lager yeast question

Hello all. I typically brew almost all ales, but I am trying my first lager in my new conical fermenter. My queston is since lagers will ferment on the bottom, do I still want to use my dump valve on my conical at day 3. I don't want to dump active yeast. Thanks!

My understanding is that a lager needs a lot longer to ferment; I assume you're fermenting at the correct temperatures. I'd wait until after the gravity has stopped dropping before dumping yeast.

Lagers will take weeks to ferment. Yeast just isn't very active at 50F.

Thanks guys. I think I will wait an additional day and dump the trub then an additional day before I try to harvest some of the yeast, putting me about 7 days after the start of fermentation. Anything not look right from what I am saying, please speak up!

Ive had really good success with my conical-fermed lagers by crashing the sweet wort overnight, let warm back to 45°F in the morning, dump the trub, then oxygenate and pitch and let rise to 50°F. Clean lager.

7 days isn't long enough for lager fermentation. You're probably gonna need 2-3 weeks and ideally a bit more. Lager is slow going.

Lager yeast doesn't actually ferment on the bottom, it ferments throughout the volume just like ale yeast. The bottom vs top fermenting thing is more or less a misnomer.

I find that lager fermentation takes a little less than twice as long as ale fermentation. One the order of 7 days vs 4 for normal gravities.

I don't see why you would delay your first dump as that is intended to be just trub and if anything the trub will drop faster in a lager due to temperature. You can even chill your wort and dump the trub before pitching the yeast, that is what Jamil Z says he used to do before he started using a whirlpool chiller and cooling to lager pitching temp and leaving the trub in the kettle.

moosetav said:

7 days isn't long enough for lager fermentation. You're probably gonna need 2-3 weeks. Lager is slow going.

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Thats just not true.

Ya think? mine have taken a while. I have used 2 packs Saflager 34/70 @ constant 50 deg on my oktoberfest batches. Try to aerate pretty well. They still seem to like a couple weeks to get to 3/4 fermentation.

from Palmer: The lower fermentation temperature decreases the rate at which the yeast work and lengthens both the primary and secondary fermentation times. The primary phase for ales is often 2 - 5 days, but 1 - 3 weeks is normal for a lager.

I guess what I should say rather is that it can, and has for me, taken a 2-3 weeks. Use your hydro to determine when your primary phase is up.

weeks in ferment for a lager is is probably very closely driven by pitch rate... growth phase is slow at 50°F

I don't have a conical- but I'm wondering something. When you make a lager in a conical, when do you do the diacetyl rest? In a carboy, I always do the diacetyl rest on the yeast cake, and don't rack until after there is no trace of diacetyl. If you dump at day 4, 7, etc, when do you do the diacetyl rest? And how do you perform it?

I wait until primary is done (and diacetyl rest) before I pull yeast. Ive had a couple where I didnt need a diacetyl rest (due to low temp 45°F start?). YRMV.

maxhavoc said:

I wait until primary is done (and diacetyl rest) before I pull yeast. Ive had a couple where I didnt need a diacetyl rest (due to low temp 45°F start?). YRMV.

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That's why I"m wondering about talking about doing a yeast dump early in primary with a lager. You don't know if you need to do a diacetyl rest at 3, 4,5 days of fermentation. Some people do them routinely. I know that when you do the first dump, it's mostly trub as there is still plenty of yeast in suspension. But what about if you DO need a diacetyl rest?

Maybe some other conical owners who make a lot of lagers can clear that up for me?

Thank you all for your feedback regarding the initial question. I am new to Lagers because of the temp requirements, and I am wanting to harvest the yeast for my first time. That leads to another question. Is it worth trying to harvest the lager yeast, or would you recommend not because the growth is so slow? I also find trying to harvest the yeast is much more difficult than I initially expected. I read harvest on the 3rd dump, near 7 days after start of fermentation, obviously longer for lager, but even with ales, it doesn't seem like very much yeast cake after it was cooled. I had MUCH more in the bottom of the conical ferm when I was cleaning it. Am I doing something wrong?