Experts please help! Shrimpy Hefe-Weizen

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mcbethenstein

mcbethenstein

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I hope that someone on here can help. After I post this I will try emailing Wyeast and White Labs to see if the reps there have any help for me. Here is the background info: I Love Hefes, but I can't seem to make one that doesn't have this shrimp-like sulphury off flavor. I have experimented with different ingredients, different water, fermented high, fermented low, switched out equipment, and lastly tried kegging, but I still get the shrimpy flavor. So I've narrowed it down to the yeast. I have tried both White labs 300 and Wyeast 3068. Both direct pitched and made good sized starters. Used fresh and washed yeast and top cropped yeast...and still all of them have this flavor. At this point I am getting so annoyed by this that I feel like giving up on this style.
So what I am asking for is an explanation of the specific circumstances that allow the weihenstephan strain to produce excessive sulphur. And what processes can I follow in future batches to avoid the excessive sulphur.
I should warn you that I am a super taster... have been ever since chemo, and I would really like to get past this aroma and taste, but I can't.
I know that many fantastic hefes are produced every day, I just want to be among that crowd. Help please!
 
Ive found that it happens at low fermentation temps. I couldnt tell you the science behind it though. It discipates in primary with my beers. In fact i use that to tell me when to bottle. I think the sulfur is driven away by co2, so raising the temp to around 70 before cold crashing could make a difference. Thats my method anyway.
 
Try a bottle of a commercially brewed hefe such as Hogaarden. If you are a "super taster" perhaps the beer is fine and you simply don't prefer that style.
 
If you have a favorite commercial hefe drink it then harvest the yeast. I did this with FD in heat wheat and it is the best wheat i have ever done.
 
We actually enjoy MANY commercial examples... That's my issue. I can't seem to pin down why mine taste shrimpy and theirs don't. I know I have a good recipe... The one time it came out well it took 1st place at a local competition. Im usually not trying to rush them & bottle or keg too early. They usually have a few weeks in primary (2-4).
 
mcbethenstein said:
We actually enjoy MANY commercial examples... That's my issue. I can't seem to pin down why mine taste shrimpy and theirs don't. I know I have a good recipe... The one time it came out well it took 1st place at a local competition. Im usually not trying to rush them & bottle or keg too early. They usually have a few weeks in primary (2-4).
Click to expand...

What temp?
 
The last one was at 62 deg in a swamp cooler. The one before that was at 65 ambient. Before that 68 ambient.... I even had one I fermented in our pantry at 76-80.... Banana bomb, then came the shrimpy sulphury. I only recently started using the swamp cooler.
 
mcbethenstein said:
The last one was at 62 deg in a swamp cooler. The one before that was at 65 ambient. Before that 68 ambient.... I even had one I fermented in our pantry at 76-80.... Banana bomb, then came the shrimpy sulphury. I only recently started using the swamp cooler.
Click to expand...

Wow, that's strange. I did my graduate work on olfaction. I think there are a bunch of reports of chemo altering olfaction. It's so weird that the commercial examples don't taste that way too though. Any other beers of your give you that taste? What about the grains you are using for these recipes? Side note, Shrimpy Hefeweizen sounds like the worst idea for a beer ever.
 
Have you tried ramping the temp? For example, ferment at 64 till activity slows (only a few days), then bump up to 68 or 70? That would be different than fermenting the whole time at 70.

For me it's the change in temp that drives off the sulfur. This is purely anecdotal evidence and nothing remotely scientific. Though I suspect, as seabass said, it's the CO2 coming out of solution that carries away the sulfur.

Also, we know this yeast is a beast and works quickly (My last one went from 1.052 to 1.016 in less than 48 hours, at 64 degrees). So they finish quick and poop out. Raising the temp wakes 'em back up to finish their job. Again, purely speculative, but this has worked for mine. Loads of sulfur before, not even a hint after.

EDIT: I'm no super taster, but am very sensitive to off flavors.
 
TyTanium said:
Have you tried ramping the temp? For example, ferment at 64 till activity slows (only a few days), then bump up to 68 or 70? That would be different than fermenting the whole time at 70.

For me it's the change in temp that drives off the sulfur. This is purely anecdotal evidence and nothing remotely scientific. Though I suspect, as seabass said, it's the CO2 coming out of solution that carries away the sulfur.

Also, we know this yeast is a beast and works quickly (My last one went from 1.052 to 1.016 in less than 48 hours, at 64 degrees). So they finish quick and poop out. Raising the temp wakes 'em back up to finish their job. Again, purely speculative, but this has worked for mine. Loads of sulfur before, not even a hint after.

EDIT: I'm no super taster, but am very sensitive to off flavors.
Click to expand...

the OP said she tried several different temp and while they produced different flavors, the 'shrimp' was still there. weird.

OP, since you've gotten all this with the same strain, 300/3068, maybe give it a try with a different yeast and see if the flavor goes away. i know that's obvious, but if it works, you know it's the yeast. if it shows up again, then you have to troubleshoot.
 
(pouting) I know.... But I really want a good hefe. My wit is fantastic... With a very similar grain bill, and I just made a raspberry hibiscus Weiss with wyeast 3333 that exhibited a little of the sulphury taste, but it is now entirely covered up by the fruit. A local brewpub makes a great Weiss, using WLP 300... And his doesn't exhibit the sulphur... I know he ferments at 70. I wonder if it's my set-up. Or if the yeast is too old. I try to grab the freshest stuff possible. My other thought is that my boil could be stronger... (maybe the sulphur I'm getting is DMS derived)
 
mcbethenstein said:
I wonder if it's my set-up. Or if the yeast is too old. I try to grab the freshest stuff possible. My other thought is that my boil could be stronger... (maybe the sulphur I'm getting is DMS derived)
Click to expand...

how're your pitch rates? are you making starters? yeast can kick excessive esters and other flavors if they have to go through too much reproduction. i brew a lot of english style ales, and i've noticed that some of the yeast that kick really nice flavors when treated properly can be downright foul if you under pitch, or ferment them at the wrong temps. it sounds like you've experimented wit ha few different temps wit these yeasts, so maybe a pitch rate or yeast health issue.
i'm doubting it's DMS, that's usually perceived and a vegetal or corn-y flavor, and if your using quality, well modified malt, it's not usually an issue unless you're boiling in a covered kettle. if you are using a malt like continental pilser or the like, then maybe DMS could be an issue. in that case, a longer and more vigorous boil should really help.

edit: just looked back at your OP, saw that you played with different pitching rates too. sounds like you've really tried a lot of troubleshooting here. if you have the time, maybe briefly describe your process and hopefully one of us can help you figure this thing out.

further edit: a quick search for '3068 and sulphur' netted a few threads here on the subject. I'm reading this one right now. fairly interesting and may help you out a bit. it seems that this strain does kick some real sulphur, though i can't speak from the experience of using it myself.
 
So, I made my rounds to my 2 LHBS's.... And this is the consensus. At brew & grow manager & bjcp judge Mike Chaltry thinks that my protein rests (which i thought were adequate) might be excessive. He thinks I'm breaking the protein down too much and allowing amino acids methionine & cysteine to be present for the yeast to do their excessive sulfur thing. He suggests doing the ferulic acid rest, but skipping the protein rest, and going to a sacc rest. Then of course, following all the rest of the procedures I normally follow. Good sized starter, pitch cool and allow temp to come up a bit....
So I made my purchase (a temp controller for the chest freezer that is coming tomorrow!) and went on my way. Later I stopped at Northern Brewer, where I was picking yeast guru Jeremy King's brain. Jeremy seemed to agree with Mike. Only given that I am using German wheat and German pilsner, he suggested keeping a short protein rest in there, but raising the temp from 122 up to 131. So it looks like next time I try this recipe I will try the following mash schedule.
Ferulic acid rest @ 113 for 10 min (not 15 or 20)
Protein rest @ 131 for 10-15 min
Sacc rest @ 153-154 for 60-90 min

I think I'm going to throw my decoction mash procedures out the window, until I can get rid of this shrimpy sulfur problem. I will try to ferment low... As we really do like more clove balance, but I will use the swamp cooler with my fish tank heater to stabilize at 64 (the lowest the heater goes). After 3-5 days in primary or as it starts slowing I will ease it up to 68 to finish out and allow the yeast to clean up after themselves. I will continue to throw a piece of copper tube into the boil, and will try my hardest to maintain MUCH more stable temps than I have in the past during fermentation.

As I read a little more on protein rests, I can say that the beers that have had more problems with the sulfur have been fairly thin and watery feeling. There really is a sweet spot to all of this and with so many variables, that unless you are diligent, it can be hard to narrow it down. After that batch that won the award at germanfest my mash has only gotten longer and more excessive...too much so apparently.
 
mcbethenstein said:
So, I made my rounds to my 2 LHBS's.... And this is the consensus. At brew & grow manager & bjcp judge Mike Chaltry thinks that my protein rests (which i thought were adequate) might be excessive. He thinks I'm breaking the protein down too much and allowing amino acids methionine & cysteine to be present for the yeast to do their excessive sulfur thing. He suggests doing the ferulic acid rest, but skipping the protein rest, and going to a sacc rest. Then of course, following all the rest of the procedures I normally follow. Good sized starter, pitch cool and allow temp to come up a bit....
So I made my purchase (a temp controller for the chest freezer that is coming tomorrow!) and went on my way. Later I stopped at Northern Brewer, where I was picking yeast guru Jeremy King's brain. Jeremy seemed to agree with Mike. Only given that I am using German wheat and German pilsner, he suggested keeping a short protein rest in there, but raising the temp from 122 up to 131. So it looks like next time I try this recipe I will try the following mash schedule.
Ferulic acid rest @ 113 for 10 min (not 15 or 20)
Protein rest @ 131 for 10-15 min
Sacc rest @ 153-154 for 60-90 min

I think I'm going to throw my decoction mash procedures out the window, until I can get rid of this shrimpy sulfur problem. I will try to ferment low... As we really do like more clove balance, but I will use the swamp cooler with my fish tank heater to stabilize at 64 (the lowest the heater goes). After 3-5 days in primary or as it starts slowing I will ease it up to 68 to finish out and allow the yeast to clean up after themselves. I will continue to throw a piece of copper tube into the boil, and will try my hardest to maintain MUCH more stable temps than I have in the past during fermentation.

As I read a little more on protein rests, I can say that the beers that have had more problems with the sulfur have been fairly thin and watery feeling. There really is a sweet spot to all of this and with so many variables, that unless you are diligent, it can be hard to narrow it down. After that batch that won the award at germanfest my mash has only gotten longer and more excessive...too much so apparently.
Click to expand...

wow, sounds like you've got it figured out. it makes perfect sense that you'd do a protein rest, considering the base malts your using, but it also makes a lot of sense that an excessive protein rest could cause the shrimp taste considering the yeast used and how the flavors reacted with one another. awesome that you have a couple HBS close by that provide you with such insight, it's one of the reasons i choose the stores i go to. the ones with knowledgable and experienced brewers are invaluable to all of us. :mug:
please keep the thread updated as you try your new mash schedule, i'd be really interested to know if you get it figured out.

good luck! :mug:
 
I've talked to Mike before and while he didn't impress me too much, maybe I wasn't asking the right questions. You seem to have gotten quite an answer out of him...

Now Jeremy... he knows his ****. Great guy and incredibly knowledgeable!

We are really blessed to have NB right here in town...

Jaz

mcbethenstein said:
So, I made my rounds to my 2 LHBS's.... And this is the consensus. At brew & grow manager & bjcp judge Mike Chaltry thinks that my protein rests (which i thought were adequate) might be excessive. He thinks I'm breaking the protein down too much and allowing amino acids methionine & cysteine to be present for the yeast to do their excessive sulfur thing. He suggests doing the ferulic acid rest, but skipping the protein rest, and going to a sacc rest. Then of course, following all the rest of the procedures I normally follow. Good sized starter, pitch cool and allow temp to come up a bit....
So I made my purchase (a temp controller for the chest freezer that is coming tomorrow!) and went on my way. Later I stopped at Northern Brewer, where I was picking yeast guru Jeremy King's brain. Jeremy seemed to agree with Mike. Only given that I am using German wheat and German pilsner, he suggested keeping a short protein rest in there, but raising the temp from 122 up to 131. So it looks like next time I try this recipe I will try the following mash schedule.
Ferulic acid rest @ 113 for 10 min (not 15 or 20)
Protein rest @ 131 for 10-15 min
Sacc rest @ 153-154 for 60-90 min

I think I'm going to throw my decoction mash procedures out the window, until I can get rid of this shrimpy sulfur problem. I will try to ferment low... As we really do like more clove balance, but I will use the swamp cooler with my fish tank heater to stabilize at 64 (the lowest the heater goes). After 3-5 days in primary or as it starts slowing I will ease it up to 68 to finish out and allow the yeast to clean up after themselves. I will continue to throw a piece of copper tube into the boil, and will try my hardest to maintain MUCH more stable temps than I have in the past during fermentation.

As I read a little more on protein rests, I can say that the beers that have had more problems with the sulfur have been fairly thin and watery feeling. There really is a sweet spot to all of this and with so many variables, that unless you are diligent, it can be hard to narrow it down. After that batch that won the award at germanfest my mash has only gotten longer and more excessive...too much so apparently.
Click to expand...
 
I've produced some kick-a$$ hefeweizen's in the past, and I never used a protein rest nor an acid rest in any of them. That being said, I DID use US/Canadian malts, and not German malts.

I'm not really sure why someone would recommend an acid rest in a hefe. This is generally used to lower the mash pH to balance out the beer. This (in my mind, and I may well be wrong) would not change the flavors but would vary the perception of maltiness and hoppiness.

I'd revisit my recipe and do a simple one step infusion mash, ferment with 3068 and split it up with a simple ale yeast and compare the differences.

MC
 
Acid rests are recommended in the brewing with wheat book & brewing better beer to increase ferulic acid, a precursor to 4-vinyl guaiacol. Which is the compound that we perceive as cloves in a weissbier.
 
So you've tried different ferment temps, and it sounds like you've had the same experience I have. The lower 60s give sulfur.

Have you tried raising the temp after the main fermentation is done? I'd suggest getting it up to 70F for a few days after you've hit FG. I've found that the sulfur goes away in about 2 days. It goes from intense and vomit inducing, to not noticeable at all. I don't know if it is off gassing from the co2 from the temp rise, or if the yeast are cleaning it up, but it helps a lot.
 
seabass07 said:
So you've tried different ferment temps, and it sounds like you've had the same experience I have. The lower 60s give sulfur.

Have you tried raising the temp after the main fermentation is done? I'd suggest getting it up to 70F for a few days after you've hit FG. I've found that the sulfur goes away in about 2 days. It goes from intense and vomit inducing, to not noticeable at all. I don't know if it is off gassing from the co2 from the temp rise, or if the yeast are cleaning it up, but it helps a lot.
Click to expand...

With this last batch I did raise the temp, but it might have been too late. I added a few pieces of copper, brought the carboy upstairs to warm up, purged the headspace with co2 and even used my air stone with the co2 for a min or two to aid in "scrubbing" the sulfur. It went from fairly strong to getting faint, but still there. That's why I started this thread, to aim for prevention for next time. I think I might share this batch at my local club... It's still good. I might try to off gas the keg a few times to finish purging the sulfur.
 
Have you tried moving your beer to secondary and give a week or two or longer? And maybe pitch another hefe yeast. It may not be exactly the same, but maybe it won't have the shrimpy flavor? Also were White Labs and Wyeast at all helpful?
 
Ok, impromptu brew day... I dropped off my entries to a local competition this morning, and decided to pick up some hefe yeast (wyeast 3068.) I smacked the pack at the store and me & my little guy did some grocery shopping & came home. After talking with several of the employees I decided to scrap all rests except the saccrification rest, they felt the grain is well modified enough and have had good results with no protein rests. I decided to try to get a decent hefe first then tweak the process to get more clove later. So I mashed in at 154 for probably 75 minutes... I forgot to set my timer right away. I had conditioned the grain and milled at 0.035. I threw in some rice hulls, but still got a slow/stuck sparge. Boiled for 70 min and collected about 5.5 gal of 1.051 wort. Chilled to 70. And put in swamp cooler to finish chilling. Pitched yeast at 66 deg. I expect the fermenter to come down a bit more, so I turned the fish tank heater on to 64. I plan on turning it up to 66 tomorrow am, and will keep it there throughout the fermentation until it slows, then turn it up to 68-70. I did get much better efficiency with conditioning and one sacc rest than my last 3 1/2 hour mash brew day... So there is the first plus. I'll keep this thread updated with further progress.
 
Looking forward to your results.

I just brewed one 3 weeks ago using an almost identical schedule; single infusion at 154, start at 64 and slowly ramp up to 68-70. SO GOOD. Loving it. Hopefully you can brew an awesome shrimpless hefe!
 
Update: as it turns out 64 deg isn't really 64 with my heater. It really ends up around 62. So later sunday night I turned it up to 66. By Monday am the fermenter was at 64, with the swamp water at 63-64. Midday I turned the heater again. And again last night.... Note to self: must get fish tank pump to circulate the water. This am fermenter was measuring 64-66. Cranked the heater to 72, in hopes of the swamp water settling at 66-67 deg, and fermenter settling around 67. Last night we got "egg farts," I think this is a good sign. The past sulphur smells happened later in fermentation and were distinctly different. Like smelling pond water, with pungent shellfish floating on top. As of this morning the smell is already settling down.
 
TyTanium said:
Suboptimal.
Click to expand...

This was the previous fermentation. Not the current one. The current sulphur smell is like my brother ate too many hard boiled eggs, and I'm stuck in a long car ride with him on the way home from Easter at grandma's.
Thank god I no longer live at home... And that the sulphur smell is already disappating only 2 days into fermentation.
 
mcbethenstein said:
This was the previous fermentation. Not the current one. The current sulphur smell is like my brother ate too many hard boiled eggs, and I'm stuck in a long car ride with him on the way home from Easter at grandma's.
Thank god I no longer live at home... And that the sulphur smell is already disappating.
Click to expand...

Haha, yeah, I got that :) Was just lamenting with you over your previous batches ;)

Cheers for properly-smelling egg-gas!
 
mcbethenstein said:
This was the previous fermentation. Not the current one. The current sulphur smell is like my brother ate too many hard boiled eggs, and I'm stuck in a long car ride with him on the way home from Easter at grandma's.
Thank god I no longer live at home... And that the sulphur smell is already disappating only 2 days into fermentation.
Click to expand...

wow, what a description! :mug: it does sound a lot better than the pond water with rotting shellfish floating on top, an much more appropriate considering your yeast. hope it continues along well. :mug:
 
Do you secondary? Sounds to me like you may have a little too much residual yeast in the final product.
 
dalime said:
Do you secondary? Sounds to me like you may have a little too much residual yeast in the final product.
Click to expand...

i believe we've moved past that point with this thread. as you can see from more current posts, the OP is now trying a 3 step mash, utilizing an acid rest before moving on to the protein and sacch rests. besides, last time i brewed a wheat beer, i don't think a secondary was called for. clarification isn't exactly what people go for in wheat beers, those tend to be cloudy from the yeast left in them intentionally .
 
I can see that, but he never did address whether he uses a secondary. You don't secondary just for clarity.
I know some guys are for it and some against it; I don't want to get into that. I've had this issue before with wheat and non-wheat beers and what worked for me was knocking more of the yeast out of the finished product and giving it time. Particularly with Belgian and Bavarian stains that produce a lot of sulfur.
 
SHE aka me... Has done both. Lately I've been skipping secondary and letting it sit about 2-3 weeks after primary is done (usually cause its hard to be a mom and a brewer when that baby is a toddler & into everything). I was then bottling. I am just getting my kegging set up into use, since I was worried about there being oxidation or contamination at the bottling step. Turns out my shrimpy hefe still tastes shrimpy when it's kegged. I'm not against secondary, or even lazy.... I'm just busy. I am careful about transfers and the amount of yeast settling out after bottle conditioning has NOT been excessive, so I hope I'm getting the best of both worlds.

Please note, I scrapped the whole acid rest & protein rests, with a double decoction mash, in favor of trying to get back to the basics to pin down where this off-awful flavor is coming from.
 
Haha. I'm sorry, I should have picked up on that from your username. I'll re-phrase:
I can see that, but she never did address whether she uses a secondary. You don't secondary just for clarity.
I know some girls are for it and some against it......

Wasn't calling you lazy, some have great results with primary only. I'm just not one of them. I brew a lot of Belgian styles with high sulfur producing yeasts during fermentation and find that if I don't secondary I get off yeast flavors, sometimes like the one you're describing.
You said that you are a super taster; are other people picking up on this and to the same degree?
 
dalime said:
Haha. I'm sorry, I should have picked up on that from your username. I'll re-phrase:
I can see that, but she never did address whether she uses a secondary. You don't secondary just for clarity.
I know some girls are for it and some against it......

You said that you are a super taster; are other people picking up on this and to the same degree?
Click to expand...
LOL!
And my boyfriend/baby-daddy tastes it too. But even after it conditions out and he says it's fine, I can still taste it.
I can pick out water brands from a blind panel. Yep. I'm that good.
 
mcbethenstein said:
I can pick out water brands from a blind panel. Yep. I'm that good.
Click to expand...

got yourself a judge's palate! :mug: sure does come in handy, huh? the only drawback i see in it is i can pick up any off flavor in my (or anyone else's) brew, made it hard to RDW when i first started out. now it's great, i know when i perceive a flawless beer coming down the pipeline, i can be happy knowing that it's truly a worthy brew. :rockin:
 
Today's observations: so as of this morning internal temp is at 66. Aroma from fermentation is markedly better. Faint trace of sulfur, main aroma is green banana and cloves. showing much promise. However I'm not over the hump yet. The undesirable smell previously showed up between 3-6 days into fermentation. I hope everything continues going well.
 
Update: fermentation appears to be over. I've had the fermenter up to 67-68 degrees for the past 2 days. I took a small sample just a few min ago. I have to say, it's much lower in the sulfur, it's very subtle, almost imperceptible, but there none the less. I can say I feel much more hope for this beer right now... I do think dalime might be onto something with the secondary thing. I poured a bottle of one of my last Weiss' for my boyfriend and tasted it before swirling the yeast in for him... Sooo much better to me. So whatever compound I'm sensitive to, settles out with the yeast... Or is the yeast. Most commercial hefe's are filtered... I did take a taste of two other beers I just kegged, while bottling them for competition, and I got the same stomach ache that I get when I try our Weiss. And considered the first few pours of a kegged beer will be heavy on the yeast and other "trub" particles that settle out, I think i might be super sensitive to the yeast. But that still doesn't change the argument about my shrimpy sulfury hefe's, since I'm not the only one who tastes it. At this point I think I'm going to let the beer sit on the yeast til maybe Tuesday, then secondary for 3 days. Then keg and force carb. I'd like to take it to our club meeting on the 22nd, but that is entirely dependent on the last Weiss in the keg still sucking enough for me to dump it. If its ok, then I'll take that one to the meeting.
 
Glad to hear things are looking up. I went back to your first post and saw that you've tired both WLP300 and Wyeast 3068. Those are essentially the same yeast, so that may be where the problem lies if it's yeast related.
http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast.htm

You may want to try a different strain for ****s and giggles.
I have used 3638 and 3056 and both will give you high ester production if that's what your going for. I assume you are because you're using the Weihenstephan strain to begin with. 3056 is a little more subtle and the one I typically use to keep ester production under control, but either can give you a banana bomb through under pitching or higher ferm temps.
3333 looks to be similar in profile to 3068 but is highly flocculent, which won't give you that cloudy hefe look but would knock out more of the yeast.
Maybe try a split batch and pitch two or three different strains. Good luck and keep us updated.
 

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