed mine today.
Beersmith showed me an OG of 1.088 ended up 1.080
Here's the pic of my syrup from boiled down first runnings.
094417e0.jpg
 
So I brewed my interpretation on this yesterday. Used 11 pounds instead of 13.5, couldn't find dark candi sugar so I had to go with clear. Caramelized the first .75 runnings. Ended up with 1.072 gravity and 5.8 gallons into the fermenter. I must have done something wrong as the hydro sample tasted a bit bitter... Perhaps I burnt the first running, although the caramel it created didn't have this taste, I boiled for nearly 90 minutes. I was careful of the mash temperatures but perhaps I somehow released tannins from the grain, I don't 'know.. It's fermenting as I write this so I'll give it a chance to do its thing and we'll see what comes out.. Anybody else have this problem?
 
Never judge a beer on the hydro sample taste. Your yeasties haven't done thier thing yet. :) They do some amazing things.
 
I tend to always get a bit of bitterness in hydro samples. You have every bit of hop acid there in the beer and most of it is floating on the surface. There is no alcohol present for the solvent action to in a sense dissolve it into solution as well. Also the CO2 produced from fermentation will drive off some hop compounds. You beer just has not been scrubbed by the fermenting yeast yet.
 
That's encouraging! I'll try to follow the fermentation schedule and will let you guys know how it turns out. It's a bit cold here right now so I'll probably have to set my controller to the desired 83 today, pitched at 65 and I'm letting it free rise, just wondering if that'll be enough.
 
75 hours after pitching, the temp was down to 77 degrees from 79 . Not a big change, but a change none the less, and towards cool. I put a small lightbulb in the ferment chamber to keep the temp up.

75 hours ago, I pitched a partial yeastcake from a WLP530 Belgian Pale Ale into 6.5 gallons of 1.080 wort. I just took a sample (love my new conical) it's down to 1.018

The sample tasted a little sweet, a little alcohol-y, I guess.
It's clear that even though we've dropped the majority of the gravity points, the yeast still have a lot of work to do.
 
Rochefort10 said:
I've never had the Westy 12. How does it compare with Rochefort 10? I have done several versions of Rochefort 10... using it as the base recipe for an Oaked version, a Chocolate-Vanilla-Oak-Burbon (inspired by drinking Dragon's Milk) and a Chipoltle-Ancho-Oak version (yeah, I like oak.) I'd like to add this to my list of big beers, but I'm not set-up to do all grain. Could you give me some advise on doing this with extracts? This is a huge thread, so I apologize if I'm asking a question that's been answered already.
Click to expand...
I love this Westvleteren12 Review, and he mentions Rochefort10 in there. Hope it helps some for ya.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Brewed on Jan 21st Pitched at 67, free rise, to 80 the next day (gravity was 1.080)
On the 24th, gravity was 1.018
On the 29th gravity was 1.014
Today, the 31st gravity is still 1.014 (sample taste much better than on the 29th)

Should I do anything to insure I drop a few more points?
I have a light in the fermentation chamber holding at 80 degrees.
 
Just made another batch last night. The previous batch, the airlock dried out when I left it at my parents to bulk age, and acetobacter wrecked it. Before then it tasted great, so I am very excited about this beer.
 
If you are planning on cold conditioning the beer like the monks I would say it's better to gradually cool down rather than crash cool it, as you want some of the yeast to remain active.
 
Yes, the fermentation schedule is one thing on which we have very clear instructions. I see no reason to deviate from them. The only thing that has been a bit unclear is what ambient temperature should be maintained as the wort self-rises.
 
Hello!

I have read this thread with great interest and will be attempting the Pious Old World recipe in the coming weeks. Thank you, Saq, for the recipe and everyone else for contributing to this thread. I have been amassing all the essentials (2L plate starter set up, temperature controller, brew belt) and I am mostly ready to go. I do have a few questions:

1. My LHBS (American Brewmaster in Raleigh, NC) does not carry Belgian Pale malt. I purchased a half sack of Belgian Pils, so i am good to go there. I have American 2 Row Pale at home. Can i substitute that or would that be too far off? I was thinking I could do 10lbs of Belgian Pils and 6lbs of American 2 row to minimize the impact. I really dont want to pay $15 shipping for 10lbs of grain if i can avoid it.

2. What sort of water profile have people been using? 100% spring water? Any additions?

3. How long do you let the fermentation self rise before kicking on the external heat (if necessary) to bring it up to 83?

Thanks!

Brad
 
BradL said:
Hello!

I have read this thread with great interest and will be attempting the Pious Old World recipe in the coming weeks. Thank you, Saq, for the recipe and everyone else for contributing to this thread. I have been amassing all the essentials (2L plate starter set up, temperature controller, brew belt) and I am mostly ready to go. I do have a few questions:

1. My LHBS (American Brewmaster in Raleigh, NC) does not carry Belgian Pale malt. I purchased a half sack of Belgian Pils, so i am good to go there. I have American 2 Row Pale at home. Can i substitute that or would that be too far off? I was thinking I could do 10lbs of Belgian Pils and 6lbs of American 2 row to minimize the impact. I really dont want to pay $15 shipping for 10lbs of grain if i can avoid it.

2. What sort of water profile have people been using? 100% spring water? Any additions?

3. How long do you let the fermentation self rise before kicking on the external heat (if necessary) to bring it up to 83?

Thanks!

Brad
Click to expand...

1.) while my stance on this may not be agreed upon by others, in the true spirit of belgian monks who brewed with whatever they had available at the time, I think you should go for it regardless. as to the difference, it is my understanding that the main difference between belgian 2 row pale malt and american 2 row pale malt is that the belgian malt has a higher diastic power and will convert more of its starches to sugars giving you a drier finish. that's just some knowledge you can do whatever you want with.

2.) it was mentioned in this thread that the monks at westvleteren treat their water. i don't know if their treatment is known but it was also mentioned in this thread that the chimey brewery water profile is a good target for this style.

3.) i asked this question myself a while back. it seems that a lot of people hold a low 70's ambient temperature and let the beer self rise to the target temp. at some point you may need to even cool it off to keep it from getting TOO hot. once the temperature starts to drop from its target, that's when you should start heating it externally to hold it at the target for the appropriate length of time. at least this is my understanding.
 
I brewed the Old World last March following the OP mostly as written. After tasting over time and entering it into a few competitions, here's what I learned and what I would do differently next time. As always, YMMV:

1. The Old World really needs a decoction mash. A single infusion mash fails to bring out the most of just the base malt, and the final product lacks something in terms of malt complexity.

2. I would NOT push the temp externally over 75F, in fact I would work to keep it below 75F. I know the monks let it rise to 82F, but I think a large scale fermentation is physically different from a small scale bucket/carboy in a home setting. The biggest demerits I got from several judges was that the alcohol was too hot and/or solventy.

3. If not blasting the temp into the low 80's, make sure to pitch a **** load of yeast and oxygenate to get it to finish around 1.012...this is mandatory. I would consider raising the temp above 75 only after fermentation was 80% finished to ensure a dry enough finish.

Cheers and good luck.
 
Rochefort10 said:
Thanks for posting the Video! I've GOT to try this stuff.
Click to expand...
You bet, love the video, and I've got a similar brew to Saq's still aging (coming out very nice it seems), and another rebrew in process of contemplation while getting ready for it. I started a 4L and decided to cut it back for some stressing as people mention in the thread so I have extra yeast now :). Best of brewing to all on the quads!
 
After reading this thread and researching other sources about westy12 clones and invert sugar/syrup, Im convinced Layne is on to something. I know blam talks about 85% of the runnings goes into the production of the 8 and 12. I'm starting to think that "missing" 15% goes into the production of invert sugar/syrup.

Could the monks just use regular cane sugar + the first runnings and create their own syrup right in the boiling kettle?

The sweet wort should be full of amino acids, so all that would be needed is maybe some slacked lime to control the pH to prevent the sugars from scorching. Chances are the monks use slacked lime for water treatment as well....

I think im just about ready to brew.

just my 2 cents.
 
I didn't see this in the thread so:

Any thoughts on using the Belgian Pale extract from Williams Brewing for an extract recipe to get closer to the old world version using extracts?
 
Any hints as to how this version may turn out yet?

saq said:
Hard to say. Best one I ever did was so far New World batch 1. In a week or so I'm brewing the following

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.75 gal
Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Estimations

Estimated OG: 1.091 SG
Estimated FG: 1.006 SG
Estimated ABV: 11.4 %
Estimated Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.065 SG
Bitterness: 37.9 IBUs (Rager)
Estimated Color: 36.8 SRM
Color
Brewery Information

Brewer: saq
Assistant:
Equipment: Blichmann 10g Kettle
Efficiency: 75.00


Measurements

Measured OG: 1.090 SG
Measured FG: 1.012 SG
ABV: 10.4 %

Total Grains: 17 lbs 15.4 oz
Total Hops: 2.00 oz


Mash Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 44.5 %
4 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 22.3 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 3 8.4 %
12.0 oz Biscuit Malt (27.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.2 %
5.3 oz Aromatic Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.8 %
4.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 6 1.4 %
2.1 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 7 0.7 %


Mash Steps
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Mash In Add 22.77 qt of water at 158.2 F 149.0 F 90 min
Fly sparge with 3.85 gal water at 168.0 F


Boil Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
2 lbs D90 Candi Syrup (90.0 SRM) Sugar 8 11.1 %
1 lbs D180 Candi Syrup (180.0 SRM) Sugar 9 5.6 %
1.00 oz Brewer's Gold [8.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 10 33.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [4.10 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 11 4.6 IBUs
1.00 Items Servomyces (Boil 5.0 mins) Other 12 -


Fermentation Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
1.0 pkg Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) [40.00 ml] Yeast 13 -


Fermentation

1/5/2012 - Primary Fermentation (18.00 days at 80.0 F ending at 80.0 F)
1/23/2012 - Secondary Fermentation (3.00 days at 80.0 F ending at 60.0 F)
1/26/2012 - Tertiary Fermentation (3.00 days at 60.0 F ending at 36.0 F)

Do a separate boildown of about 0.75 gallons of first runnings into syrup, should be able to add back to boil kettle before boil gets rolling.
Click to expand...
 
g-star said:
2. I would NOT push the temp externally over 75F, in fact I would work to keep it below 75F. I know the monks let it rise to 82F, but I think a large scale fermentation is physically different from a small scale bucket/carboy in a home setting. The biggest demerits I got from several judges was that the alcohol was too hot and/or solventy.
Click to expand...

What was the age of your brew when you submitted to the contests? I know after 6 mos there was a huge difference in the hot alc character. Just curious if perhaps you didn't allow that aspect of the brew come into its own by properly aging it.

FWIW I did the new world and followed the ferment temp to 83F as stated with good results.
 
g-star said:
2. I would NOT push the temp externally over 75F, in fact I would work to keep it below 75F. I know the monks let it rise to 82F, but I think a large scale fermentation is physically different from a small scale bucket/carboy in a home setting. The biggest demerits I got from several judges was that the alcohol was too hot and/or solventy.
Click to expand...

I think the discrepancy here may be where the temp is taken. I believe the temps most people are quoting are of the beer itself in the fermenter. I monitor my beer temps with a wire-like temperature probe the entire fermentation, and I have noticed it is not uncommon for there to be up to a 10 degree difference between the outside temperature and the temp of the beer inside the fermenter (inside is always warmer). An outside temp of 75F plus a vigorous fermentation may have the beer temp close to 85F, which is probably a bit too warm.
 
After reading the majority of this thread (rope?) I checked out Wesvleteren's website: http://www.sintsixtus.be/eng/proces.htm#grondstoffen
Not sure how recently their site was updated, but I found it interesting that there are details of their brewing process on the website that provide answers to some questions on how a Westy is brewed. Some excerpts of note:
1) "various varieties of two-row summer barley are used"
2) "Granulated sugar is added to enhance the density of the wort"
3) "This mash is gradually heated by means of steam following a well-determined temperature curve. During this process periods of rest are inserted."

Point 1) is no surprise, but I was surprised by point 2) since "granulated" implies that a refined sugar product (i.e. not dark candi syrup) is used. Also, for a true "old world" brewing process, point 3) is in conflict with Candi Sugar Inc's recipe for a Westy 12 clone, where caramelization of the grain while rapidly heating during decoction is noted as being important. This would not be possible with steam-based heating of the decoction mash.
 

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