How do I treat this water??

I downloaded the EZ Water Calculator. http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/ and it hasn't turned out to be very EZ.

I can't seem to dial in a level where I have an acceptable pH (under 5.6) and an acceptable ratio of Chloride/Sulfate. Either I add a bunch of salts to bring the pH down (which plummets my Chloride/Sulfate) or else I have too high a pH.

Does anybody have experience who can help me out? If you're using the calulator, my water is:
14 11 41 16 53 114(alkalinity) for the A column
4.25 gallons mash water, 1.5 sparge water
Malts:
11lb Maris Otter
1 lb Crystal 40
0.75 lb Pilsner
0.25 lb Other

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

You need to use some acid malt or lactic acid, and it probably wouldn't hurt to dilute your water with RO/distilled.

afr0byte, thanks for the reply.

If I filter my water with a carbon filter, will anything change for this chemistry stuff or will it help?

The carbon filter will remove a lot of the particulates, but then you don't know your starting point for water treatment.

Either go with your tap water and treat it, or go with RO water and treat it. It's easiest to start with water where you know the profile.

seanppp said:

afr0byte, thanks for the reply.

If I filter my water with a carbon filter, will anything change for this chemistry stuff or will it help?

Click to expand...

No, it won't change the calcium/sulfate/chloride/alkalinity/sodium.

seanppp said:

I can't seem to dial in a level where I have an acceptable pH (under 5.6) and an acceptable ratio of Chloride/Sulfate.

Click to expand...

You can't really rely on a spreadsheet to give you an accurate estimate of mash pH. It is a rather complicated problem. You really need to measure the actual mash pH realized in the mash tun using a properly calibrated meter. Also there really is no such thing as an 'acceptable ratio of Chloride/Sulfate' unless you are doing lagers in which case ∞ is desirable (i.e. no sulfate) and really even then it is a matter of personal taste.

seanppp said:

Either I add a bunch of salts to bring the pH down (which plummets my Chloride/Sulfate) or else I have too high a pH.

Click to expand...

Calcium isn't really a terribly effective means of reducing mash pH though it can be used to trim it. Acid, in the form of sauermalz or lactic acid or phosphoric acid are much more effective and is required for most beers.

You didn't label any of the ions except alkalinity but that is definitely high and will require some action to reduce it. Dilution with RO is one thing that works (the Primer in the sticies here may be helpful).

You've fallen into the trap of trying to use minerals to address your pH. Don't worry, even the book writers don't make this clear. You need to separate these two issues; taste gets addressed by minerals (drink some San Pelligrino and you'll see what minerals do to water!) while pH is addressed by adding phosphoric or lactic acid or acidulated malt. If your water is more alkaline, you need too use more acid or cut it with some distilled/RO water.

If you're using the Residual Alkalinity nomograph thing, ignore it -- because practically speaking it has nothing to do with pH and will lead you down the wrong path.

Thanks for all the replies everybody. Great point SpeedYellow, I totally get what you're saying now.

So, if I run my tap water through a carbon filter, throw enough acid in there to bring my pH to the right spot, and mix in a few salts to get my ions in range, I'm good! Is this correct (mostly, I want to make sure I can use the carbon filter, as afr0byte said)?

seanppp said:

Thanks for all the replies everybody. Great point SpeedYellow, I totally get what you're saying now.

So, if I run my tap water through a carbon filter, throw enough acid in there to bring my pH to the right spot, and mix in a few salts to get my ions in range, I'm good! Is this correct (mostly, I want to make sure I can use the carbon filter, as afr0byte said)?

Click to expand...

Yes, mostly! You want to add enough acid to bring your pH to the correct level but not so much strong flavored acid that it makes an impact. If you have to use a ton of acid malt or lactic acid to get t your pH, try using phosphoric acid and/or cutting your water with distilled water to avoid a flavor impact.

Don't go too crazy with the minerals unless you really fully understand the flavor impact. If you're not sure, i'd advise against it. Less is more here.

Your alkalinity of 114 means you'll definitely need a fair amount of acid or RO dilution. Guys here will suggest some RO dilution if alkalinity is over 50, but Chicago water is 107 and I don't think our breweries are cutting the water with RO. 2-3% acidulated malt typically gets me where I need to be. But you have some substantial other ions so some RO may do you good, depending on style.

SpeedYellow said:

Guys here will suggest some RO dilution if alkalinity is over 50,

Click to expand...

Keep in mind that there are several reasons for such a recommendation.

1. Get the alkalinity down (the obvious one)
2. It's often the simplest approach. I can make you any physically realizable ion profile you want by a combination of salt additions and dilutions with DI water but it is much easier, IMO, to just use RO and build from a 'clean sheet of paper' than do the elaborate calculations necessary to tailor an existing water.
3. Treatment of existing water requires that you know what's in it which requires analysis before each brew in places where the water is variable. RO eliminates the variations. The salt calculations are the same for every batch and you don't have to do, or pay for and wait for, the analysis.

4. Dilution with RO to an alkalinity of 20 - 30 or so qualifies you to use the Primer which is a KISS approach to this whole question of brewing water chemistry. It is in the Stickies here and may be of help to you.

SpeedYellow said:

...but Chicago water is 107 and I don't think our breweries are cutting the water with RO.

Click to expand...

You might be surprised. I, of course, have no idea what any particular brewery may be doing but Colin Kaminsky tells me that he estimates that half his colleagues are using RO.

If I haven't said it here, I've said it 1000 times elsewhere: control for alkalinity level should be done with a decent, properly calibrated pH meter; not spreadsheets, calculators or rules of thumb.

Aj, those are all great points, thanks. I was just trying to keep it simple for the OP.

To add to my point about the misuse of minerals to address pH, I just took another look at what many consider homebrewing bible, Designing Great Beer, and even in the 2000 edition there's no talk of using phosphoric/lactic/sauermaltz, but rather using minerals to lower pH. Funny how far we've come in the last several years. But I'd bet ze germans have been using sauermaltz for centuries. Strange that it took us so long to figure it out and that the book writers never did.

SpeedYellow said:

....there's no talk of using phosphoric/lactic/sauermaltz, but rather using minerals to lower pH.

Click to expand...

Commercial brewers have been doing this for years. It just took a concerted effort to get it before home brewers.

SpeedYellow said:

Funny how far we've come in the last several years. But I'd bet ze germans have been using sauermaltz for centuries.

Click to expand...

A couple at least

SpeedYellow said:

Strange that it took us so long to figure it out and that the book writers never did.

Click to expand...

I think you'll find that Palmer and Kaminski have most of it in their new book.

ajdelange said:

Commercial brewers have been doing this for years. It just took a concerted effort to get it before home brewers.
....

Click to expand...

To which I believe we have you and a couple others to thank! You improved the quality of more batches of homebrew than you'll ever know, sir. :rockin: