My Circuit Breaker Keeps Tripping: Why?

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TheAleMaster

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I plugged in my kettle/element to my control panel for the first time tonight. Everything was going great. I had my water temp from 51 - 112 in about 10 minutes. Then, suddenly, the breakers tripped (both my 50a breaker in my service panel and the GFI breaker I have in a spa panel). Now I can't turn the element on without both tripping.

If I unplug my kettle/element from my control panel, no breakers trip and my multimeter shows voltage flowing correctly to my receptacles.

I have included a wiring diagram below of my control panel (please excuse its crudeness). My element is a 4,500 watt ULWD Camco.

Any ideas? Or suggestions on where to troubleshoot next?

Thanks in advance!

eKettle.png
 
It sounds like you have a short somewhere on the kettle.

Unplug the kettle from the box and use a multimeter to see if it thinks there is connectivity between the hot lines and the ground. You should be able to do this by just checking the prongs on the plug.
 
Oh... And I assume that the breakers do not trip wih the element plugged in, but the contactor turned off?

(I hope that's true, but I wouldn't know what to think of they tripped with the contactor off.)
 
Oh... And I assume that the breakers do not trip wih the element plugged in, but the contactor turned off?

(I hope that's true, but I wouldn't know what to think of they tripped with the contactor off.)

This is correct. Nor does the control panel itself ever trip the breaker - whether I have the contactor on or off.

I tested the cord. I set my multimeter to 2k ohms and then used any combination of the red/black probes on both hots and the neutral. The reading always came in at about .015. When I set the multimeter to 200 ohms, and repeated the procedure, I got readings of about 11.5.

Was I even testing the cord correctly? I have never used my multimeter on anything other than receptacles...
 
I tested the cord. I set my multimeter to 2k ohms and then used any combination of the red/black probes on both hots and the neutral. The reading always came in at about .015. When I set the multimeter to 200 ohms, and repeated the procedure, I got readings of about 11.5.

(Yes, it sounds like you were using the meter correctly....)

Ok.... then you definitely have a short. There should be NO connectivity AT ALL when testing the ground prong vs. either of the two hots (I am assuming that when you say "neutral" you really mean "ground" here, right?)

There should be resistance between the hots (the heater element), but the ground should not show any connection to the hot lines!

When I set my meter to check resistance, it shows a "1" until I touch two things that are connected, then it gives me a resistance reading. If I touch two things that are not connected, the meter stays at "1" to indicate no connectivity.
 
Yeah, sorry. I meant ground. I wonder where the short is at? And why didn't it short out for the first 15 minutes? I tried to ground the element to itself by soldering the ground wire to the base of the element. Should I clip that off and ground to the kettle instead?
 
Yeah, sorry. I meant ground. I wonder where the short is at? And why didn't it short out for the first 15 minutes? I tried to ground the element to itself by soldering the ground wire to the base of the element. Should I clip that off and ground to the kettle instead?

I think most folks tend to attach the ground to the kettle, but attaching it to the metal base of the element should also be OK.

As for why it worked at first and then suddenly had a problem..... maybe something melted as the kettle heated up? I really don't know for sure.

You have any pictures showing your cable connections to the heater element that I can see?
 
I don't with me. But I'm not sure you'd be able to see much. I can describe it fairly easily.

1. I connected my wires to the screws using some forks.
2. For the ground, I initially used a concept similar to this with the copper ring between the nut and the factory provided o-ring. I had that little tab a bit longer than what he shows and I bent it up around the nut so I could put a spade on it for the ground.
3. All three wires, the two hots attached to the screws on the element and the neutral attached to the copper ring were then inside a PVC coupling.
4. I then used JB Weld to pot the connections.
5. The copper ring never could get flat enough and was causing leaks. So I cut it off and soldered the little bit sticking out from the potting to the side of the element nut.

So I can't even really get to the wiring. If my description does not make sense, I can probably try to sketch it out in Visio or something and upload it.
 
JB weld should never be used to pot electrical connections. It contains metal and metal conducts electricity. when it got hot enough the epoxy started to break down as an insulator.
 
I followed you fine you until part (5) when you mentioned the ring not being flat enough and needing to cut it off. But, you are right that pics probably wont do much if it is all encased in PVC and JB Weld. :D

Are you able to detach the element from the kettle (is there a nut inside the kettle that you can unscrew?)

If so, try detaching it and doing the connection test again on the prongs. That would at least remove the actual kettle from the equation and let you know if the short is inside the potted part or is being caused when you attach the element to the kettle (I suspect the potted part is the culprit, to be honest.)

What kind of cord and plug are you using? Did you buy an electric dryer/range cord, or did you by cable and a plug to build your own cord?
 
JB weld should never be used to pot electrical connections. It contains metal and metal conducts electricity. when it got hot enough the epoxy started to break down as an insulator.

Yeah, but lots of people use JB Weld in this way and have no problems.

It could be the issue, but I am not convinced yet.
 
JB Weld's manufacturer very clearly states

Q: Will J-B Weld conduct electricity?

A: No. J-B Weld is not considered to be a conductor. It is an insulator.

I'm not sure how thats unclear
 
Are you able to detach the element from the kettle (is there a nut inside the kettle that you can unscrew?)

If so, try detaching it and doing the connection test again on the prongs. That would at least remove the actual kettle from the equation and let you know if the short is inside the potted part or is being caused when you attach the element to the kettle (I suspect the potted part is the culprit, to be honest.)

What kind of cord and plug are you using? Did you buy an electric dryer/range cord, or did you by cable and a plug to build your own cord?

I'll give removing the element from the kettle a shot when I get home. And I am using this dryer cord.

JB weld should never be used to pot electrical connections. It contains metal and metal conducts electricity. when it got hot enough the epoxy started to break down as an insulator.

If you could suggest another more appropriate material, that would be great. I may just end up redoing the element if I can't figure it out. I used JB Weld the first time primarily because I have seen so many others use it.
 
So you have isolated the problem to the heating element (or at least from the cord to the element)...does the receptacle stay live (no tripping) when you power up without the element plugged in?

Sounds like your connections came lose or disconnected and are causing a short. The reason it took so long may have been due to the time it took for the backside of the element to heat up to a point that it caused a malfunction. Thats just my guess though, unless your element crapped out on you completely.

If you can't figure it out, for the price it may be easier to just buy a new element and start over. I have no idea how you'll get that JB weld out to salvage the element.
 
So you have isolated the problem to the heating element (or at least from the cord to the element)...does the receptacle stay live (no tripping) when you power up without the element plugged in?

Yeah... this is mentioned in the first post. It only trips when power actually goes to the element/kettle.
 
Just doing a little bit of forward thinking, but what if the kettle is the culprit? How would that theoretically be possible? I have it drilled and mounted pretty much like anyone else would. I would think something in the potting would have to be involved as well.
 
How old is the breaker? They go bad too.
Yes, but he has two 50A breakers in series that are both tripping.

Just doing a little bit of forward thinking, but what if the kettle is the culprit? How would that theoretically be possible? I have it drilled and mounted pretty much like anyone else would. I would think something in the potting would have to be involved as well.

I do think it's something in the potted connection and not the kettle. But, I am an engineer... when debugging something, I like to remove as many variables as possible, even if I am certain those variables are not involved with the issue. :D
 
How old is the breaker? They go bad too.

Brand new. Purchased solely for this little endeavor. :)

I do think it's something in the potted connection and not the kettle. But, I am an engineer... when debugging something, I like to remove as many variables as possible, even if I am certain those variables are not involved with the issue. :D

From what I have read, I think you're probably right. I'll post some updates later tonight when I get home.
 
Have you considered the element is just junk? Those things can be finicky. The thin coiled wire could have snapped and it is touching the wall of the element. The insolation inside could have broken down and the piece is now touching the inside wall.

I would just replace the element. Cut the cord and re-attach with whats leftover.

I broke an element and had a look at the inside. They are fragile. Dropping an element on the ground before installation might be enough to sabotage an otherwise good element.
 
JB Weld is an insulator. It also has a temp. rating MUCH higher then your kettle will ever reach. JB Weld is NOT the culprit, trust me :p

You can pot electrical connections with Epoxy, as it does not shrink, it cures exothermically and it is essentially plastic. Look up the data sheet for whatever you decide to use, it will give you the specific di-electric properties of the said epoxy.

JB Weld can withstand constant temps of 500F (your kettle is much lower)
Dielectric Strength of 490 Volts/mil

JB Weld aint the prollem
 
If you do end up redoing/replacing the element, you should try the mounting method kal used which is described at theelectricbrewery.com. I used this on two kettles and its without flaw. Looks great too. Nothing is permanent about it, I didn't even use any silicone or weld etc.

I had a small short that popped my gfci when I first fired mine up as well... I tracked it down to the main power receptacle, where my ground wire had been pinched and made a slight contact with a hot.
I was glad I hadn't yet potted the plug or anything else and it was a quick fix.

Sorry I cannot help with your situation but I wanted to show you this way to mount in case you have not considered it. Good luck!
 
Thanks!

I took readings off the hots/ground last night without the element screwed into the kettle. So there's definitely something connecting the ground and then hots within the element "build."
 
Hmmm... more thinking. There is something weird here.

Your situation now is that when you plug the element in, BOTH breakers trip, right? That seems odd given that you know (via the multi-meter) that there is a ground fault on the element somewhere.

Maybe I'm being stupid here, but I can't understand why the main breaker is tripping now. I would expect ONLY the GFCI breaker to trip because of the ground fault.
 
I would have to think the GFCI isn't on the same ground loop so it's not tripping? or the GFCI is bad?

I had an inverse problem with my house. breaker didn't trip but the GFCI on the line did. I spent days and days tracing all the wires on that leg of power trying to find the short.
 
Yeah, both are tripping. Would it make a difference how the GFCI breaker is wired? I wired mine as indicated in this post:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/why-did-my-circit-breaker-pop-167042/index2.html#post1933077

I honestly can't make sense of the photos in that thread, but the GFCI breaker should have red, black, and white coming in from the main panel and all three should be passing through the breaker on their way to your control box.



I actually did not try to plug the element in after I had removed it from the kettle. I will give that a shot tonight.

I would suggest that you NOT do this. The element is probably dead, but if (big if) the element is somehow still alive, plugging it in while it is not submerged in water will cause a major problem. Crackling, smoke, maybe some fire..... Heater elements should never have power run to them unless they are in liquid.
 
I honestly can't make sense of the photos in that thread, but the GFCI breaker should have red, black, and white coming in from the main panel and all three should be passing through the breaker on their way to your control box.

I would suggest that you NOT do this. The element is probably dead, but if (big if) the element is somehow still alive, plugging it in while it is not submerged in water will cause a major problem. Crackling, smoke, maybe some fire..... Heater elements should never have power run to them unless they are in liquid.

My GFI breaker is wired as you described.

And I was going to make sure the element was in liquid - just not my kettle. I do have an element that can supposedly withstand dry firing...
 
I would have to think the GFCI isn't on the same ground loop so it's not tripping? or the GFCI is bad?


I don't follow you Grimm. What do you mean by "not on the same ground loop?"

The GFCI doesn't really know about ground. All it knows is that if some of the current that went into the system does not come back out, it has found a way out of the system and this is bad.

AleMaster. Unplug everything from the control box, turn on the breakers, and then press the little "test" button on the GFCI. Does it trip?
 
hmm, looks familiar, is there anyway you could post some pics of what yourdoing for wiring? i had the same problem, just a side thought, do you have your element on a switch , i had an element on a switch and wired the switch incorrectly. it popped both breakers everytime. you don't have your neutral and ground on the same bar? that would be an issue.
 
hmm, looks familiar, is there anyway you could post some pics of what your doing for wiring?
<snip>
you don't have your neutral and ground on the same bar? that would be an issue.

Yeah... I'd like to see the wiring of all 4 lines from the control panel, through the spa panel, and on to the main panel, too. :D Pictures are worth 1,000 words.

do you have your element on a switch , i had an element on a switch and wired the switch incorrectly. it popped both breakers everytime.

His schematic shows both hot lines going through a contactor. After that, one goes straight to the element and the other passes through an SSR.

Keep in mind that his system was working fine for the first 10 minutes, then it suddenly blew the breakers. This is not some fundamental wiring problem that caused an instant breaker pop.
 
hmm good point. the working then smoking is interesting. couple other thoughts just popped into my head, what if the element wasn't water tight after beeing heated up for a few minutes, water gets in and smokes the element. element no longer works, setup hasn't changed but element has a cause to be bad.
 
possibly. this is kind of what I was referring to earlier when I said that it might not matter what a multi-meter is telling us now. The initial problem that caused the failure might have caused damage to the element, which means that the short he sees with the meter could be a SYMPTOM of the failure and not the CAUSE.
 
Entirely possible that water got into the element. I let it sit for quite a while after I installed the element and didn't see any visible water leaks, but I suppose that doesn't mean there weren't any.

I will take pics of everything tonight.
 
I don't follow you Grimm. What do you mean by "not on the same ground loop?"

well I was thinking that the GFCI might not be grounded back to the panel, but that wouldn't make any sense since that would cause the GFCI to trip and not the breaker. my bad.

COuld be how the GFCI is wired?
gfci_connections.gif

GFCI Hookup: The GFCI to the left is hooked up so as to sense and protect other outlets besides itself. The one to the right is connected so as to pass normal power (no GFCI protection) on to other outlets.
 
It's not a matter of how the GFCI is connected to the other breaker as is done with outlets in the house to protect other outlets downstream.

A ground fault in his system would trip the GFCI breaker, but it cannot cause the other non-gfci breaker to trip. All it can do is cut power flowing further down the path (to the control box.)
 
gotcha, thanks for clearing that up walker, sorry for any confusion. i've only recently gotten into high voltage electrical troubleshooting. I'm more of an AV guy.
 
All right. The GFI breaker does not trip when I push the "test" button. It did when I installed it, but nothing now. I guess I'm going to be calling Home Depot to get that exchanged. Ugh.

As for pics, here ya go.

GFI Panel
Box
Lid

One small difference is how I wired the switch for the contactor in the lid. On the side where you see the black wire coming out with the yellow connector attached (the brown piece of the switch), I have another wire coming out of that same place and connecting to the upper part (the black piece of the switch) and then a white wire coming out of the upper part of the switch connecting to the neutral power distribution block.

The green wire coming off the PID is neutral while the red is hot.

Also, no pic of the main service panel as I did not want to take off the entire face of the panel. I'm confident in its wiring as I have replaced/installed many circuits without issue.
 
I'm very interested to find the culprit of this... I don't know enough or can interpret enough to find a problem with your wiring, except that there is no circuit protection for anything except for your 50 amp breaker. Perhaps there was some surge and something melted? That would cause a trip as described. Sorry if I sound like a noob but this really stood out as I checked your photos. Some of those components can't take as much current as is available to them.
 
All right. The GFI breaker does not trip when I push the "test" button. It did when I installed it, but nothing now. I guess I'm going to be calling Home Depot to get that exchanged. Ugh.

Well, that would possibly explain why both breakers would trip if there was a ground fault. (are you sure the main breaker was on when you did this test of the GFI?)

As for pics, here ya go.

GFI Panel
Box
Lid

How does the ground wire get into the box? Your spa panel looks like it is only handling the two hots and neutral, but four wires are coming into the box.

One small difference is how I wired the switch for the contactor in the lid. On the side where you see the black wire coming out with the yellow connector attached (the brown piece of the switch), I have another wire coming out of that same place and connecting to the upper part (the black piece of the switch) and then a white wire coming out of the upper part of the switch connecting to the neutral power distribution block.
I've read this paragraph a couple of times, but I'm not sure I understand it. Why are there four connections on the switch? Is it illuminated or something and you are feeding the switched voltage back through it to get it to light up?

What are the other things on the lid?
 
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