PID's or Brewtroller?

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Cpt_Kirks

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I'm working toward having an all electric brewing system. I'll need some way to control the elements in the HLT and Keggle, and maybe later for a HERMS setup.

It seems PID's to control the SSR's run about $45, each. A Brewtroller board runs about $100, complete.

I can go a step at a time with individual PID's, but in the long run, a Brewtroller board will be cheaper and more flexible.

Any advice on which way to go?

:confused:
 
I'm a computer engineer, so when I go to a HERMS/RIMS I'm going to either use a microcontroller or get some used computer parts and throw them together. And screw PID I'm going fuzzy logic all the way. I still have that code laying around somewhere.
 
I chose the BCS from ECC. I liked the web based interface and figured it would be more flexible for me. Something about reading off a tiny LCD makes it tough on my old eyeballs. Still don't have it up and running due to missing parts for my stand. Sure it's more money but you can easily set up your system to allow someone else to see the process as you brew or brew from work while your assistant dumps the grain in! LOL
 
The Brewtroller can be setup to use PID or just straight ON/OFF. The BCS does have a great display but does require you have a PC in your brew area. Some day I plan on writing up a comparison between the two.

The BCS460 is a better solution if you are OK with a PC in your brewery and don't want to do as much DIY. If you want to be able to sense more things (like vessel volumes) and you're good with a lot of DIY, then the Brewtroller will do more for you. The Brewtroller is very close to being a "push to brew" system but can be programmed to just monitor if you want.
 
The Brewtroller has integrated PiD loops.

Oh crap!! Now I've got to re-plan all my half-assed previous tentative plans!!??:(

Listen, somebody better just post a REALLY easy tutorial on this brewtroller thing before I go postal and take out the city hall. :(

I have a heating element and two march pumps. The mission, should you choose to accept it is to guide me through the build of a kickass HERMS that brews my beer and fills out my tax returns. You all have one week from when I say go.


GO!!!!:D
 
Yeah, I'm a Computer Engineer, too. It's just this BrewTroller looks like a nice little package at a decent price, about half what the BCS cost.

I think the BrewTroller will interface with a PC, I saw mention of an optional USB port. Need to read more on their site. It would be REALLY nice to have a bluetooth or even WiFi option.
 
I have no knowledge of the brewtroller. A casual look at the website doesn't really give me a clear indication of how it works, or what it requires (ssrs, etc). Looks like a hell of a lot of assembly to end up with something that requires you to deal with a tiny screen from a 1970's calculator....

The 460 on the other hand is simple to use and program and can easily monitor volume sensors as well.

I've been using it for a few months now and love it. Yes, you have to have your PC to brew, but I wouldn't brew without one anyway. I have my 460 integrated into my wireless network. This allows me not only to keep my laptop a safe distance from the kettles while brewing, I can monitor my fermentation temps from my couch.:ban:

BrewDevil%20Build%20288.jpg


Michael

The Brewtroller can be setup to use PID or just straight ON/OFF. The BCS does have a great display but does require you have a PC in your brew area. Some day I plan on writing up a comparison between the two.

The BCS460 is a better solution if you are OK with a PC in your brewery and don't want to do as much DIY. If you want to be able to sense more things (like vessel volumes) and you're good with a lot of DIY, then the Brewtroller will do more for you. The Brewtroller is very close to being a "push to brew" system but can be programmed to just monitor if you want.
 
For the "anti-PC in the brew area" folks, if you would rather control the BCS-460 from your iPhone or iPod Touch, there's an app for that. Nice compact wireless touchscreen GUI.

Brew Buddy by Druid Hill Software

monitor1.jpg


The HTTP interface to the BCS-460 is open and documented, so people can write their own custom GUI's and other software if they are so inclined, just like np0x did with this awesome application.
 
Yeah, I'm a Computer Engineer, too. It's just this BrewTroller looks like a nice little package at a decent price, about half what the BCS cost.

I think the BrewTroller will interface with a PC, I saw mention of an optional USB port. Need to read more on their site. It would be REALLY nice to have a bluetooth or even WiFi option.

By the time you add a lot of the additional sensors and a case and power supply etc, I think the Brewtroller will end up pretty close to the price of a BCS460. There is a USB port option on one of the boards. There are some apps in process by other developers to interface it with your PC for display but I don't know much about them yet.

IMHO it depends on just how much automation you want, how much information you want back from your system and/or how turn-key you want it. The BCS is a much more turn-key application that looks like it would do anything you could need it to do. The Brewtroller takes a lot more work, but will do anything you could imagine or want it to do.

Neither would be a bad choice and both are more economical than the equivalent number of Ranco/Johnson/Love/PID controllers that would be required to get the same functionality.
 
+1 on figuring out what you want to get out of the system. Both systems will allow you to make beer.

Ultimately I went the BrewTroller route because I really like the open source concept, and the fact that I can literally make it from scratch, including the coding if I wanted to satisfies my "tinkering" needs. In my mind this allows me to very easily expand it to just about anything that I could want it to do.
 
System automation pretty much falls into 3 catagories,

KISS : Johnson Control, Love, Ranco, PID controllers

Packaged: BCS 460 with software package

Adept Tinkerer: Brewtroller, LabJack I/O interface, PLC hardware

Building the hardware is the easy part of the last catagory of automation, translation of physical system operations to code is the time consuming part of the build. In the quest for a fully automatic hands off system, the development of the code and monitoring graphics has consumed far more time than the actual construction so far, here is a link to screen shots of the directories of files and icons built so far in this quest Picasa Web Albums - Kevin - Phase 2 Brewe....
 
Kladue,
Is there somewhere I can see an update of where you are at with your automated system?
 
I'm now the documentation lead at brewtroller. We've got a basic implementation guide and some other docs there, I'm hoping to explain in more detail how you can put one together. Basically, you order a board, temperature sensors, some kinds of temperature wells, some relays, and add it to your existing setup of MLT, HLT, BK etc. You can control either all heating elements, if wanted, or a march pump recirculating through a element heated HLT w/ HEX coil, or a recirc pump through a RIMS setup. Mines one of the easier setups I have two elements that are automated. I have a 1650 watt 120v element in my HLT, and use the brewtroller to keep that (using PID software algorithm) to the right temperature, and I have a HEX coil in it, that I pump my wort from the MLT into the coil w/ the march pump. I still have to manually reconnect all my QD hoses to the right setup in between steps. BUT you can also control solenoid valves to automatically open and close at the right times to make everything hard plumbed. You can also setup pressure sensors to detect volume of liquids transferred, etc. There are a lot of ways to get done, what you want done, how you want it done, and thus, why I think brewtroller is the best bet, you can start simple like I have, and w/ the same control board, add on all kinds of automation. Right now we're also working on a logging feature so you can see things over time, like temperatures etc. In the end, you just need to decide what is the best bet for you.
 
I'm now the documentation lead at brewtroller. We've got a basic implementation guide and some other docs there, I'm hoping to explain in more detail how you can put one together. Basically, you order a board, temperature sensors, some kinds of temperature wells, some relays, and add it to your existing setup of MLT, HLT, BK etc. You can control either all heating elements, if wanted, or a march pump recirculating through a element heated HLT w/ HEX coil, or a recirc pump through a RIMS setup. Mines one of the easier setups I have two elements that are automated. I have a 1650 watt 120v element in my HLT, and use the brewtroller to keep that (using PID software algorithm) to the right temperature, and I have a HEX coil in it, that I pump my wort from the MLT into the coil w/ the march pump. I still have to manually reconnect all my QD hoses to the right setup in between steps. BUT you can also control solenoid valves to automatically open and close at the right times to make everything hard plumbed. You can also setup pressure sensors to detect volume of liquids transferred, etc. There are a lot of ways to get done, what you want done, how you want it done, and thus, why I think brewtroller is the best bet, you can start simple like I have, and w/ the same control board, add on all kinds of automation. Right now we're also working on a logging feature so you can see things over time, like temperatures etc. In the end, you just need to decide what is the best bet for you.

So, in place of a PID, I can just plug the SSR that controls my heating elements straight into the BrewTroller? Does it include a RTC and timers?
 
FWIW, I went with PID's. I deal with programming and systems engineering all day and night sometimes. Brewing is supposed to be relaxing, I don't want to worry about code, interfaces, bugs, etc. on brewday. PIDS are nice and simple and "just work."

Of course, I've been at the programming thing for a while, so I need breaks from it...
 
Yorg,
Here is the last shot of the system from last R&R trip Picasa Web Albums - Kevin - Panels. The touch screen panel is installed and needs OS upgrade before control program will function. After 15 years of brewing there were few challenges left so automation was the next challenge to implement on the one off steam injection Rims system I use. Gathering the hardware took a couple years, construction about 4 months, now the code for automatic operation is nearing completion after starting from minimal knowledge of Java. With evenings and weekend time to fill while away from home it has not been hard to devote time to learning and writing code for this system, a much larger task than first envisioned. With a background in piping and industrial instrumentation this has been an interesting challenge to see how much function can be fit into a 4' X 8' foot print suitable for a garage or shed installation.
 
There is an assumption that the brewtroller is open, so that mean's it's flexible. But that flexibility is presumed, and not that clearly available(IMHO). There is a generally accepted conflict in the world of open source vs. closed source. The open source world is open, but it generally doesn't always have a dictator(benevolent generally), closed source is...well...closed, but it has a clear leader. All of that is some what irrelevant if you are just buying it in either case and have no intention of actually writing any code(which is my general point if you want to stop reading now...). All that matters is that it does what you need it to do both today and tomorrow.

Sure if you can program you can write code for it, but that is not really the normal path for most folks, nor is it size that fits all. So in order to take advantage of that "openness" you need to go learn how to program the sanguino processor, and/or depend on the community to do something that you want. And before you can do that, if you take the cheap route you will have to do some soldering.

All this presumed slanderous talk about the brewtroller is not meant to be looking for flame wars from those out there who may feel responsible for defending the brewtroller or persisting on the path that the brewtroller is so flexible it can do anything. What I am after is to state, that I have reconfigured my brewery multiple times changed from HERMS, to infusion, used the bcs to control fermentation as a dual stage controller(simultaneously) while brewing.

And each time I have been able to (easily) configure my bcs to be useful in each case. While I won't say that you can do anything and everything with the bcs, I will say that it has very open way of thinking about your brewery, and can be setup to automate any configured brewery and is available for you to use it that way now with a minimal learning curve(compared to custom programming).

We are all individuals, so each has to find his own path, but the option of the BCS and the brewtroller both offer path's that are cheaper than simply buying RANCO's, PID's, and for me the bcs offer's the most directly and immediately available path to any form of automation from simply controlling a hlt. To a multiday slow fermentation temperature rise or drop for lagering or making belgian beers.

All the normal internet caveats apply, IMHO, YMMV, FWIW, AYBABTU
and with that, I say cheers, and go drink a beer already...I know I am.
 
Yorg,
Here is the last shot of the system from last R&R trip Picasa Web Albums - Kevin - Panels. The touch screen panel is installed and needs OS upgrade before control program will function. After 15 years of brewing there were few challenges left so automation was the next challenge to implement on the one off steam injection Rims system I use. Gathering the hardware took a couple years, construction about 4 months, now the code for automatic operation is nearing completion after starting from minimal knowledge of Java. With evenings and weekend time to fill while away from home it has not been hard to devote time to learning and writing code for this system, a much larger task than first envisioned. With a background in piping and industrial instrumentation this has been an interesting challenge to see how much function can be fit into a 4' X 8' foot print suitable for a garage or shed installation.

Is there anywhere you talk about the design and dynamics of your steam injection approach. I too have tried steam (converted corny). My main issue was getting steam dispersed evenly so as not to heat up in spots and denature enzymes, but to achieve very quick ramps. Moved back to HERMS to regroup for another assault. All in the manifold design I reckon, or in Yuri's idea of injecting through the steam paddles - which I'd like to see a good design of.
How is inline injection better than just an element, doesn't it remove the main advantage of quick, enzyme-safe ramping?

Cheers,
Yorg.
 
The steam into liquid flow method allows you to input more heat into the liquid without exceeding the enzyme temperature limits. The latent heat of the steam does the heating when the steam condenses in the flowing wort. One of the things about steam into wort injection is the ability to raise the wort temperature to step temperature as wort flows through mixer and hold outlet temperature by controling the steam flow into mixer as inlet temperature rises. Screen steam diffuser in mixer controls steam bubble size and prevents the popping noise associated with direct mash injection, at high steam flow the mixer makes a sizzling sound, at low flow no noise.
 
I have no knowledge of the brewtroller. A casual look at the website doesn't really give me a clear indication of how it works, or what it requires (ssrs, etc). Looks like a hell of a lot of assembly to end up with something that requires you to deal with a tiny screen from a 1970's calculator....

The 460 on the other hand is simple to use and program and can easily monitor volume sensors as well.

I've been using it for a few months now and love it. Yes, you have to have your PC to brew, but I wouldn't brew without one anyway. I have my 460 integrated into my wireless network. This allows me not only to keep my laptop a safe distance from the kettles while brewing, I can monitor my fermentation temps from my couch.:ban:

BrewDevil%20Build%20288.jpg


Michael

Michael; your reply is the exact reason why I was following Adam from the start of his postings on the BCS-460 before it came to market and later purchasing his unit for my brewery.
I'm not blessed with scratch building or a computer person hence why I chose the BCS-460 as it fits my needs perfectly. I added up what it would cost long ago to build a PID system vs the BCS and it won out hands down with my thinking. There are many other ways I can add taps offs off it to control more than the 6 heating elements adding stir motors and pumps at the same time from just asking questions from Adam. Always quick and polite quick answers to my questions no matter how stupid they were to him but a question I had no clues to solve at times. Hell I was a industrial commercial electrician mainly into big power cable pulls and pipe bending not a computer geek. I'm not picking sides on which manufactured unit is the better one just which unit fits my needs best for my abilities. A proud owner of a BCS-460 unit for the next brewery build.
 
The steam into liquid flow method allows you to input more heat into the liquid without exceeding the enzyme temperature limits. The latent heat of the steam does the heating when the steam condenses in the flowing wort. One of the things about steam into wort injection is the ability to raise the wort temperature to step temperature as wort flows through mixer and hold outlet temperature by controling the steam flow into mixer as inlet temperature rises. Screen steam diffuser in mixer controls steam bubble size and prevents the popping noise associated with direct mash injection, at high steam flow the mixer makes a sizzling sound, at low flow no noise.

OK.
But how do you control the steam? I have a steam solenoid valve, but I expect it would be turning on and off at a high frequency with the temp probe so near, and wouldn't last long as well as being annoying, if the system could cope at all.
Or do you have an analog injection method? How do you manage it?

Cheers.
 
OK.
But how do you control the steam? I have a steam solenoid valve, but I expect it would be turning on and off at a high frequency with the temp probe so near, and wouldn't last long as well as being annoying, if the system could cope at all.
Or do you have an analog injection method? How do you manage it?

Cheers.

You could control the pid's sample rate to control how often it looked at the temperature, this would have the net affect of controlling the cycling of the steam valve. Alternatively or additionally you could to control the element in the steam production side as well, perhaps lowering the amount of watts being put into the steam generator as you got within a close range of the temperature or duty cycle the element so it was only on for 10/20/50%(whatever makes sense) of the time as well for less heat production if that was a problem while still having the ability to use it at 100% when you wanted a big temp rise fast.

On another side note, when talking about injecting the steam into the liquid, is this to say that you wouldn't be letting the steam enter the mash, just the recirculating wort? If so, it would seem to be negating the most interesting aspect of steam injection to me, which is the ability to apply heat without scorching risk DIRECTLY to the grain as well as the wort/pre-wort. This I have always felt was the inherent advantage of steam over a herms/rims system. Would hate to see that lost in the mash(mix). :)
 
Both steam injection systems modulate gas flow to the boiler burner to control steam temperature, there is no valving between boiler outlet and mash tun. You could acquire a "Belimo brand" modulating ball valve and control the steam that way. If the contoller provides a voltage or current output use the voltage input type actuator, if it was on-off use a floating control actuator. The SS Belimo valves can be found on ebay from $10 - $100 by searching for "Belimo".
 
The advantage of the steam into wort method is the ability to control the wort temperature like the electric rims systems, but be able to apply the equivalent of 5-6KW of heat without scorching. The steam into mash method has been around for quite a while and I have helped build and test the method in 1995 with the same results that folks are finding now. Diffuculty in guessing correct amount of steam to hit temperature, frantic stirring to disperse heat applied to mash, noise from condensate flashing in dispersion manifold, and time spent waiting on pressure cooker pressure rebuild after steam use.
 
The advantage of the steam into wort method is the ability to control the wort temperature like the electric rims systems, but be able to apply the equivalent of 5-6KW of heat without scorching. The steam into mash method has been around for quite a while and I have helped build and test the method in 1995 with the same results that folks are finding now. Diffuculty in guessing correct amount of steam to hit temperature, frantic stirring to disperse heat applied to mash, noise from condensate flashing in dispersion manifold, and time spent waiting on pressure cooker pressure rebuild after steam use.

My plan is to apply 11KW electric heating without any scorching problem,
this is at 240 volts to the HLT, MLT and Boil keggle. Cutting back to 5.5KW to any two units at a time to maintain the temps when reached be it the HLT and MLT or the Boil keggle. No matter what the demand only 11KW of heating is used plus the pump and the BCS-460 with a couple LED control panel lights at any given time for the maximum wattage used just over 11KW.
With insulated keggles of 11KW heating or 37,559 BTU's of direct heat, no wasted energy in BTU's with flames into the air instead of the keggles. I believe in all electric heating no bottles needing refills at the crazy prices they are asking besides all the extra equipment needed with gas. JMO's and preferences using all electirc for brewing.
 
Herms and Rims systems with modest heating needs would be better served if electric heating was used, the amount of heat and method of use dictated gas firing for the steam injection system.
 
My plan is to apply 11KW electric heating without any scorching problem,
this is at 240 volts to the HLT, MLT and Boil keggle. Cutting back to 5.5KW to any two units at a time to maintain the temps when reached be it the HLT and MLT or the Boil keggle. No matter what the demand only 11KW of heating is used plus the pump and the BCS-460 with a couple LED control panel lights at any given time for the maximum wattage used just over 11KW.
With insulated keggles of 11KW heating or 37,559 BTU's of direct heat, no wasted energy in BTU's with flames into the air instead of the keggles. I believe in all electric heating no bottles needing refills at the crazy prices they are asking besides all the extra equipment needed with gas. JMO's and preferences using all electirc for brewing.

I agree but don't have the extra 50 amps of service to devote to my brewery so I guess I will limp along using natural gas. I abandoned propane as a fuel source and plumbed a tee, valve and quick disconnect just after the meter for the brewery. Natural Gas is quite economical.
 
I have the power a 70 amp plus a 50 amp spare that will become 60 amps for my system. I have collected 50 amp twist lock caps and plugs over the years for my welders plus spares as they are not cheap as well breakers for my panels. SOO cords of 250', #2 gauge 4 wire to #12 free and almost new 250' and longer being a wireman off one big job alone. Cord grips are nice extras to add to the collection for future use also. The electrical contractor I worked for was great to me, same age and intrests almost like brothers hence all the free cables that we ran by the mile. All temp power a lot was scrapped out due to time limits on the tunnel closures and was told to help myself. Hell the shop owner delivered my SOO cords to my house with the 5 ton flatbed 3 miles away. I did a lot of certified welding for this CalTrans state job hence well taken care of plus on call 24/7 as the contractor was from out of town. After 27 years a back injury put me out of construction trade.

I would go natral gas in a heart beat vs propane if I didn't have the power available as NG was the second choice. I have a 1" line along the wall behind the patio at the property line that's available as the PO used it for a big portable commercial BBQ system. I'll take a clean zap vs a boom, na just joking. I just have to switch around the heating from full 11KW in the HLT, then the MLT then back to both at 5.5KW each to maintain temps, pumps, controller plus LED's drawing nothing. Then again full 11KW for the boil to one 5.5KW element maintaining the boil. The BCS-460 will be loaded up with controlling all the elments SSRD's, pumps, HLT stir motor. Tap off signals to SSR's no biggie, all it takes is time and money.
Cheers, time for bow wow and bier tonight for dinner must run.
CJ............
 

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