Getting the most out of grains

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fumanchu

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I had just finished converting a 5 gallon cooler to a mash tun. All worked out very well for my first batch, only there was a slight problem with getting all the sugar out of my grain.

I mashed 4 gallons at 145F for 60 min. Drained and sparged around 3 gallons at 160F for 30 min.

Grain bill was:

6 lbs 2-row
6lbs pale
1lb munich
1/2 lb crystal
1 lb pils

I only ended up with 1.04 gravity. What have I done wrong to get so little gravity from so much grain.

Any input would be appreciated.

thanks!
 
Your mash temp was too low/therometer is broken???? your hydrometer is broken???? the grain product you bought is the wrong stuff or old or whatever??????
 
Was the grain actually crushed? I agree your temps were low though. I normally mash around 152-154 and sparge around 170. What was the temp when you took the gravity reading too. Did you do the temp correction for your hydrometer?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, yes the mash temp was low but shouldn't there be more fermentable sugar available? I don't think your mash and sparge water was enough, your mash water could have been a little more and you should have sparged with 4.5 of 170 degree water. That would have gotten you a bit more sugar to raise the gravity.
 
Do you have only one draw point from your mash tun? Multiple draw points by using some sort of copper manifold at the bottom of the mash tun can increase efficiency. Water is lazy and takes the path of least resistance to leave the tun. If you have one exit point water will run diagonally through the grain to that exit point and will miss washing a lot of grain. theres a section in how to brew about this.
 
What is all this talk about mashing at 150F or lower to produce a dryer, thinner bodied beer?

My hydrometer, thermometer, grains were all fine.

My mash tun setup doesn't have a manifold, it has all the water going through the toilet supply hose, which i guess would affect it, but not THAT much.

Gauging from your responses I mashed at too low a temp. I had thought mashing in the 140's was what people that wanted a thinner beer or other enzymes being activated did?

Now I'm just confused.
 
I'll definitely take a look at grain washing too. I'm sure that's part of the equation.

thanks guys!

I'll add that beer is smelling mighty fine in the primary today though.
 
Ok, well, I'm mashing in a 5 gallon rubbermaid water cooler. The setup seems to be working well.

So the mash: Heated up 4 gallons of water to 145F, threw it in the mash tun, quickly added all of the grain bill, stirred for 30 seconds and sealed for 60 min.
I then checked the temp, which was 143F. Opened up the valve and let all of the water drain. I then repeated the whole process with 3 gallons of water at 160F.
That ended up with 5 gallons of wort with a gravity of 1.04.

I'm still pretty new to this thing and imagine I'd have done something wrong or missed an important step? Hopefully this is simply matter of mashing at too low a temperature and/or a lack of grain washing.
 
The temperature was definitely too low. Honestly though, that shouldn't have affected your efficiency too much. Mash temp is more indicative of the fermentability of the resulting wort.

Tell us about your crush. In my opinion, the crush of your grain has the highest effect on the amount of fermentable sugars your mash will produce.
 
Ahh, well I'm not able to crush myself, as far as I know. So I get the owner of the shop where I get my grains from to do it. I remember walking in there that day, he had one of the employees there do it.

It could very well be that employee didn't mill too well. And now I know to leave a mash go longer if I'm to go around the 140F range.

So why would some people mash at lower than 150F in the first place anyway? Was the article (John palmer) I read correct in saying that mashing lower than 150F yields a dryer less sweet beer?
 
fumanchu said:
Ahh, well I'm not able to crush myself, as far as I know. So I get the owner of the shop where I get my grains from to do it. I remember walking in there that day, he had one of the employees there do it.

It could very well be that employee didn't mill too well. And now I know to leave a mash go longer if I'm to go around the 140F range.

So why would some people mash at lower than 150F in the first place anyway? Was the article (John palmer) I read correct in saying that mashing lower than 150F yields a dryer less sweet beer?
Click to expand...

Different grains yield different sugars at different temperatures but generally higher temps produce less fermentable wort and conversely lower temps yield more, however if you get too low and for not long enough you may not get complete conversion

If you only heated the strike water to 145 then the mash temp was much Lowe due to temp drop with the grain absorption. I'm not sure of the math but you may have only mashed around 120, perhaps less?

Strike water should be around 168 to actually mash at 150ish.

Crush would be a leading cause, I know when I started milling my own my mag efficiency jumped a well as overall efficiency. My mill is set to 1mm and I'm consistent now.

You should also verify your equipment, calibrations and your sparge process as those factors play into this as well.
 
I'm not sure how you coud have mashed at 143F using 145F water. Assuming a grain temperature of 80F 145F water temp should have netted you a mash temperature of around 133F @ 1.1 qt/lb mash thickness (4gal/14.5lbs). If your mash tun was not at equilibrium (preheated) then the mash temperature would have been even lower. Also, I believe a 30 second stir was not sufficient - you may have had some doughballs or the water may have stratified temperature wise with the warmest water on top and colder on the bottom as the cooler and the grains absorbed the heat from the water. And, as has already been pointed out, your sparge volume should have been larger. However, if the fermentation goes well, you should still end up with some delicious beer.
 
The fermentation is going well. Down to 1.01, still off gassing quite a bit. Let the yeast do its thing for a few more days.

I don't really get the "should have been larger sparge volume" comment since I ended up with 5 gallons of wort. Any more than 5.5 would have just been thrown out because I'm not doing a double batch. Also, I only have a 5 gallon cooler to work with so I really can't put more than 4 gallons of water with that kind of a grain bill. It was almost overflowing, but that helped keep the temp up too.

Part of the problem might have been the 13-14 pounds of barley is just too much for a a 5 gallon cooler to handle.

I know the boil reduces volume but not that much.

Golly gee, I'm learning a lot here today.
 
The "more water" recommendation is quite valid. You ended up with 5 gallons preboil. If you're not boiling off at least a gallon, you're not boiling hard enough. You should be starting with about 6.5 gallons preboil, boil down to 5.5 and you'll lose a little to trub in the kettle and in the fermenter.
 
How long should I let sparge water sit for?

stupid question: Is sparging adding water to the mash water that has completed its time cycle with the grain? Or is sparging simply adding more water the grain bed?
I mean is it only considered sparging when you add water to a mash that's been running for a while?

Or nevermind, I can find answers for that on my own. Don't worry about it. heheh
 
bobby_m said:
the "more water" recommendation is quite valid. You ended up with 5 gallons preboil. If you're not boiling off at least a gallon, you're not boiling hard enough. You should be starting with about 6.5 gallons preboil, boil down to 5.5 and you'll lose a little to trub in the kettle and in the fermenter.
Click to expand...

+1
 
fumanchu said:
How long should I let sparge water sit for?

stupid question: Is sparging adding water to the mash water that has completed its time cycle with the grain? Or is sparging simply adding more water the grain bed?
I mean is it only considered sparging when you add water to a mash that's been running for a while?

Or nevermind, I can find answers for that on my own. Don't worry about it. heheh
Click to expand...
After you drain your mashtun the first time,you put more water in and stir,let set for 10 min and drain again.That's sparging.Don't get me started on fly sparging.It's just not right.
 
BigSally said:
After you drain your mashtun the first time,you put more water in and stir,let set for 10 min and drain again.That's sparging.Don't get me started on fly sparging.It's just not right.
Click to expand...

I usually fly sparge, but I have not been consistent with my effiencies. I am going to switch to batch sparging.


Adding water to the mash is your mash out. That needs to sit for 10-15 minutes.

Sparging is after you drain your mashtun, and add water to it to drain it again (add half your sparge water, drain, then add the other half of your sparge water, drain)
 
Just to bring it all together for you or anyone following the thread. It's huge so skip it if you don't want 101.

Make sure grain is well crushed. If you look at it you should find all of the grain hulls are split open, there should be little or no fully intact hulls and a portion of the grain should be nearly flour like.

Heat your mash water to about 168-170 degrees and add 1.25 -1.5 qts of water per lb of grain to your mash tun. I like to add the water first to bring up the cooler temp and then check temp. If its too high you can let it sit and cool a bit.

Add your crushed grain and stir it up with the water. This is called doughing in. Stir well to ensure there are no balls of grain in the mash. The temp now should be about 148-155 degrees. Exactly what it is depends in the recipe but if your not sure then shoot for 150. Slap the top on and let it sit for 60 minutes. You can check the temp a couple of times to see how well your tun is holding temp. If it drops more than a degree or three in the 60 minutes you may need to insulate it better. While its sitting you can heat your strike water to 170-175 (you'll need about 4 - 5 gals)

After 60 minutes drain the wort from the tun into your boil kettle. You will get about 3 to 3 1/2 gals depending on the amount of grain. Add your 170-175 degree water to the mash tun ( make sure valve is closed) add 5 gals or as much as the tun will hold. Some will say stir, some not. I do but I don't think it matters much. Let The mash sit for 10 minutes or so and the drain into the kettle. You are looking to get about 6.5 gals into the boiler. If you're short you can top up with a little water. Don't run off more than 6.5 gals. Put the kettle on the flame and boil for 60 minutes, adding hop additions according to your recipe At the end of the boil you should have a little more than 5 gals. Cool, transfer to sanitized fermenter, pitch yeast and make beer.
 
Fumanchu. Dont sweat it> I did the same stuff my first Allgrain Batch. I heated the strike water to the mash temp. I heated the sparge water to the mash out temp. Let the sparge sit too long. Its all part of learning and I would understand how to do it right had I not first did it wrong first. The only thing I will add is too stir your mash and sparge for at least 5-10 minutes to get good conversion. Especially when you mash out. The whole point is too wash the grain and extract every little bit of sugar thats left in there. Heat your sparge water up to 185 degrees and as soon as its in the cooler start mixing. after youve mixed for 5 or 10 minutes drain it out. I didnt see you mention vorlauf either. Might want to check that out as well. Cheers and Good Luck SW
 
Seanwallner said:
Fumanchu. Dont sweat it> I did the same stuff my first Allgrain Batch. I heated the strike water to the mash temp. I heated the sparge water to the mash out temp. Let the sparge sit too long. Its all part of learning and I would understand how to do it right had I not first did it wrong first. The only thing I will add is too stir your mash and sparge for at least 5-10 minutes to get good conversion. Especially when you mash out. The whole point is too wash the grain and extract every little bit of sugar thats left in there. Heat your sparge water up to 185 degrees and as soon as its in the cooler start mixing. after youve mixed for 5 or 10 minutes drain it out. I didnt see you mention vorlauf either. Might want to check that out as well. Cheers and Good Luck SW
Click to expand...


To clarify, vorlauf is when you are draining your mash the first time, you take the first 2-4 quarts and pour it back into the mash. Usually I do this until my wort looks more clear running through the tube, which can be a gallon, 2 gallons, whatever.

I completely screwed up my first and third batch of all grain because of my technique, so no worries. One reason why I am switching to batch sparging. It will solve all of the problems I was having.
 
HootHootHoot said:
To clarify, vorlauf is when you are draining your mash the first time, you take the first 2-4 quarts and pour it back into the mash. Usually I do this until my wort looks more clear running through the tube, which can be a gallon, 2 gallons, whatever.

I completely screwed up my first and third batch of all grain because of my technique, so no worries. One reason why I am switching to batch sparging. It will solve all of the problems I was having.
Click to expand...

Ya I got tired of typing. Plus you can't give em all the answers that's too easy. Thanks Hoot! SW
 
Just moved it to secondary. It is lacking in something but will be drinkable. Kind of a weird beer.
 
This is the first pale beer I make though.

I think it might end up tasting like a cross between a munich and a VERY lightly flavoured cerveza.
 
All the previous advice is spot on. If you are serious about AG you should consider getting your own grain mill so you can control your crush.

I crush my own grain and I mash in a 5 gal Rubbermaid cooler also. 14.5 lbs of grain is pushing it and at that level it's a pretty thick mash. I have a second larger MT and any grainbill over 14 lbs goes in that one. Typically with a grainbill like that I would expect a post boil OG somewhere between 1.065 and 1.070.
 
Yeah, I'm getting a clear picture of the whole operation now, thanks to the board members. It's appreciated.

Also very glad I'll be able to drink a beer I totally screwed up.
 
Hey, turns out I did a batch sparge. I just let it sit in the grain for much longer than I needed to.

I also had a cheat taste. It's pretty good, though not bitter enough to my liking and it's a little acidic as well. Not bad at all though. Would drink.

If I would have added some herbs to that, it would be a decent gruit. HA
 
I had a same problem when I started this hobby. The mash temp is definitely too low as everybody mentioned above. I suggest you should look into how your lautering is working. As I have installed March 809 HS beer pump and lauter about an hour, my efficiency is significantly better. Now I am getting 1.05ish constantly with almost the same amount of grain bill. I think it is worth a try.
 
watersr said:
After 60 minutes drain the wort from the tun into your boil kettle. You will get about 3 to 3 1/2 gals depending on the amount of grain. Add your 170-175 degree water to the mash tun ( make sure valve is closed) add 5 gals or as much as the tun will hold. Some will say stir, some not. I do but I don't think it matters much. Let The mash sit for 10 minutes or so and the drain into the kettle. You are looking to get about 6.5 gals into the boiler. If you're short you can top up with a little water. Don't run off more than 6.5 gals.


Thank You for this great explanation.

I have a question though, if you end up with 3 to 3 1/2 gal from mashing and you sparge using 5 gal, wouldn't you end up with about 7 1/2 gal of wort ? or dose the grain soak up a bunch of the sparge water too?

Im wanting to switch to AG soon (still doing extracts), and trying to read/learn about AG before doing so.

I have been wanting to ask this one for a while now.
After steeping grains at 155 for 30 min, can you do the 170 deg sparge for 10 min using that same steeping water to get better sugar/enzyme transfer, just like you guys do with an AG batch?

Thanks Again
Cheers :mug:
Click to expand...
 
Agreed. Your temperature is too low. You should be in the 152F to 156F range. If you start at 145F, you should raise it into the higher range for a little while (1/2 hour).

Remember that lower temperatures require longer times to finish conversion.
 
fumanchu said:
Well that's good to know. I'll heat my water to 170 next time.
Click to expand...

Try heating your sparge water to 185 next time. That way when it mixes with your 145 degree grain bed it comes to ~170. A little hotter is fine, 175 is fine. You won't extract tannins. I am now fully convinced that is a myth.
 
beerman0001 said:
How long did you do the boil for? What was the hop schedule? And what was you Og after the boil?
Click to expand...

1oz saaz for 60
0.5 saaz for 20
0.5 saaz for 5-7

OG was 1.052

Boil was on an electric kitchen stove that happens to be pretty weak. Still got a rolling boil but I hate those new red light nuisance stoves. Need more power.

I miss the old black coils.
 

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