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muench1

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Figured this would be interesting for you guys. I made the following order enquiry:
Gluten Free - Colorado Malted Red Millet: Yes
# lbs. Needed: (5lb Increments): 25

Gluten Free - Colorado Malted Buckwheat: Yes
# lbs. Needed: (5lb Increments): 10

Gluten Free - Colorado Malted Quinoa: Yes
# lbs. Needed: (5lb Increments): 10

Gluten Free - Colorado Malted TEFF: Yes
# lbs. Needed: (5lb Increments): 10

And got the following response:
Thanks for contacting us! We can gladly get you the Malted Red Millet an the Malted Buckwheat but we are out of the other products.

The price on these is $1.50 per lb

Millet - $37.50
Buckwheat - $15.00

Shipping - $40.19

TOTAL - $92.69

Could have it there in a week :)

Let me know if you would like to proceed. A

Also have to let you know, because we are not yet certified gluten free any or all of our gluten free grains may contain traces of gluten due to processing and handling.

Thanks!

So shipping appears to be in the neighborhood of $1/pound (at least to CA), bringing the net price to around $2.50/pound.
 
So I got the malt analyses. I'm no scientist, but it sure looks like enzymes are virtually non-existent :(

CMC Millet.jpg


CMC Buckwheat.jpg
 
Less than 5% conversion...laaaaaame. I wonder what their mashing techniques were like, though? I mean, at the lab. Maybe they just did a standard 60 min at 150°F mash; the studies I've read seem to suggest that a different mash schedule gets better results than the usual.

Still, maybe I'll hold off on ordering from these guys until after trying to mash some unmalted grains with amylase. I didn't realize how cheap amylase is!
 
Yellow Yam is an enzyme powerhouse, I'm thinking I might order their malt and try a side-by-side test with and without exogenous enzymes and see what happens.

The thing is that even with shipping it's not really any more expensive than buying straight grain.
 
Is yellow yam different than the sweet potatoes you can get at the store? I know that there are yams found in Asia and South America of the genus Dioscorea, which are different than the cultivars of Ipomea batatas that are sold in most supermarkets, is that what you're talking about?

I kind of doubt that sweet potatoes are a more cost-effective source of enzymes than amylase powder; if my reading has been correct, it only takes a couple grams of the stuff to convert enough grain for a 5-gallon batch, and you can get a pound of the stuff for $8.45 (about $0.01 per gram). I like the purist approach, but money is money.... Still, I'd be interested in the results of this experiment.
 
Yes, I mean Discorea as opposed to Ipomea, although both are supposed to be good. I guess you read the same paper I did, Effect of Exogenous Enzymes on the Sugar Content of Wort of Different Sorghum Varieties? It definitely seems to indicate that yield of reducing sugars should be monstrous from the yams.

What enzymes are in your "amylase" though? The enzymes at work aren't just one type of amylase. I figure the enzymes naturally occurring in nature would be pretty well proportioned, and I like the idea of a plant ingredient more than adding a powder additive. Also I figure the added fermentable(s) from the potato/yam could be used to effect. As somebody (I think you!) said, we should be going out there trying to find BETTER beer, instead of just trying endlessly to replicate barley :D

Worth trying both, I just really don't want to put in all the work to do a properly controlled side-by-side comparison.
 
This is great info. I have also read the article mentioned and linked to. I would really like to try using yellow yam (Discorea Cayenesis) but the article doesn't seem to give enough info on how the "crude enzyme extract" was obtained. How could a person apply this info? It doesn't seem that the researches simply added chopped yellow yam to the mash. Maybe a french press method could be used?
 
Less than 5% conversion...laaaaaame. I wonder what their mashing techniques were like, though? I mean, at the lab. Maybe they just did a standard 60 min at 150°F mash; the studies I've read seem to suggest that a different mash schedule gets better results than the usual.

Still, maybe I'll hold off on ordering from these guys until after trying to mash some unmalted grains with amylase. I didn't realize how cheap amylase is!

A proper reading of the listed malt analyses, contrary to the print:
Conversion <5%, would be conversion took place in less than 5 MINUTES.
A typo on the report.
A reading of several other CoA's indicates the Conversion reading is a time-frame test, speed of conversion, not a percent.
The percent of interest is obviously Fine Grind Extract.
 
i personally haven't used any of the above ingredients, but would like to just chime in on CO malting co. i got in on a group order here in denver with 150lbs of their colorado pale 2-row. they do a quality job and have a quality product (in the 2-row). i am very satisfied. just wanted to pop that in the thread.

hope you guys find yourselves just as satisfied if you place an order.

b
 
A proper reading of the listed malt analyses, contrary to the print:
Conversion <5%, would be conversion took place in less than 5 MINUTES.
A typo on the report.
A reading of several other CoA's indicates the Conversion reading is a time-frame test, speed of conversion, not a percent.
The percent of interest is obviously Fine Grind Extract.

Not sure what to make of that. The malt would appear to have virtually no diastatic power, so how could there be much conversion, if any? Am I missing something?
 
BTW, I figured I would take this discussion to the source and see if we can get some answers from the company. Here's the email I sent, and I will post here any reply I get:

Hi there, some other GF brewers and I have been mulling over the use of your GF grains for all grain brewing and there seems to a few questions that everyone has. You can take a look at the current discussion here at Homebrewtalk.com: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/co-malting-company-329283/index2.html

#1. First and foremost do you have any procedures in place to prevent cross contamination from glutenous grains?

#2. What sort of conversion can we expect with these different grains? If you look at the discussion there seems to be some trouble interpreting the lab results.

Others have been unsuccessful in getting much, if any, conversion when malting on their own.

#3. Do you have any brewers/customers that are successfully using your grains to brew gluten free beer with your malted grain as the sole source of fermentable sugar? Or are they using it as a specialty grain?

Thanks in advance!
 
I didn't even see Thanatos' post til just now, but I just got off the phone with Jason, the president of CMC.

First I'll clarify: The 5% conversion SHOULD indeed read 5 minutes. BUT that really isn't helpful info for us at all, because that's mashing it as an adjunct with barley.

Jason explained that they're experimenting the same as all of us, and they're not entirely sure why their DP and enzyme levels are so low. He knows these grains have enzyme activity because they definitely convert themselves while malting. It sounds like it could be a kilning issue, but I'm no expert, just hazarding a guess. He said that as far he knows nobody has tried to mash without added enzymes, so he doesn't know if it would convert without them. Obviously the analysis numbers suggest it wouldn't.

He said they just ran out of buckwheat, but they have 150# of red millet left, they have some teff, and they just finished kilning some German millet (which they haven't tested yet). Jason said they also have plans to do a batch each of white and red milo (sorghum). He also told me that if somebody or some group of somebodies can commit to buying a 500# batch, he'll malt anything that can be gotten; he's even malted sunflower seeds for a client before. Think about that one!
 
Well, that's good info. At least we know the current state of things since I never got a response from them.

Thanks taking the time to call them and post back here.
 
Well, that's good info. At least we know the current state of things since I never got a response from them.

Thanks taking the time to call them and post back here.

Yeah, Jason had my email get lost in a jumble of other stuff, but found it while we were talking. I think he's just busy. In the past my emails were answered very promptly.
 
I had just bought some of their buckwheat and millet that I was planning to brew with this upcoming week. Should I even bother with the multi-step mash to conserve enzymes, or just go straight to adding amylase?
 
I had just bought some of their buckwheat and millet that I was planning to brew with this upcoming week. Should I even bother with the multi-step mash to conserve enzymes, or just go straight to adding amylase?

Do you mean decoction mash? My gut instinct would be no, just mash it like barley but with extra enzymes.
 
You don't have the buy enzymes, you can just mash with something that has enzymes like sweet potato, banana, some other things have been tried with varying success if you look around.
 
I've tried sweet potato and banana both and never gotten more than negligible conversion. Even with enzyme formula I've never got more than 45% efficiency, but I've also never properly crushed my grains. I'm going to try again soon now that I have a grain mill.
 
I've tried sweet potato and banana both and never gotten more than negligible conversion. Even with enzyme formula I've never got more than 45% efficiency, but I've also never properly crushed my grains. I'm going to try again soon now that I have a grain mill.

I thought you'd been using unmalted grains mostly. Are these malted or unmalted grains you're attempting to convert? If they're malted, what method are you using?
 
Unmalted, but thoroughly gelatinized. I've compared efficiencies between exogenous enzymes vs. mashing with banana and sweet potato, keeping grain-type, crush, and mash time relatively constant (I used a blend of brown and wild rice and corn as the bit to be converted). In trial one, I did a 3-gallon batch, and used 1 lb 4 oz of sweet potato, 1 lb 6 oz of banana, 8 oz of rice blend and 8 oz of flaked corn, for a total of 3 lbs 10 oz of grist. The corn was ground at the LHBS, the rice blend ground at home in a blender. The rice and corn I gelatinized by boiling for 20 minutes. I then cooled, added additional water, and the banana/sweet potato blend, and step-mashed at 90, 125, and 153, using my brew kettle as a mash tun and using my oven on "warm" to keep my temps constant. After a saccharification period of 2 hours, I slowly brought to boil to "mash out". I poured into a second kettle through my BIAB bag as a filter, removed the grains, and then tasted the wort. It was starchy and only very slightly sweet. All told I got a total gravity contribution of 1.004 from this method.

Trial 2 I used the same rice and corn blend, but used almost three pounds of it (1 lb 12 oz of rice blend, 1 lb of corn), plus 2 lbs of boiled and pureed carrots. This I did a single-step infusion mash using 1 tsp of amylase enzyme blend (EC Kraus "Diatase"), again kept in the oven to keep temps around 152 degrees, again strained through my BIAB. The wort was much sweeter, with a total gravity contribution of 1.016. The carrots, I later discovered, are a very poor source of convertible starch, having approximately 1.3 ounces of starch per pound of carrots! So here, I really only had about 2 lbs 14 oz of grist contributing convertible starch. So, I concluded that trying to get conversion via bananas and sweet potato is significantly less effective than using EC Kraus "Diatase".
 
What are their prices like for grain? Just looking for general idea.
 
Their prices are good, less than $3/pound, but unless you want to order a lot (like 25 pounds or more), the shipping makes it more like $5-$6 a pound. I'm probably gonna give it a go after I've used up all my unmalted grains, just to see if malted grains have a superior taste in any way or give better efficiency with this enzyme mix beljica sent me.
 
Thanks igliashon. Which brings up the question "where are you getting your unmalted grains from?"

Especially since the other discussion is regarding those.
 
I get mine from local health food stores. Was going to Whole Foods but found a local health food store that has superior prices AND selection. I can get all manner of crazy stuff--sprouted rice, sprouted quinoa, flaked amaranth, flaked quinoa, flaked oats, heirloom popcorn, puffed millet, puffed quinoa, puffed corn, puffed rice, any variety of rice imaginable in 5-lb bags, buckwheat, millet, three colors of quinoa...it's pretty awesome, now I just gotta figure out how to use them! Prices range from $0.70/pound for red or purple rice to about $7/pound for heirloom black quinoa. Most stuff is in the $1-$3/pound range.
 
It's called Berkeley Bowl, it's an old old store that's about twice the size of your average supermarket, and they cater heavily to the local Asian population. I guess the market was built in an old bowling alley, hence the name. The produce section is completely insane, it takes up easily one third of the store and always has crazy exotic fruits and veggies I've never found anywhere else. Only place I know around here that sells dragonfruit, starfruit, winter melon (dong gua), loofa melon (si gua), quince, etc. etc. I've shopped there for years but I'd never perused the grain selection before with brewing in mind. Go figure, they're STOCKED. Which may actually be bad, in a way, because now I have all these different grains and I'm faaaaaar too excited about them for my own good! When I get too excited, my restraint goes out the window, but I gotta remind myself: be patient, keep it simple, don't go overboard.
 
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