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stblindtiger

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I currently have a locally harvested Wild Yeast that I was given at a homebrew club meeting. I also just made a starter from the dregs of a Cantillon Grand Cru, and I also have a 6.5 gallon bucket of Jamil's Flander's Red that has been aging for about 5 months now.

I pitched Wyeast's Roselare into the Flander's about a month after it's initial fermentation (4 months ago) and there still isn't a pellicle formed yet. Should I dump some dregs into it?

I LOVE beers like The Duchesse, Monk's Cafe Sour, Rodenbach, Chimay (Blue), and my absolute favorite is RR's Consecration and often pick up at least a bottle or two a month. I feel as though I have a lot of possibilities here and I am just not sure what direction to go??? :ban:

Any suggestions for the Flanders? Should I just start pitching dregs into the Flanders everytime I have a bottle conditioned sour? Would that hurt it at all? Should I pitch the starter I made from the Cantillon into it? Pitch the Wild yeast into it?

Or should I keep the starter from the Cantillon, build it up, and use that to start my first Lambic?

I've also been thinking about using the Wild Yeast to make a Consecration type beer with a Dark Belgian Stong Ale as a base, soaking some oak in cabernet, and aging it on currants.

What do you think I should do?
 
Ive never had good luck with cantillon dregs, bottles are pretty old by the time they get over here, usually it produces a very musty grainy flavored beer, minimal sourness

Freshness is the key with bottle dregs, use a US sour that is very fresh, they are great sources of bugs, one Ive found recently and is still very fresh is Odell's Friek, quick clean souring with lots of fruitiness and minimal funk
 
Ive never had good luck with cantillon dregs, bottles are pretty old by the time they get over here, usually it produces a very must grainy flavored beer, minimal sourness

Freshness is the key with bottle dregs, use a US sour that is very fresh, they are great sources of bugs, one Ive found recently and is still very fresh is Odell's Friek, quick clean souring with lots of fruitiness and minimal funk

Agreed, especially the Grand Cru which is 3 years old and uncarbonated.

Adding Roeselare after primary won’t get you much sourness in my experience. Russian River and Jolly Pumpkin dregs are great as well, although I wouldn't go opening up the fermenter every week to dump dregs in. Get a small jar of wort, put it in the fridge and use it to save dregs for the next month or so, then pitch it in.

The wild yeast starter is certainly an option as well, had the person who gave it to you tried it with good results?

Good luck
 
I'm not a huge fan of just throwing in bottle dregs without testing them. It would be a shame to get a bad bottle or even a good bottle but with bugs that produce a flavor you don't like. I like to test the dregs in a gallon of wort to see the flavors that those bugs produce. I like to test them over a long period of time because the flavors will change dramatically.

There are a few dregs that ryane and Oldsock mentioned that are very well tested so they are pretty safe.
Here is the post with the different dregs I have tried so far:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/easy-way-make-sour-beers-1-gal-wort-dregs-189748/
 
Thanks for the advice!

I'm making an English Mild on Thursday and I'll probably just use some of the runnings to make another starter to collect dregs in for the Flanders.

The guy who I got the Wild Yeast from has used the yeast successfully on Ambers. I had a real detailed information sheet on it, and I just can't seem to find it now??? I emailed the guy who gave it to me though, so hopefully I'll have the information on it soon.

Almighty, thanks for the link! Lots of good stuff to read there!

3 days in on the starter and it smells like dry sour funk. I didn't try it, it sort of scared me looking at it. I'll have to take a picture and post what it looks like....There really isn't a whole lot of sediment on the bottom, but there was a kraussen, and it has fallen now. I will probably add some more wort to it to try and build it up some more on Thursday too.

Thanks again!
 
Well, now I made a starter from the dregs of an E.S. Bam and a Bam Biere from Jolly Pumpkin.... LOL.

I guess I'll figure out what I'm going to do with them all later....
 
Here are the starters I made from the dregs:

I made an English Mild on Friday, and just took some of the runnings to make a starter with the Jolly Pumpkin dregs. Here are the results:

102_4791.jpg


The next picture is the first starter I made using the Cantillon dregs. I made the starter from some leftover Pale DME. There seems to be a definite "cantillon" smell to it, and you can see the yeast layer at the bottom...


102_4794.jpg
 
Looks good. It is pretty amazing how well some of the bottle dregs do considering for Cantillon they have been in the bottle for 3+ years and traveled across the ocean.

Good luck and please update when you use in a larger batch and add tasting notes.
 
I just made Jamil's Flanders Red recipe. I'm going to use Cal ale yeast first, and then once that slows, I'll rack it to secondary and add the Jolly Pumpkin dregs along with Wyeast's belgian Sour Mix. I'm also going to start soaking 3 ounces of medium toast french oak cubes in Cabernet Sauvignon. I'll change out the cabernet every 3 days or so until it is time to rack it to secondary. I'm hoping this will give the oak cubes a good cabernet flavor, as well as lessen the oak taste a bit. Once the bubbler starts to slow down, I'll rack to secondary (I bought a new bottling bucket with a spout at the bottom for sampling) and add the oak cubes, Jolly Pumpkin dregs, along with Wyeast's Sour Mix. I may even add some currants if I can find them.

I had a La Roja on Friday (and added the dregs to the other Jolly Pumpkin starter) and absolutely loved it! I am basically combining recipes from my three favorite beers. BYO's La Roja Clone recipe, and the Flanders Red recipe from Jamil's Brewing classic styles(Rodenbach), then adding some currants and Cabernet Sauvignon to be a little like RR Consecration. I'll have to see if I can find a Consecration somewhere to add some of those dregs as well. We'll see how it turns out!

I'm still not sure what to do with the Wild yeast yet though.... or the Cantillon starter for that matter!
 
Sounds good except I have a couple of suggestions.

1) 3 oz of Oak cubes is a lot. I used 1.25 oz for my Flanders red with the same type of Oak and the Oak is definitely noticeable. If you really want a lot of Oak maybe add some now and taste in a few months and add more if you think it needs it. For a Flanders Red the Oak should not be a dominant flavor, but if that is your preference go for it.

2) As for the wine, I think it is a better option to add to taste when bottling or kegging. To me there is no reason it needs to be added to the beer now.

3) Are you going to age this beer a plastic bucket with a spigot? I would be concerned with too much oxygen. Some people have gotten away with it, but just for a few months.

I have had good luck with Better Bottles and they make spigots for those. I just use an old auto-siphon or you can use a wine thief or turkey baster. I don't think there is any problem with disturbing the pellicle once every 3 months.
 
Awesome feedback Almighty! Thank you!

I thought about all the points you brought up. I'll respond to each one with my reasoning below...

Sounds good except I have a couple of suggestions.

1) 3 oz of Oak cubes is a lot. I used 1.25 oz for my Flanders red with the same type of Oak and the Oak is definitely noticeable. If you really want a lot of Oak maybe add some now and taste in a few months and add more if you think it needs it. For a Flanders Red the Oak should not be a dominant flavor, but if that is your preference go for it. I have the oak cubes in a seperate container soaking in some cabernet. I am planning on changing the wine out every few weeks or so to kind of lessen the intensity of the oak. I am going to do this every once in a while for about 3 months. At 3 months, I'm going to rack the beer out of the plastic bucket to a carboy and add about a lb or so of currants along with the oak cubes that have been soaking in the cabernet.

2) As for the wine, I think it is a better option to add to taste when bottling or kegging. To me there is no reason it needs to be added to the beer now. I'm soaking the oak cubes in the wine to lessen (changing the wine out every few weeks or so) the oaky flavor, and infuse more of a cabernet flavor to them. In BYO magazine it advises to do it this wayPOOR MAN"S BARREL OPTION:

3) Are you going to age this beer a plastic bucket with a spigot? I would be concerned with too much oxygen. Some people have gotten away with it, but just for a few months. I'm planning on keeping it in the plastic bucket for three months, then racking it to a carboy, and adding the oak cubes and currants.

I have had good luck with Better Bottles and they make spigots for those. I just use an old auto-siphon or you can use a wine thief or turkey baster. I don't think there is any problem with disturbing the pellicle once every 3 months.

So today I took a gravity reading (.012) racked it off the yeast, added the La Roja dreg starter and a Belgian Sour Mix tube, and changed out the wine from the oak cubes. The wine tastes awesome! I am going to let it sit in the bucket for three months, and then during the the 1st or 2nd week in Sept, I'll add the oak cubes and currants.... I'll change the wine out every few weeks or so. I should have waited until about 2 weeks prior to racking to the carboy, but I already started it so I'll just lengthen the amount of time the oak sits on the cabernet in between changes.
 
No Problem. I'm glad there are more people getting into this style of beer.

I guess my only problem is that you seem to be wasting a good amount of wine and Oak.
I'm not sure if I understand the difference between using less oak cubes Vs. using more cubes with less flavor.
Also how is the flavor of the wine different if it is coming out of the cubes Vs. being added straight.
I think that Blending is not used enough in homebrewing, but for sour beers it is the best way to get your desired flavors.
I think you should save your Oaked wine that you are removing. (in a CO2 flushed capped bottle in the fridge would be the best). Also make sure to have some more of the straight wine available at bottling. And then add the cubes. This will allow you to adjust the flavors when you are ready to bottle.
Most sour beer makers also have an acid beer (very acidic, (the best way is to have 2 types of acid beer, one completely lactic acid soured and one that has some acetic acid (or you can get away with balsalmic vinegar))) that they use also at bottling if they need to add acidity.
You may not need to do any adjustments but after waiting a year+ it is a good idea to have a way to adjust the final product
 
Adding more oak that has had the tannins extracted gives the Brett more wood sugars to chew on. Soaking the oak in wine is more about what it does to the oak (leaching out compounds), if you want more wine flavor adding fresh wine directly to the beer is a good idea.

Agreed on blending being a big part of making a great sour beer.
 
So do you think that the soaking in wine brings out different compounds than soaking in beer? It is a lower ph and higher alcohol which should help extraction, but I think with enough contact time with beer you would get about the same flavors.

Maybe the wine soak is a nice way to have some heavily complex oaked liquid in less time that can be blended in multiple batches.
 
Old Sock,
How much Oak do you usually use in 5 gals of Flanders Red?

And can you estimate how much wine you have blended into a 5 gal batch? Maybe some examples from your experience. I'm thinking this is a great way to add complexity that I need to start doing more.
 
I toss the wine out after soaking oak in it, it just doesn't seem worth hanging onto for 12-18 months waiting for the beer to be ready. I do it more to soften the oak flavors, I just don't care for the woody flavor that fresh oak gives sour beers.

For most sour beers I'm in the .75-1.25 oz range (talking soaked cubes). I've used a s much as half a bottle of wine in 2.5 gallons for a strong wine flavor in a 100% Brett dried cherry ale, and as little as 1 cup in 5 gallons for a subtle (but noticeable) addition to a sour blonde. Doing it to taste depending on the wine and beer is really the key.
 
Oldsock, so the oak cubes alone won't give a noticable wine flavor to the beer? I don't want much, just a little bit to be noticeable. I would have thought the cabernet flavor would replace any oak flavor in the cubes, and when I finally put them in the beer it would then leach those flavors into the beer. All it does is lessen the oak flavor?

Russian River uses Cabernet barrels previously used to store wine for years. So the original oak flavors in those barrels have leached out while the wine aged in them over time has left its "mark" in the oak. By the time Russian River uses them, I'm sure there really isn't a whole lot of oak flavor left in them (and even less after each batch is aged in them). I didn't think Russian River added any wine to their beer, it was just the complexities gained from the oak barrels themselves that gave it that wine flavor. I'm going to switch out the wine only about 3 times (once a month) over the 3 month stretch of time the beer is in the carboy. Trying to replicate that same process... So, what I'm doing won't leave a wine flavor in the beer?
 
You might get some subtle winey complexity from the soaked cubes, but in my experience it is not as potent as using an actual wine barrel. Not sure if it is an issue of soak length, surface area or what. It may be that you could boil 2-3 oz of cubes in several changes of water to remove almost all of the “wood” character, then soak them for a few months in wine before adding them to the beer (but I don’t know what advantage that would have over just adding the wine they soaked up directly to the beer).

Russian River at least originally blended Depuration (which is aged on grapes) into Temptation to boost the wine character. Not sure if they still do that though. I think the fruit characters in Supplication and Consecration make it hard to tell how much wine character they actually have.

Try it with just the cubes, but taste it before bottling to see if it needs a small boost in wine character.
 
I'll do that. Thanks Oldsock!

To be honest I never even thought of adding the wine directly to the beer.

P.S. I read your article in BYO this month! I was reading your bio, and thought, wait a minute... I know that guy! Great article! Made me want to brew a Saison this summer! Oh and McKenzie Brew house is right around the corner from my In-Laws house! I can't believe their Saison won the Great American Beer Festival's award... Multiple times! I'll have to stop by and give it a try sometime, I've never been in there before!
 
Oh and I just added the dregs from a Girardin Geuze 1882 Black label to the Cantillon starter. It had a pellicle starting to form before I disturbed it too. I should have gotten a picture.

I showed my wife the pellicle (like it was my son's first steps...) She wasn't as impressed as I was though... :ban:
 
Adding wine/liquor is much tricker for commerical brewers, so barrels are the loop hole, homebrewers don't need to worry about it.

Glad you enjoyed the article, just got my copy yesterday. McKenzie's is a great place, and the clean saison is one of their year-round beers. They often have some weird stuff in bottles you can take home as well.

Sadly pellicles don't seem to impress anyone but other sour beer nerds, I've learned to compare them to the bloom on brie (even though there isn't technically much similarity).
 
I just took a sample of this, and it has soured up nicely so far! I was going to wait until September to rack it onto some currants in a carboy, but I may rack sooner since I like the amount of sourness that it has right now!

I need to start keeping my eye out for some currants! Anyone have a preference for red/black?
 
I was finally able to find a local farmer's market that carried red and black currants, so I'm excited to use them on the two Flander's Red's I have had ageing.

Two questions though....

I am going to use 1 lb of red currants on the Flanders Red I pitched Roselare into back in December. I'm going to take a hydrometer reading on it today when I add them. I originally pitched Cal Ale yeast on this one, then racked it into a plastic bucket, added the roselare, and haven't touched it since. Should I rack it out of the plastic bucket? Or should it be fine staying in the plastic?

I'm also going to pitch the other Lb of black currants (as well as some oak I've had sitting on Cab Sav for about 2 months now) on the Flanders Red I used the Belgian Sour mix, plus some Jolly Pumpkin and Russian River dregs on back in May. This one has soured up nicely already, so I'm going to rack it out of the plastic bucket it has been sitting in and into a glass carboy. My question for this batch is about the oak cubes. I've used oak twice now, with poor results and I really don't want another infected batch... especially this one! I originally boiled water, took it off the heat, and let the oak cubes sit in it for about 15 minutes. Like I said earlier, they have also been sitting in wine for about 2 months now as well. Should I boil water again, and let the oak cubes sit in it for 15 minutes? There is no growth on them right now and they look fine sitting in the wine, but like I said, I don't want to risk an infection with this batch!

Thanks again!
 
To be honest I have never tried to age sour beers in buckets just because I'm afraid of getting too much oxygen in the beer and I can't take that risk on a year long batch. But I have read about people being successful. Although I don't know how much acetic acid those beers have.

I have never had a problem with Oak cubes. I boil the cubes in the water for 15 minutes, then decant the liquid and add the cubes.

For you I assume the low pH, high alcohol of the wine for the last 2 months has made those cubes pretty safe to use. I would not boil them afterward or you will lose the majority of the flavors.

Good update.
 
I'm suspicious that the permeability of the plastic really is a big issue (neither the math nor some anecdotal stories support it), but I think the seal on a bucket is much riskier than a stopper on a carboy or better bottle. If the seal isn’t 100% you’ll end up with vinegar by the end of the year, if it is perfect your beer shouldn’t have an issue.

No big worries for cube sanitation in a sour beer, a few more microbes won't hurt anything.
 
Sweet... everything sounds pretty good then. The bucket and lid I used with the Flanders that I pitched the Roselare into was a brand new bucket, so there shouldn't be a problem with the seal. I'm going to rack everything now. I'll post pictures after I'm done!

Thanks guys!
 
Here are the fresh black currants! I'm going to add these to the Flanders Red I brewed over Memorial Day weekend.

102_5542.jpg


I was also to get some red currants as well! I'm going to add these to the even older Flanders Red that I brewed last Christmas!

102_5543.jpg


These are 3 ounces of oak cubes, that I have been soaking in Cabernet Savignon for about 2 months now.

102_5545.jpg


Here are the black currants and oak cubes waiting to be covered in the Belgian Sour and dreg mix Flanders...

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My first PELLICLE!!!!

Awww...... it's just a Baaaaaby..

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1.004 in just about 3 months! (It started out at 1.060!)

102_5548.jpg


Here is pellicle #2!!!! This is the older of the two Flanders I have going right now. It was actually my very last extract recipe, but my first whole boil (5.5 gallons). I originally pitched some Cal Ale yeast into it, and then once that started to slow down, I racked it to secondary and pitched Roselare and an ounce of oak cubes.

102_5551.jpg


The Flanders that I started with Cal Ale yeast, and then racked to secondary and pitched Roselare into (at 1.012) and has only gotten down to 1.006 in 7 months. The Flanders I pitched the Belgian Sour and other various dregs into got down to 1.004 in just under 3 months!

102_5553.jpg


Here are my two Flanders set up for the home stretch! The one on the right (Belgian Sour and dregs with the Black Currants) should be ready by Christmas I'm thinking. The one on the left, I'm thinking Easter???? It is not nearly as sour as the other one even though it has been sitting for more than twice as long!

102_5552.jpg


Sample time! From left to right: The wine from the oak cubes (I decided not to add it and follow your advice of just adding it to taste when I keg/bottle), the AG Flanders with Belgian Sour mix + dregs, and the Extract Flanders with Roselare. Slainte!

102_5555.jpg


The wine was ok, but after letting it sit for a little while, an oily film started to show up on top of the wine? Could that have come from the oak cubes? I honestly don't know where it could have come from otherwise??? I doubt the wine had any oil in it, and the container definitely didn't have any oil in it???

The Belgian Sour and dregs Flanders was awesome! It had a real nice crisp sour taste to it. I'm real excited what the oak cubes and currants are going to do to that one! It's a little cloudy, and seems to be lighter in color than the extract Flanders. I'm hoping the next few months sitting on the currants should solve that, and hopefully it won't get much more sour since I racked it out of the bucket.

The Extract Flanders was really clear, and had a nice red color, however, it wasn't very sour yet. I'm going to let it sit on the currants until Easter. Hopefully by then the Roselare will have done it's job and it will be the nice sour Flander's I was hoping to get all along. If not, maybe I'll pitch some belgian sour mix into it? Or maybe even harvest some dregs to add to that one would be even better? Worked real well for the Belgian sour mix Flanders....
 
Those gravities are pretty low for 3 and 6 months. My Flanders ended around 1.010.
What temp did you mash?

At that low of a gravity already I'm not sure how much more sourness or complexity you will get. Plus I like my Flanders Reds to have some sweetness to balance the sour. You will get some sugar from the currants but not much. I have had good results feeding the bugs throughout the year they are aging. You could add .5 - 1 lb maltodextrin or even better add some wort that was mashed very high (this can help you bump up the sweetness if you want). Remember Consecration is a 10% beer if you are really trying to brew something similar.
 
Uh oh.... lol!

I mashed the Belgian sour one at 155 for an hour.... the one I used Roselare on was an extract recipe.

I actually really like the sourness of the Flanders Red I used the Belgian Sour mix on (the one I got a 1.004 gravity on...). The taste of the black currants I added to that really reminded me of the flavor I get when I'm drinking Consecration. I'm not really looking to add any more sourness to that one. I am just hoping to add "complexities" from the fruit and oak to that one now. That's why I racked it out of the plastic bucket, and into the glass carboy. So no more sourness would be a good thing with that one.

The one I used Roselare on though, the one with the 1.006 gravity reading, I do hope gets a bit more sour. I've heard Roselare takes a long time to actually get that sour flavor to it. This one definitely has that sweet taste to it right now (not much sour), and that is why I added the red currants to it. Those currants seemed to be real tart when I tasted them, and that is more of what I was hoping to add to the Roselare Flanders Red. It's not very sour. It has a sour taste to it, but not much. It is definitely more complex tasting than the Belgian Sour mix, but no way near as sour.

I've heard that Roselare can take over a year to get sour... sometimes, up to a year and a half to two years. I was hoping that would be the case with this one...

Worse comes to worse, I can try blending these two. The one has the level of sourness that I like, but the other has the full mouth feel that I like. So they may be perfect for blending.

Either way, this is fun!
 
Sounds like they are coming along nicely. And I have come to the realization that blending is the best way to make sour beer. If I had more room I would do something similar to what you have and brew a new beer every 6 months. And tweak the recipe depending on what the batch before it needs.

I can confirm that my first pitch with Roselare is just now getting sour after being bulk aged for 15 months and in the bottle for another 4 months. But I am looking forward to the next batch that was pitched on the yeast cake.
 
It's been 3 months since I added the currants, and the one Flanders really doesn't have a pellicle so I'm thinking that one is probably ready to drink.

The one I have on Roselare has a nice pellicle formed on top, so I'm going to let that one sit even longer. I'll probablly check that one at Christmas time.

Roselare Flanders Pics:

pel3.jpg


pel4.jpg


Jolly Pumpkin dregs and Mix:

pel2.jpg


pel1.jpg


I am thinking about kegging this one and then starting a Jolly Pumpkin Madrugada Obscura Dark Dawn clone next.

I'll let you know how this one tastes in a few days! Thanks again for the help!
 
Kegged and bottled the Flanders with the Jolly Pumpkin dregs and oak cubes I soaked in wine.

The sample I took tasted real nice. The black currants, and oak cubes added some real nice complexities to it. It's still a little dry tasting, but definitely very drinkable! I bottled about a little more than a 12 pack, and then kegged the rest.

I still have the Roselare Flanders sitting on the red currants. I'll take a look at it again in a few months.

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bottles.jpg


Oh, and I saved the oak cubes from the fermentor. Any thoughts on re-using them? How many times have you re-used oak cubes? I figure the oak will retain the bugs, but not sure how much oak flavor they still hold. Also, how should I store them? I currently have them drying out a bit in a plastic container.
 
Why not toss them in the other beer as a place to store them.

I don't like the idea of drying them out and storing them. I would be questioning whether it would be a good idea to re-use them when the time came.

OR, get a quart mason jar and keep them in there with a pint of wort. You can drink the resulting beer (like a still Lambic) when the time comes you want to add them to another beer. You can buy plastic lids for mason jars; if you drill a half-inch hole in it you can put one of those fermentation bucket grommets in it and stick an airlock on it. If you don't have a convenient LHBS, hardware stores sell the grommets; you can find them in the specialty fastener area (I've bought them in Lowes before).
 
There was a pellicle starting to form on the wine, so I'm guessing they are fine!

I drained the wine, gave the cubes a good rinse in water, and threw .3 ounces into my Madrugada Obscura clone. The rest I covered in wine again.
 
Good to know... The pelicle looked like a Brett infection so you are probabl right. The next time I use some oak cubes I'll have to have some wort on hand to store them in like you suggested. What about Vinnie from Russian River handing out oak cubes loaded with the bugs he uses on his beers though? Anyone know in what form they are in (I.e. dry, or in beer) when he gives them out?

Thanks again!
 
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