Us05 tasting seriously Belgian-y

Man I hate to post one of these, but I'm about ready to dump my beer.

I brewed up NB's Chinook IPA extract kit with us05. Fermented in a swamp cooler at 66 and on day 2 or 3 of fermentation I noticed a sulfur smell from the airlock which normally doesn't happen but I understand that fermentations are different and unique etc. I tasted the hydro sample at 8 days in and it tasted like pears or peaches, very similiar in character to some of the Belgian beers I have had.

I've had an Amarillo ipa also made with us05 that did the same thing and it never went away, essentially hiding the profile of the hops.

Apart from taking a few more samples down the road to see if it fades, has anyone had this happen but had it fade out the longer it sat in primary?

If it doesn't fade out, spicy resiny chinook hops won't mix with peach/pear flavors.

I've only used 05 a few times but I've gotten peaches with 05 on one occasion. It never went away for me. I may have let the temp get a tad warm though that time.
Was the 66º temp the temp of the beer or the cooler? The reason I ask is I remember the fermentation temp jumping higher than I was used to.

What do you mean by "in the swamp cooler"? Do you mean a wet t-shirt or towel wrapped around the fermenter, with or without a fan blowing air over it? Do you know for sure what your actual wort temperature is?

I have never experienced this "peach" flavor US-05 (my goto yeast) is supposed to have, so all the details you can provide may be important.

I recently did a Blonde Ale, pegged 67F for first 4 days of fermentation, and got quite a bit of Acetyldehyde out of it. 10 Days in Primary and kegged for 3 weeks and its still apple cider town.

Fuhmon, was the wort temperature 67 or was that either the ambient temp or a fermometer sticker on a carboy/pale? Because the center of your wort column can raise as much as 10*F higher than ambient or vessel-surface temperature during the height of fermentation.

Did you aerate well and pitch enough yeast?

^^^^ That too could be the issue

67 was beer temp. I don't think i over aerated it but.. i shook it for 2 minutes 3 times over the course of a half hour. OG 1051 so i wasn't too worried about lack of aeration and i used 11g re-hydrated. FG was 1011 and that was the target.

I was really surprised about the acetyldehyde. i was planning on repitching the yeast cake to an ipa this weekend but not to sure now. I'm not giving up on US05 all together as i have brewed other great beers with it...

Maybe 10 days wasn't long enough. I will brew this sob again and it will be clean!!

If you rehydrate 05, save your energy on the shaking. It's interesting to note how some people swear by peach at low temps and others say it happens with high temps - which is it? Never had any peach/fruity with 05.

OP My advice, buy some Chinook hops and add a lot of dry hops to overpower "peach".

Whoooa whoa whoa. 10 days?

Come back with results after 3 weeks.


EDIT: And make sure you leave the beer in the primary. There needs to be a good concentration of yeast to clean up off-flavors faster.

I brewed the same kit with US05 about a month ago, at around the same temperature, and it turned out great. Excellent recipe.

samc said:

If you rehydrate 05, save your energy on the shaking. It's interesting to note how some people swear by peach at low temps and others say it happens with high temps - which is it? Never had any peach/fruity with 05.

OP My advice, buy some Chinook hops and add a lot of dry hops to overpower "peach".

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your saying don't aerate the wort ? or don't shake the rehydrated 05?

You don't need to aerate wort when pitching rehydrated 05 or other good dry yeasts. I think you should be mixing up the rehydrated yeast prior to pitching, but that is minimal effort.

I use US05 a lot. I usually pitch at 64-65 and set my chamber at at 63-65 depending on how the fermometer on the bucket reads. Usually the beer temp is 67-68 and I haven't had any fruity flavors yet. I also will let it sit in primary for a minimum of 2 weeks, and usually 3. Pipe line has been developed so I'm not in a rush. it has been a good yeast for me!

samc said:

If you rehydrate 05, save your energy on the shaking.

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samc said:

You don't need to aerate wort when pitching rehydrated 05 or other good dry yeasts. I think you should be mixing up the rehydrated yeast prior to pitching, but that is minimal effort.

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Thaaaaat's not how it works.

You rehydrate dry yeast to give them the opportunity to build up their cell walls before being put in a tonically-stressful environment (i.e. wort.)

You aerate your wort so there is dissolved O2 for the yeast to use during their aerobic reproductive stage.





Also, seriously duckmanco don't dump your beer. Give it a full month in the primary.

Here is one of my sources - and you have what info to back up your claim that I am wrong?

I always aerate my wort when using liquid yeast. Do I need to aerate the wort before pitching dry yeast?

No, there is no need to aerate the wort but it does not harm the yeast either. During its aerobic production, dry yeast accumulates sufficient amounts of unsaturated fatty acids and sterols to produce enough biomass in the first stage of fermentation. The only reason to aerate the wort when using wet yeast is to provide the yeast with oxygen so that it can produce sterols and unsaturated fatty acids which are important parts of the cell membrane and therefore essential for biomass production.

http://www.danstaryeast.com/frequently-asked-questions

Reno_eNVy_446 said:

Thaaaaat's not how it works.

You rehydrate dry yeast to give them the opportunity to build up their cell walls before being put in a tonically-stressful environment (i.e. wort.)

You aerate your wort so there is dissolved O2 for the yeast to use during their aerobic reproductive stage.

Click to expand...

+1 That was poor, uninformed advice.

Always aerate your wort, whether using dry or liquid yeast. It can't hurt and can only help

samc said:

It's interesting to note how some people swear by peach at low temps and others say it happens with high temps - which is it? Never had any peach/fruity with 05.

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Maybe it's any temp stress or dependent upon either the packet of yeast, the taster's threshold for that ester, or some other unknown factor. Enough people have experienced this with this yeast to think that it's not imagined. I know I didn't, nor did I experience it the other two times I used it. I held on to the beer I had with this flavor for over a year, slowly chipping away at it, and it never went away. The OP is only ten days in so hopefully it'll clear as suggested.

samc said:

Here is one of my sources - and you have what info to back up your claim that I am wrong?

I always aerate my wort when using liquid yeast. Do I need to aerate the wort before pitching dry yeast?

No, there is no need to aerate the wort but it does not harm the yeast either. During its aerobic production, dry yeast accumulates sufficient amounts of unsaturated fatty acids and sterols to produce enough biomass in the first stage of fermentation. The only reason to aerate the wort when using wet yeast is to provide the yeast with oxygen so that it can produce sterols and unsaturated fatty acids which are important parts of the cell membrane and therefore essential for biomass production.

http://www.danstaryeast.com/frequently-asked-questions

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I suspect that's the "advice" they give you so they can justify telling you to use more packs than you need.

EDIT: *************************************** As I said before, rehydration allows the yeast to build the cell membrane and THAT is why dry yeast as "sufficient amounts of unsaturated fatty acids and sterols." So yeah, the original generation have cell membranes but now the next generations are left short. That's why the oxygen is necessary to facilitate proper reproduction.

samc said:

Here is one of my sources - and you have what info to back up your claim that I am wrong?

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1) [MOD EDIT - Off Topic]
2) Yours isn't a source. It's not from a peer-reviewed journal. Now, this is a source:

The characteristics of cultivated yeast were studied after continuous aeration, aeration for the first hour and without aeration. The fatty acid content increased under aerobic conditions, while the level of storage sugars increased under anaerobic conditions. In a fermentation test, total number of cells and their viability and also the intracellular level of storage sugars and fatty acids were higher in yeast cultivated under aerobic conditions than in yeast cultivated under anaerobic conditions.

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Maemura, et al. "EFFECTS OF AERATION DURING THE CULTIVATION OF PITCHING YEAST ON ITSCHARACTERISTICS DURING THE SUBSEQUENT FERMENTATION OF WORT." Journal of the Institute of Brewing. July-August 1998, Vol. 104, pp. 207-211


Biology student. Need more proof? I could do this all day (plus, as a student, I have access to databases with millions of peer-reviewed articles that would otherwise need to be purchased to see.)

US-05 has a lot of cells compared to liquid yeast. So you can get away with just sprinkling and inadequate aeration in most cases.

My own experience is that creaming and aeration makes a huge difference in how long the ferment takes to get going. I'm not going to go back through my records to verify, but there are enough samples, I think, to be statistically significant. (I've been brewing since 1980)
I do a lot of higher gravity beers, though, which makes a difference in the pitch and survival rates needed.

Whoa, thanks for all of the responses, heated or otherwise.

My swamp cooler is water filled to beer line of bucket and I rotate out ice blocks, so I'm confident the wort was 66, as my others beers with us05 haven't done this except once before. 11 gram packet rehydrated in boiled and cooled water pitched into aerated (shaken for 1-2 min.) wort.

My only thought would be that the yeast packet was shipped when it was hot, and I'm unsure of how it was stored because the kit was a gift, but still I thought this stuff was pretty hardy.

I will wait the three weeks to see what happens, but if it ain't gone by then, I'm (shudder at the thought) probably gonna dump it as I know it will taste like sh*t and I'll never want to pull a pint of it. Thanks again for all of the responses though.

duckmanco said:

I will wait the three weeks to see what happens, but if it ain't gone by then, I'm (shudder at the thought) probably gonna dump it as I know it will taste like sh*t and I'll never want to pull a pint of it. Thanks again for all of the responses though.

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Is it taking up a lot of room you could use? Because you could leave it a lot longer even... time heals almost everything with homebrew.

It's always possible there is an infection. Doesn't sound like temp was an issue, and you would have seen a very slow start if the yeast was partially destroyed by shipping heat.

If it doesn't clean up in a couple of weeks, I don't think it's going to get there. Still, whenever a problem occurs, you can't fix it if you don't know why.

Reno_eNVy_446 said:

Thaaaaat's not how it works.

You rehydrate dry yeast to give them the opportunity to build up their cell walls before being put in a tonically-stressful environment (i.e. wort.)

You aerate your wort so there is dissolved O2 for the yeast to use during their aerobic reproductive stage.





Also, seriously duckmanco don't dump your beer. Give it a full month in the primary.

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You don't really need to aerate wort when using dry yeast, although I do anyway.

Per manufacturing website, since that's the cool thing to do here:

http://www.danstaryeast.com/library/aeration-and-starter-versus-wort

At each doubling it will split the lipids with out making more lipids (no O2). The first split leaves 2.5% for each daughter cell. The second split leaves 1.25% for each daughter cell. The next split leaves 0.63%. This is the low level that stops yeast multiplication. Unless you add O2 the reproduction will stop.

When you produce 3-5% alcohol beer this is no problem. It is when you produce higher alcohol beer or inoculate at a lower rate, that you need to add O2 to produce more yeast and for alcohol tolerance near the end of fermentation. You definitely need added O2 when you reuse the yeast for the next inoculum.

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sudsmcgee said:

THIS is uninformed advice as it relates to dry yeast. But I can tell that you're convinced so go with what you know.

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If you don't think O2 is necessary for healthy yeast cell reproduction, than I don't know what to tell you...*******************. Even the trusted dry yeast manufacturer "source" clearly states this.

Took a sample today from the fermentor and it's either wishful thinking or because it's 9:30am, but the pear/peach spicy eatery thing has seemed to calm down quite a bit from the last sample, and the chinook came through.

Here's hoping for it to totally go away with a few more weeks in the fermentor, a month at minimum. I'll update this thread after it gets kegged.

Definitely give it more time. I brewed NB's English Pale Ale kit using the Neo Brittiania yeast last January and thought it had a terrible "yeasty" flavor for the first two months. Disappointed, I took the keg out of the keezer and forgot about it for another couple of months. I seriously considered dumping it several times. I then put it back in the keezer after a total of 4 months since brew day and it was amazing. It turned out to be one of my favorites.

Maybe instead of dumping give it some time to age a bit. You may be surprised like I was.

g-star said:

If you don't think O2 is necessary for healthy yeast cell reproduction, than I don't know what to tell you...****************. Even the trusted dry yeast manufacturer "source" clearly states this.

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I didn't deny that it is necessary for optimum yeast cell production. I said it's not necessary when using dry yeast (because the cell count is so high when properly pitched that the yeast don't need to reproduce much, and what they need to reproduce they already have).

*************************************

g-star said:

+1 That was poor, uninformed advice.

Always aerate your wort, whether using dry or liquid yeast. It can't hurt and can only help

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seriously i've listened to countless talks with Chris White, John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff them talking specifically about yeast requiring oxygen in wort

sudsmcgee said:

I didn't deny that it is necessary for optimum yeast cell production. I said it's not necessary when using dry yeast (because the cell count is so high when properly pitched that the yeast don't need to reproduce much, and what they need to reproduce they already have)

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************ Yes, dry yeast comes packaged with certain compounds to aid reproduction... but that's just to get it STARTED! They most certainly need to reproduce as much. A proper pitching amount of dry yeast as calculated by Mr. Malty has the same about of viable yeast cells as a proper sized starter. Reproduction occurs at the same rate in both until the yeast reach their optimal concentration. Pretty sure it's a couple billion cells per milliliter. A dry yeast pack will have something like

However, as you saw in on of my previous posts, every generation uses up those fatty acid reserves and they won't make any more if there is little or no O2 available.

*******************************************************

Off topic banter removed. Keep it on topic and keep the discussion in technical forums civil.

Reno_eNVy_446 said:

*sigh* Yes, dry yeast comes packaged with certain compounds to aid reproduction... but that's just to get it STARTED! They most certainly need to reproduce as much. A proper pitching amount of dry yeast as calculated by Mr. Malty has the same about of viable yeast cells as a proper sized starter. Reproduction occurs at the same rate in both until the yeast reach their optimal concentration. Pretty sure it's a couple billion cells per milliliter. A dry yeast pack will have something like

However, as you saw in on of my previous posts, every generation uses up those fatty acid reserves and they won't make any more if there is little or no O2 available.

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I don't deny yeast need oxygen. I said you don't need to oxygenate when pitching a dry yeast pack. This is a different statement. The wort will contain adequate oxygen to allow a dry yeast to adequately reproduce and ferment simply from the wort transfer from the boil kettle to the fermenter as long as you're not racking it gently. The fact that people have pitched dry yeast packs and the wort turns into good beer is proof of this.

Now, if you want to argue that oxygenation will enhance attentuation somewhat, well I won't argue that because I agree. My point is that wort will turn into beer whether you oxygenate or not when pitching dry yeast. Remember, I also said that I aerate anyway because it's easy to do and it takes like 30 seconds for me so why not.

sudsmcgee said:

The wort will contain adequate oxygen to allow a dry yeast to adequately reproduce and ferment simply from the wort transfer from the boil kettle to the fermenter as long as you're not racking it gently. .

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OK, splashing the wort when racking IS oxygenating. My only bad experiences with dry yeast have been when I racked into a carboy with the destination hose at the bottom of the carboy. No splashing. Probably sprinkled yeast. Pathetic or non-existent start. Creaming helps, so does oxygenation,

So the takeaway, assuming a fresh pack of dry yeast and no other lurking variables:

1. On lower gravity beers, you can probably get by with one of:
A. Creaming before pitching, or
B. Oxygenating the wort reasonably well.

2. On higher gravity beers, either:
A. Cream and oxygenate, or
B. Do one or the other and use two packs.

But isn't it easier to do both every time? It's been bombproof for me.

Getting back to the point of this thread, it sounds like the original poster is gonna have success! Hurrah!

RichBenn said:

OK, splashing the wort when racking IS oxygenating.

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This

US-05 is basically my house yeast. I use it for almost anything I can.

A. Use enough. 1 pack is good for 1.060 or less. Once I get over 1.070-1.075 I'll use two packs.

B. Re-hydrate it. It's so simple, there's really no excuse not to.

C. I typically ferment it on the low side, 62-65. I'll raise the temp to 68-70 once i'm withing 5pts of final gravity. I've fermented it up to 70 without it getting too fruity. (these are wort temps, not ambient or water bath temps).

D. It clears fantastically after a couple weeks

E. I only oxygenate by splashing the wort when racking to the primary. I always get great attenuation, and no off flavors from US-05. Anytime I'm brewing with that red packet, I feel like it's going to be a great beer.

Calm down people. For a wort of 1.05 or less you don't need to aerate using dry yeast. If you have a higher OG you could simply pitch 2 packs and still not aerate.

Lol racking is NOT proper aerating. You are vastly under aerating if you just splash the wort. If you want to aerate, you need to shake the carboy nonstop for 5 minutes.

When I use dry yeast I just rehydrate and pour into the wort. I shake for a couple seconds just to mix in the yeast. I get clean beer (with US05) and low FG (1.008, down from 1.06).

No harm in oxygenating, but it's not required for dry yeast.

Reno_eNVy_446 said:

This

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..was my point all along. No additional attempts at oxygenation are necesary beyond normal tranfer of the wort to the fermenter.