Sour Location

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DoubleAught

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I've currently got a sour aging in my ferm chamber. It's been in there for 2 months and it's been a steady 62 degrees. I'm wanting to put together a couple lagers but am afraid of what the lagering temps could/would do to the sour. I guess I could move it to an upstairs closet for a couple months where it stays around 65.

Suggestions?
 
I have fermentors of sours and non-sours sitting right next to each other all the time. The bacteria arent going to climb out through the airlock, fly through the air, and then climb down the airlock into your lager :) no worries man.


Mike.
 
I have fermentors of sours and non-sours sitting right next to each other all the time. The bacteria arent going to climb out through the airlock, fly through the air, and then climb down the airlock into your lager :) no worries man.


Mike.

I don't think he's concerned about the sours infecting his lager, he's concerned about the effects of the lower lager temps on the sour.

Depending on what bugs you're using in your sour, I think the cooler temps are likely to slow them down a bit. Best case scenario, it means you'll be waiting a little longer before the sour is ready. If it were me, I'd move it to your closet and let it age there at 65F.
 
microbusbrewery said:
I don't think he's concerned about the sours infecting his lager, he's concerned about the effects of the lower lager temps on the sour.

Depending on what bugs you're using in your sour, I think the cooler temps are likely to slow them down a bit. Best case scenario, it means you'll be waiting a little longer before the sour is ready. If it were me, I'd move it to your closet and let it age there at 65F.

Thanks, didn't know if disturbing the sour that much was worse than the colder lager temps.
 
I actually think it is better for sour beers to have mild swings in temperature. This is more important when aging in barrels because it helps with oak extraction.

I remember speaking with Eric Salazar of New Belgium and he was discussing the influence of the location of each foeder and how it makes a big impact on the beer. And I remember something to the extent that the foeders closer to the doors where his favorite and much more complex.

I would also age it in your closet. And the mild shaking should not influence the beer too much. Just try to be careful to introduce too much oxygen.
 
Almighty said:
I actually think it is better for sour beers to have mild swings in temperature. This is more important when aging in barrels because it helps with oak extraction.

I remember speaking with Eric Salazar of New Belgium and he was discussing the influence of the location of each foeder and how it makes a big impact on the beer. And I remember something to the extent that the foeders closer to the doors where his favorite and much more complex.

I would also age it in your closet. And the mild shaking should not influence the beer too much. Just try to be careful to introduce too much oxygen.

Thanks, there is a little swing in temp in the closet, anywhere from 62-68 degrees normally. I think I'll move it there tonight.
 
edmanster said:
The only disturbance to moving a sour is causing the pellicle to fall...

There's really not much growth on top as of now. Is that my main concern?
 
DoubleAught said:
There's really not much growth on top as of now. Is that my main concern?

Basically.... Yes :) unless it gets really hot and then you forget and it turns really sour fast... Did that 2 years ago with a soured gruit... Forgot about it in my garage for X amount of months during a hot summer..... @microbusbrewery, next time I see you remind me to give you a bottle...lol.... :mug:
 
DoubleAught said:
Just because I'm curious now :) what happens if the pellicle falls?

Don't know the exacts but have herd and read somewhere that it's better for the bugs in what they do... Also people don't like to mix it in inn fear of getting little pellicles in the bottles that's why you rack from underneath!! :cheers:
 
edmanster said:
Don't know the exacts but have herd and read somewhere that it's better for the bugs in what they do... Also people don't like to mix it in inn fear of getting little pellicles in the bottles that's why you rack from underneath!! :cheers:

Ahh that makes sense!
 
But if yours is like mine right now and still in its infancy, theres no problem moving it now... I will be moving mine this weekend to its spot for a 6 month duration :)
 
@microbusbrewery, next time I see you remind me to give you a bottle...lol.... :mug:

What up Ed?!?! I'd be glad to take a bottle off your hands:ban:

To the OP, I don't think you have to worry too much about the pellicle falling. I've read that if it falls it will usually form again. Even if it doesn't come back, the bugs are still in there doing their work.
 
The pellicle falling is one of those rule of thumbs that was started by Jamil and has spread without people knowing what it means.

The pellicle is formed with a mixture of Brett and other bacteria in an effort to protect against oxygen. If you don't have oxygen in the headspace then a pellicle will not form, and that has nothing to do with the activity of Brett. A wild beer is "ready" when it tastes good. It may be "ready" before the activity has completely stopped (the gravity has stabilized over a couple months, but the Brett and bacteria never really stop, they just no longer consume sugar as their carbon source) and in which case you will need to either bottle in thick bottles or use filtering/cold crashing + campden tablets + re yeasting before bottling (or just keg it).

And yes too much heat favors the bacteria over Brett and results in a overly sour less complex beer. But 62-68 is a great range.
 
Almighty said:
The pellicle falling is one of those rule of thumbs that was started by Jamil and has spread without people knowing what it means.

The pellicle is formed with a mixture of Brett and other bacteria in an effort to protect against oxygen. If you don't have oxygen in the headspace then a pellicle will not form, and that has nothing to do with the activity of Brett. A wild beer is "ready" when it tastes good. It may be "ready" before the activity has completely stopped (the gravity has stabilized over a couple months, but the Brett and bacteria never really stop, they just no longer consume sugar as their carbon source) and in which case you will need to either bottle in thick bottles or use filtering/cold crashing + campden tablets + re yeasting before bottling (or just keg it).

And yes too much heat favors the bacteria over Brett and results in a overly sour less complex beer. But 62-68 is a great range.

Thank you! So when oaking with a dowel, is that to encourage the formation or growth of a pellicle? I know oxygen gets in there with doing the dowel...
 
The oak dowel method is to mimic the micro oxygenation that happens in a barrel. Basically you do want some slow release of oxygen into the beer, but controlling that rate is difficult. You do not want a big dose of it because that will encourage the growth of acetobacter, which will turn your beer to vinegar. And that is what the pellicle is trying to prevent, but with too much oxygen the acetobacter will out grow the Brett.

I have tried the oak dowel method and it is more trouble than it is worth. But it's homebrewing so try whatever you want.
 
Almighty said:
The oak dowel method is to mimic the micro oxygenation that happens in a barrel. Basically you do want some slow release of oxygen into the beer, but controlling that rate is difficult. You do not want a big dose of it because that will encourage the growth of acetobacter, which will turn your beer to vinegar. And that is what the pellicle is trying to prevent, but with too much oxygen the acetobacter will out grow the Brett.

I have tried the oak dowel method and it is more trouble than it is worth. But it's homebrewing so try whatever you want.

Awesome, thanks again!! :cheers:
 
Almighty said:
The oak dowel method is to mimic the micro oxygenation that happens in a barrel. Basically you do want some slow release of oxygen into the beer, but controlling that rate is difficult. You do not want a big dose of it because that will encourage the growth of acetobacter, which will turn your beer to vinegar. And that is what the pellicle is trying to prevent, but with too much oxygen the acetobacter will out grow the Brett.

I have tried the oak dowel method and it is more trouble than it is worth. But it's homebrewing so try whatever you want.

So an airlock on a carboy isn't the best then. Should it be removed periodically?
 
I actually think it is better for sour beers to have mild swings in temperature. This is more important when aging in barrels because it helps with oak extraction.

I remember speaking with Eric Salazar of New Belgium and he was discussing the influence of the location of each foeder and how it makes a big impact on the beer. And I remember something to the extent that the foeders closer to the doors where his favorite and much more complex.

I would also age it in your closet. And the mild shaking should not influence the beer too much. Just try to be careful to introduce too much oxygen.
+1 seasonal changes stir the pot
 
I keep my sours in a closet that sits at an external wall.

I know that its been discussed but the pellicle falling doesn't mean jack. I rarely even get a pellicle in my better bottles. If you rack below the pellicle that doesn't mean you won't get a pellicle in the bottle. The organisms that form the pellicle are also living down in the wort. The pellicle is due to oxygen exposure as already mentioned. So any oxygen exposure in your bottle neck will cause a tiny pellicle in the bottle. Think of a pellicle as a gravy skin. If the gravy is kept hot enough (in our case oxygen free) a skin won't develop, but if you stir it back into the gravy a new one can form if allowed to cool again (pellicle will reform if if oxygen exposure is occuring).
 
smokinghole said:
I keep my sours in a closet that sits at an external wall.

I know that its been discussed but the pellicle falling doesn't mean jack. I rarely even get a pellicle in my better bottles. If you rack below the pellicle that doesn't mean you won't get a pellicle in the bottle. The organisms that form the pellicle are also living down in the wort. The pellicle is due to oxygen exposure as already mentioned. So any oxygen exposure in your bottle neck will cause a tiny pellicle in the bottle. Think of a pellicle as a gravy skin. If the gravy is kept hot enough (in our case oxygen free) a skin won't develop, but if you stir it back into the gravy a new one can form if allowed to cool again (pellicle will reform if if oxygen exposure is occuring).

So, the less pellicle you have, the better you are keeping oxygen out of your beer? Damn, I was hoping for better pictures later of my infection but I won't expect more than what I got.. I wanna forget about this batch for 6 months!! Pitched dregs from http://www.squatters.com/our-brew/beers/fifth.html?modal=true& a local farmhouse funky saison and some from a bottle of orval..
Edit: it's in a dedicated better bottle so I might get a little more pellicle too, right?

ForumRunner_20120419_072528.jpg
 
It might and it might not. I never got one of those impressive looking white ones that you see in the pellicle thread. In fact I have a lambic going with ECY20 right now that has the best looking pellicle I ever had develop and it isn't that impressive. I'll post up a picture when I can find my SD card reader that my wife misplaced.
 
That's my 3rd funk and the first to form a little one.. Everything in my house is misplaced.. I can set something down and look for it 5min later and its misplaced.. Man, some peoples kids!! Oh, wait.. Those r my kids..lol.. :mug:
 
I age my sours in Better Bottles, corny kegs, and glass carboys w stoppers. I have not done any side by side testing so I can't tell you what is the best. (I really want a barrel) They have all turned out well. except for 1 batch that went acetic because it had too much head space and the airlock dried out. I just try to limit the amount of oxygen as much as possible and I try to only take tastes every 3 - 6 months.
 
I moved mine to the closet last night. This is probably better for me to forget about it and let it age. When I can see it everyday I'm always tempted to stick stuff in it and take samples to see how its coming. As a side note, a 1.5 month old lambic is NOT a good taste :)
 
I was getting a shirt out of the closet tonight and heard an airlock burp, thought to myself "WTF was that?", then realized the lambic was in there...lol...seems the closet DOES work in helping me forget about it :)
 
This is really good information - I've been wanting to start brewing sours, but I wasn't sure how the temperature changes would affect them over the course of a year or two. Normally, temperature is really important during fermentation - is that not so much the case with sours?
 
+1 to lackluster (but still present) pellicles. My 6 mo old batch got a slight one, but it was moved around a few times in the last 6 mo. However, my 2 mo old batch is in a closet i never go into, and has got a more serious one. Go figure.
 
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