E-Herms as a chiller?

Hi there!

Has anybody ever thought of using there HLT with a HERMS coil as a chiller? Basically fill it up with cold water and ice and recirculate the post boil hot wort through it to chill it? I just thought of this but was wondering if anybody else is doing it out there?

Yes that is exactly what I do. Fill HLT with ice + water, then slowly fill/drain at a constant rate (static volume).

A big plus for me over an IC is no sanitzation worries and super easily clean up (i pump hot water thru the system during cleanup)

I re-circ back to the BK to whirlpool as well, which helps clear the wort.

Yep, I did it. Once.

It takes 42 pounds of ice to chill 6 gallons of boiling wort in my system by doing that. Since the whole point of having a brewstand with pumps and the HERMS was to avoid lifting, I did it once and then bought a CFC.

What are the specs on the herms coil? size? length?

I have 1/2 x 50ft soft copper, i get 10 gallons down to 70 in about 20min.

I dont use purchased ice, I just have a large closed jug I throw into the freezer and reuse it on brew days.. My water is also around 40-45 deg F so that helps as well

Yooper said:

Yep, I did it. Once.

It takes 42 pounds of ice to chill 6 gallons of boiling wort in my system by doing that. Since the whole point of having a brewstand with pumps and the HERMS was to avoid lifting, I did it once and then bought a CFC.

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You probably could have used less ice if you only put water in there to get it down to around 100 before you put ice in it. Same thing with ice bath chilling, I was using 12 pounds or so but when I started using water first I only needed maybe 3 or 4 pounds of ice.

Check out some of Borderij Kabouter's "ditches" builds. I have one based on his design in my gallery, which uses the HLT as cold water tank, and circulates water through the heat exchanger in the BK, while also circulating the wort through the heat exchanger in the HLT. It's crazy fast, but requires alot of water and ice management.

The HLT as cold source with wort running through it is a great way to chill, it will require alot of agitation and ice in the HLT however. It would work much better if you could chill to below 150 with tap water, then change to the iced HLT recirculation. It slows down your cooling when you continuously heat up your cold water source.

Thanks everyone for your responses!

I was originally going to make my HEX moveable between the HLT and BK so that I can use it as an immersion chiller, similar to this guys setup:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/e-herms-build-4500w-elements-pics-310259/

But now that I bought two pumps instead of one, I am planning on doing what you are talking about, and using the HLT as chilling vessel. I figure I can have one pump recirculating wort through the HEX and back to the BK. The other pump will recirculate the water in the HLT to keep it agitated. I’ll use water from the tap to bring the temp down from boiling quickly (maybe to 130-140) then transfer the (now heated) tapwater over to my (emptied and shop-vacced) MLT and add oxyclean to clean it. Then fill the HLT up with new tapwater and add ice to bring the wort down to pitching temps. Once the wort is at pitching temp, transfer to fermenter. Then transfer Oxyclean solution from MLT to BK to clean it. Use the second batch of chill water in the HLT as a rinse (starsan optional) through the MLT and then the BK.

At least this is how I picture it going in my head. There might need to be more than one batch of chill water, and it would probably be best to just keep the tapwater flowing constantly so I have the highest temp differential (maybe cycle the first 10 gallons into the MLT since it will be the hottest, then just dump or recirc the rest until I get down to 130-140).

One thing I think I will definitely need here is a hop spider. I can see things getting very ugly if the pumps/HEX gets clogged up.

kpr121 said:

I was originally going to make my HEX moveable between the HLT and BK so that I can use it as an immersion chiller, similar to this guys setup:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/e-herms-build-4500w-elements-pics-310259/

But now that I bought two pumps instead of one, I am planning on doing what you are talking about, and using the HLT as chilling vessel. I figure I can have one pump recirculating wort through the HEX and back to the BK. The other pump will recirculate the water in the HLT to keep it agitated. I’ll use water from the tap to bring the temp down from boiling quickly (maybe to 130-140) then transfer the (now heated) tapwater over to my (emptied and shop-vacced) MLT and add oxyclean to clean it. Then fill the HLT up with new tapwater and add ice to bring the wort down to pitching temps. Once the wort is at pitching temp, transfer to fermenter. Then transfer Oxyclean solution from MLT to BK to clean it. Use the second batch of chill water in the HLT as a rinse (starsan optional) through the MLT and then the BK.

At least this is how I picture it going in my head. There might need to be more than one batch of chill water, and it would probably be best to just keep the tapwater flowing constantly so I have the highest temp differential (maybe cycle the first 10 gallons into the MLT since it will be the hottest, then just dump or recirc the rest until I get down to 130-140).

One thing I think I will definitely need here is a hop spider. I can see things getting very ugly if the pumps/HEX gets clogged up.

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I have a suggestion for your situation. Reverse the pumps and flow situation and you will have a more manageable chill. I have tried both ways and here's what helps:
dedicate one pump to recirculating the wort in the kettle only. This is the "jamil-chiller" setup you may know about.
one pump pushing cold water from the HLT through the immersion chiller in the BK.
During the first part of the chill, you can route the chilling water out into a separate vessel so that you don't warm up the HLT. (keep in mind during this time that the HLT does not need to be agitated whatsoever)
At a certain point route the spent chilling water back into the HLT, which will allow you to add back ice to make up the water you lost, and it will keep the HLT temp even to make full use of the ice.

Pro's for the jamil-chiller setup with HLT cold tank are:
Your plumbing changes during chill are minimal
No extra sanitizing of post-boil equipment is needed
Comparatively simplified cleaning

For those reasons I think the removable HEX, which can be re-purposed as an immersion chiller in the BK, is the ideal HERMS setup.

Hmm. That was how I was originally planning on setting it up. Please don’t take the following comments as argumentative at all, it is not my intention. I would like to hear additional feedback from everyone with experience either or both ways. I am legitimately trying to come up with a solution that will work best for my process, and others with similar setups.

Here’s my rationale on your three Pro’s:

Budzu said:

Your plumbing changes during chill are minimal

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I use silicone hoses with camlocks on all vessels so it will be just swapping connections, which isn’t terrible. If I am going to reuse the chilling water as cleaning solution, wouldn’t I have to swap out just as many connections if I moved the HEX into the BK? I sketched out a flow diagram (I may try to upload it later) and either way the only “mid-flow” change I will need is to move the output hose once my MLT is filled up. I did discover that I will need 3 additional female camlock hoses, but they will not need to be silicone for the chilling water.

Budzu said:

No extra sanitizing of post-boil equipment is needed

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Sanitizing wouldn’t bother me since I can just recirculate boiling wort into/out of the HEX during the last 15 minutes of the boil.

Budzu said:

Comparatively simplified cleaning

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Cleaning, I guess you got me…. But, I could just pump Oxyclean then rinse water through the HEX after the wort is in the fermenter, prior to pumping to the BK. I guess I could make the point that it will be easier to clean the inside instead of outside, since I can be sure that there is considerable flow over the entire surface area of the inside diameter of pipe during transfer of ~15 gallons of oxyclean, as opposed to soaking or scrubbing all of the external surface area.

Another argument for YOUR setup actually... it may enable you to have a better whirlpool, if you're going that way. No immersion chiller in the kettle means better rotation, and possibly a better cone.
All it takes to make something work is a good process that isn't helter skelter. Your plan kpr, with a good process, should chill just as effectively as the whirlpool immersion.

Budzu said:

During the first part of the chill, you can route the chilling water out into a separate vessel so that you don't warm up the HLT. (keep in mind during this time that the HLT does not need to be agitated whatsoever)

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To me, this could be the take home point to moving the HEX to the BK to be used as an IC (I sound like I'm in some government agency with all these acronyms). Temperature delta is the biggest factor in these types of heat exchangers, and if the HEX is in the HLT, the entire volume of chill water is heating up slowly, which will decrease the delta.

Ha, now we are arguing for each other's designs! See homebrewers are really the friendliest people!

I have been considering using my HLT as a pre-chiller and pump my wort through the HERMS coil.....didnt think about how the inside of the HERMS COIL wouldnt be sanitary since using it for the mash....

I know it may seem easier but I don't think using the herms as a chiller is. I was planning to do the same but stayed with my immersion chiller instead. All you have to do is toss the IC in 10 minutes before flameout and then turn the faucet on and let the chiller do its thing. I recirculate with one pump and create a whirlpool, which chills the wort quickly.

No ice, not refilling the HLT.

NewBrewB said:

I have been considering using my HLT as a pre-chiller and pump my wort through the HERMS coil.....didnt think about how the inside of the HERMS COIL wouldnt be sanitary since using it for the mash....

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You could recirculate boiling wort through the coil for 10-15 minutes to sanitize?

CidahMastah said:

I know it may seem easier but I don't think using the herms as a chiller is. I was planning to do the same but stayed with my immersion chiller instead. All you have to do is toss the IC in 10 minutes before flameout and then turn the faucet on and let the chiller do its thing. I recirculate with one pump and create a whirlpool, which chills the wort quickly.

No ice, not refilling the HLT.

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No ice, really? What temp is your cooling water at? It would take a god awful amount of water and time for me to get down to pitching temp with my water at around 65F. I do however agree that the IC is simpler and also more efficient.

kpr121 said:

No ice, really? What temp is your cooling water at? It would take a god awful amount of water and time for me to get down to pitching temp with my water at around 65F. I do however agree that the IC is simpler and also more efficient.

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My water is from a well and typically is 54F or so. 50 ft 1/2'' copper chiller. I should mention this is the chill time for 11 gallons of brew. After the brew gets to 130F (3.5 mins), I turn the water speed way down and chill until 15 minutes. Which is usually about 72F


With the herms it is an awful lot of work to have it be effective.

another thought is if you have a "two" vessel system where you have a mash tun and then your HLT and brew kettle are the same. you gotta use an interim vessel while you sparge so it's not really two vessels but whatevs. Essentially, your HERMS coil is just an IC hard mounted to your BK. assuming you have QDs on the HERMS/IC inlet/outlet lines. just hook a garden hose up at flame out, no need to sanitize a thing cause your coil is running tap water now. plus, your HLT/BK pro'lly already has a recirc for maintaining temp. this can double as a whirlpool for chilling. use alot less water and ice. Since you got pumps you're gonna want to recirc a bucket of ice water thru the coil after you get to ~100°F.