Bottle conditioning - ZERO carbonation - suspect infection?

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lone_wolf

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Brethren,
I've read a number of threads on issues with carbonation and conditioning but feel my situation is enough a variation on the themes to warrant a fresh post.
close to a fortnight ago i (flip top) bottled a extract+steeping grain brown ale that was showing some real promise by the end of a stint in the secondary.
I've sampled two bottles recently (as I say close to 2 weeks in bottle now) and both are DEAD flat. As additional insult, the flavour has definitely changed to something sharper and more cloying.
Some context -
-> I bottled straight from secondary.
-> I primed using carbonation drops in each bottle, so even stevn sugar distribution
-> bottles + bottling tube were sterilized carefully with specialized brewing sterilizer solution
-> I notice that in contrast to all the other batches I have done, there is NO yeast residue in the bottom of the bottles.

I'm totally confused - is it possible that there was a bug in the spigot which was transferred into each bottle, and either ate the priming sugar I reserved for the yeast / or killed the yeast or both? That might explain the change in taste
However, my last of sediment indicates I just don't have enough yeast to start with, but I find that hard to believe and that wouldn't explain change in flavour either
Dear God help me
 
How long was your beer in secondary before you racked it into the bottles? Have you confirmed that the gaskets are in good condition, and allow the bottles to hold pressure in the first place? What was the starting gravity of the beer, and the end result prior to bottling?
 
most bottle infections result in gushers, not flat beer.
you said these are swing tops...i'd guess they aren't sealing anymore because the bales are stretching.
 
most bottle infections result in gushers, not flat beer.
you said these are swing tops...i'd guess they aren't sealing anymore because the bales are stretching.

This was going to be my response almost exactly. Specifically the part about gushers vs. flat beer.
 
I would consider that maybe two weeks isn't long enough- particularly if the beer is being kept at cooler temperatures. Make sure you are storing it for at least three weeks at over 21C.
 
How long was your beer in secondary before you racked it into the bottles? Have you confirmed that the gaskets are in good condition, and allow the bottles to hold pressure in the first place? What was the starting gravity of the beer, and the end result prior to bottling?

Thanks Nebben, the beer was in the secondary for a week before I bottled - I typically leave for a fortnight in the secondary, but decided to bottle early only because samples were showing some promise (made sure gravity had stabilised of course)
I have quite a bit of confidence in the quality of the gaskets - bear in mind this is only my fifth brew and carbonation has been perfect in all batches since (on same bottles)
OG - 1046, FG - 1012
thanks again
 
most bottle infections result in gushers, not flat beer.
you said these are swing tops...i'd guess they aren't sealing anymore because the bales are stretching.

hmmm thats an interesting angle BUT I should add:
1) Same bottles produced a consistently carbonated batch about a month ago - how can the bales and gaskets deteriorate so rapidly on their own in that space of time
2) I had a little beer spare after filling 2 dozen bottles and filled a PET bottle about half way - that was actually the first bottle I opened at about a week - again - no carbonation.
 
I would consider that maybe two weeks isn't long enough- particularly if the beer is being kept at cooler temperatures. Make sure you are storing it for at least three weeks at over 21C.

Thanks Yooper, I never start drinking a batch in anger within a fortnight of bottling and bottles are stored in a hot water cupboard (ca. 20-22 degrees celcius) for the fortnight.
I usually sample a bottle at about a week though just to check progress - and in all other cases I have noticed close to full carbonation by about a week.
 
If the bottles taste sweeter than the hydrometer samples and there is no yeast residue, I'd say you had very little yeast in suspension and it is taking those remaining yeasties quite a long time to get through the priming sugar.
 
One more thing I feel I must mention before I head to the land of slumber: So I always make a point of giving a bottled beer a visual inspection every couple of days as it matures - and I spotted something different with this particular batch. Despite the fact that it was the clearest beer I had brewed by the time secondary stint had ended, within a few days of being bottled to my total disbelief I could see minute particles suspended and circulating in the bottle (seemed to be collecting towards the bottle neck). I had never seen this in any other batch (perhaps never noticed it in any other batch?) but i considered this a contributing factor to my "picked up an infection in the bottling process theory"
thanks
 
One more thing I feel I must mention before I head to the land of slumber: So I always make a point of giving a bottled beer a visual inspection every couple of days as it matures - and I spotted something different with this particular batch. Despite the fact that it was the clearest beer I had brewed by the time secondary stint had ended, within a few days of being bottled to my total disbelief I could see minute particles suspended and circulating in the bottle (seemed to be collecting towards the bottle neck). I had never seen this in any other batch (perhaps never noticed it in any other batch?) but i considered this a contributing factor to my "picked up an infection in the bottling process theory"
thanks

It sounds like yeast, working to carbonate your beer. Give it at least another week or so and try another bottle then.

Sometimes it is carbed up in a week or two, sometimes in three or four. It doesn't mean anything is wrong- it just takes a bit longer sometimes. Give it at least three weeks at 21C or higher and try it again.
 
There's really nothing wrong with your beer, except that you opened them too soon, they're not ready yet.

The 3 weeks at 70 degrees, that that we recommend is the minimum time it takes for average gravity beers to carbonate and condition. Higher grav beers take longer.

Stouts and porters have taken me between 6 and 8 weeks to carb up..I have a 1.090 Belgian strong that took three months to carb up.

Temp and gravity are the two factors that contribute to the time it takes to carb beer. But if a beer's not ready yet, or seems low carbed, and you added the right amount of sugar to it, then it's not stalled, it's just not time yet.

Everything you need to know about carbing and conditioning, can be found here Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning. With emphasis on the word, "patience." ;)

The other factor is that you are using 16 ouncers, and that adds more time to the necessary wait period. I have some pints, 22 oz bombers and other sizes that I often use, but since I enter contests I usually also do a sixer or two of standard 12 ouncers for entering. And inevitably the 12 ouncers are done at least a week faster than the larger bottles....some times two weeks ahead of time...

Also the rule of thumb is 3 weeks at 70 degrees for a normal grav 12 ounce bottle....to carb and condition....It takes longer for the yeasties to convert the larger volume in the bigger bottles to enough co2 in the headspace to be reabsorbed back into the solution...A ration I don't know how much...

Big Kahuna gives a good explanation here...
Simple. It's the ration of contact area just like in a keg. The c02 will need to pressurize the head space (Which takes LESS TIME) in a bigger bottle (More Yeast and sugar, roughly the same head space) but then it has to force that c02 into solution through the same contact area...thus it takes longer.

Really just give your beer a couple more weeks, and they should be fine. By doing the prime tabs, you pretty much gaurenteed yourself that you did it right. You added the same amount of sugar to each bottle. That makes it pretty foolproof, which means, barring any bad seal on those grolsh bottles, they will carb up eventually.


If a beer isn't carbed by "x number of weeks" you just have to give them ore time. If you added your sugar, then the beer will carb up eventually, it's really a foolroof process. All beers will carb up eventually. A lot of new brewers think they have to "troubleshoot" a bottling issue, when there really is none, the beer knows how to carb itself. In fact if you run beersmiths carbing calculator, some lower grav beers don't even require additional sugar to reach their minimum level of carbonation. Just time.
 
If the bottles taste sweeter than the hydrometer samples and there is no yeast residue, I'd say you had very little yeast in suspension and it is taking those remaining yeasties quite a long time to get through the priming sugar.

thanks MBasile, but I just can't believe this could be the case. Bear in mind, beer was in combination of primary and secondary for only a fortnight AND because it was looking/tasting so promising i did not fine in advance of bottling. So prima facie, there simply must be yeast available no?
 
There's really nothing wrong with your beer, except that you opened them too soon, they're not ready yet.

The 3 weeks at 70 degrees, that that we recommend is the minimum time it takes for average gravity beers to carbonate and condition. Higher grav beers take longer.

Stouts and porters have taken me between 6 and 8 weeks to carb up..I have a 1.090 Belgian strong that took three months to carb up.

Temp and gravity are the two factors that contribute to the time it takes to carb beer. But if a beer's not ready yet, or seems low carbed, and you added the right amount of sugar to it, then it's not stalled, it's just not time yet.

Everything you need to know about carbing and conditioning, can be found here Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning. With emphasis on the word, "patience." ;)

The other factor is that you are using 16 ouncers, and that adds more time to the necessary wait period. I have some pints, 22 oz bombers and other sizes that I often use, but since I enter contests I usually also do a sixer or two of standard 12 ouncers for entering. And inevitably the 12 ouncers are done at least a week faster than the larger bottles....some times two weeks ahead of time...

Also the rule of thumb is 3 weeks at 70 degrees for a normal grav 12 ounce bottle....to carb and condition....It takes longer for the yeasties to convert the larger volume in the bigger bottles to enough co2 in the headspace to be reabsorbed back into the solution...A ration I don't know how much...

Big Kahuna gives a good explanation here...


Really just give your beer a couple more weeks, and they should be fine. By doing the prime tabs, you pretty much gaurenteed yourself that you did it right. You added the same amount of sugar to each bottle. That makes it pretty foolproof, which means, barring any bad seal on those grolsh bottles, they will carb up eventually.


If a beer isn't carbed by "x number of weeks" you just have to give them ore time. If you added your sugar, then the beer will carb up eventually, it's really a foolroof process. All beers will carb up eventually. A lot of new brewers think they have to "troubleshoot" a bottling issue, when there really is none, the beer knows how to carb itself. In fact if you run beersmiths carbing calculator, some lower grav beers don't even require additional sugar to reach their minimum level of carbonation. Just time.

Revvy, thanks for the comprehensive response. You had me at "Hello"
I'm going to follow your suggestion and leave for another few weeks. It sounds like the quick/early carbonation I've achieved on the batches done to date using the same bottles, carbonation tab doses etc might be the exception rather than the rule?
 
I have had a Belgium Tripel IPA take up to 4 months to carbonate. Even still after 5 months, every 4th or 5th beer is flat while the other are perfect!

Lesson I learned.. Use a starter to promote healthier yeast at bottle time!

Also, some other advice, let these sit and start brewing another batch to take your mind off them. check them back out in a few weeks.

let us know how it turns out!
 
to bring some closure to this thread (and in the interest of putting a very smug smile on Revvys dial) I opened a couple of bottles of the zero-carbonation at 2 weeks batch and pop! Carbonation I would describe as absolutely perfect. I have learned a valuable lesson
thanks again for the feedback
 
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