EZ Water Calculator 3.0

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andycr said:
Love this tool, thanks so much for it!

Biscuit malt is also counted as a roasted/toasted malt, right? If so, how far off will the calculations be since it's such a lower L rating (25L) than something like roasted malt (500L)? I suppose it's in the same class as Munich (toasted malt) which has it's own row in the drop-down, but it's so much darker (8L vs around 25L).

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Only count roasted malts with a color rating higher than 50 L as roasted malts. Below that their acidity seems to follow that of base or crystal malts.

In the end you only have to guess the %roasted color in increments of 25% anyway.

Kai
 
I have a question for those of you who are using lactic acid to adjust your mash pH. I noticed that I had put a 2x multiplier in my calculation on the spreadsheet for its affect on RA/mash pH. For the life of me I can't remember why I put that in there and I don't see anything in my notes. I think I am going to take this out for the next minor revision but before I do I would appreciate any feedback from those of you who use the spreadsheet and do lactic acid additions.

Thanks!
 
Maybe because you were adding the lactic acid to both mash and sparge water? I realized I wasn't adding enough at first because I was adding salts and acid to my total water, but I think the acid calculation is for the mash water only.
 
-TH- said:
I have a question for those of you who are using lactic acid to adjust your mash pH. I noticed that I had put a 2x multiplier in my calculation on the spreadsheet for its affect on RA/mash pH. For the life of me I can't remember why I put that in there and I don't see anything in my notes. I think I am going to take this out for the next minor revision but before I do I would appreciate any feedback from those of you who use the spreadsheet and do lactic acid additions.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

You mean that the effect of lactic acid is 2x its expected effect? Adding 1ml of lactic in the spreadsheet seems to change the predicted mash pH by -0.075. Does this mean that the rule of thumb of -0.1 is an overestimate?

The spreadsheet is great! Thanks for putting the work into it!

I'm guessing that this request has been made before, but a phosphoric acid addition calculator would be great.
 
I'm trying to determine the alkalinity of my water to input into the EZ spreadsheet, but I don't know what value in my water report is equivalent to "Bicarbonate (HCO3 ppm)" or "Alkalinity (CaCO3 ppm)". The relevant part of my water report reads as follows:

Alkalinity mg/L: 88
Hardness (as CaCO) mg/L: 124
pH: 7.7
Colour T.C.U.: 1
Conductivity μmhos/cm: 341
TOC mg/L: 1.8
Total Solids mg/L: 197

In the report, the "Hardness (as CaCO)" v. "Alkalinity" confuses me. Thanks for the help.
 
Because the density of water is 1 g/ml, unit conversion calculations are resulting in:

1 mg/L = 1 ppm

If you ever come across some other heavier or lighter fluid like alcohol, this approximation is no longer true... mg/L is more thorough because it's always right, but both units are vastly used for water...
 
Great thread - I just received my wardlabs report and was trying to wrap my head around water additions. Feel pretty good about it now; ready to give this a shot. To anyone who may be new to water calculations, download the spreadsheet and read this entire thread...yes all 33+ pages. Cheers -TH- and HBT
 
-TH- said:
kal said:
TH, can you make that small change to the spreadsheet and change "sparge water" to "boil"?

I get emails every day from people who think taht sparge water additions need to go in their sparge water instead of the boil. Your v1 spreadsheet used to indicate this but v3 does not.

If I had a nickel for every time I told someone this, I'd have a lots of nickels to donate to you. ;)

Kal
Click to expand...
done deal. version 3.0.2 is now available.

btw I hope to be going electric in the near future and I must say you have got quite a resource over there at theelectricbrewery.com...
Click to expand...

Is this the only change in v3.0.2? I have customized my v3.0.0 and don't really want to deal with doing it again with a new version unless there is a calculation change. Thank! (and...did I miss anything importatn in v3.0.1?)
 
JLem said:
Is this the only change in v3.0.2? I have customized my v3.0.0 and don't really want to deal with doing it again with a new version unless there is a calculation change. Thank! (and...did I miss anything importatn in v3.0.1?)
Click to expand...

You can downlowad v3.0.2 and look at the Version Information tab to see the revision remarks for what was done at each revision.

That said, here's the info from that tab for those revisions (nothing substantial; although -TH- might beg to differ about that re: the donation button! ;) ):

v3.0.1 9/2/2011 Added note: "When measuring actual mash pH with a meter, keep in mind that it can take up to 15 minutes for mash pH to stabilize." Also added "buy me a beer" link.

v3.0.2 2/22/2012 Added notes regarding when to add salts to mash and sparge water. Revised donation button & link.
 
-TH- said:
. . . . I noticed that I had put a 2x multiplier in my calculation on the spreadsheet for its affect on RA/mash pH. For the life of me I can't remember why I put that in there and I don't see anything in my notes. I think I am going to take this out for the next minor revision . . .
Click to expand...

TH - did you address this in the recent revision?
 
jmf143 said:
TH - did you address this in the recent revision?
Click to expand...

Still working on it but from my recent research I think the multiplier brings it closer to experimental data. Therefore I will probably leave it as is in my next version but maybe allow the user to adjust the multiplier if necessary based on their own results. You should be good using the current version.
 
DeltaRage said:
You mean that the effect of lactic acid is 2x its expected effect?
Click to expand...

That has something to do with the buffer the lactic sees. Understanding the apparent mash buffering capacity is something where I see a lot of variation in my data. When using bicarbonate alkalinity I tend to see a buffer capacity around 60 mEq/(kg*pH) while the use of an acid, like lactic shows a mash buffer of only ~30 mEq/(kg*pH). Some of this may be from the fact that the pH over mEq/kg relation ship is not linear and some of it comes from the fact that water alkalinity is also a buffer. And there might be other factors.

Since I saw lots of inconsistencies with that I ran lots of experiments in this area before I went on my "brewing science hiatus" almost 2 years ago. I was looking at this data just recently and will have to dig into this some more with renewed interest due to the new mash chemistry calculator that I wrote.

Kai
 
Kaiser said:
When using bicarbonate alkalinity I tend to see a buffer capacity around 60 mEq/(kg*pH) while the use of an acid, like lactic shows a mash buffer of only ~30 mEq/(kg*pH).

I'm not following that at all but whenever I see a factor of two and carbonate/bicarbonate mentioned I suspect that definitions may be involved or the fact that carbonate absorbs 2 protons on the path to carbonic may have been overlooked.

I once bought an alkalinity test kit that returned a value twice the actual akalinity. A little investigation reveled that the manufacturer considered alkalinity to be 100 time the number of mEq/L required to hit the end pH. When I reported this to the source, Cole Parmer, they were kind enough to write back saying they had indeed checked with the manufacturer and that's correct - 100 time mEq. Saepe in errore, numquam in dubio.
Click to expand...
 
ajdelange said:
Kaiser said:
I'm not following that at all but whenever I see a factor of two and carbonate/bicarbonate mentioned I suspect that definitions may be involved or the fact that carbonate absorbs 2 protons on the path to carbonic may have been overlooked.
Click to expand...

I checked that and that's not what was going on. The apparent factor of two is interesting, though.

Not until recently I have been able to account for the buffer behavior of carbonic more accurately but that only accounts for some of the discrepancies I'm seeing.

Kai
Click to expand...
 
Hi all,
Just got my water report, but it lists the Sodium results as "PENDING". Not sure what to do... Is there a typical (close enough) sodium number that I can plug into the EZ water calculator? Should I ignore and leave at zero? Here are the rest of my numbers:

Calcium 47 mg/L
Magnesium 16 mg/L
Sodium ???
Chloride 148 mg/L
Sulfate 49 mg/L
Alkalinity 85 mg/L

HELP???
 
Kaiser said:
Some of this may be from the fact that the pH over mEq/kg relation ship is not linear and some of it comes from the fact that water alkalinity is also a buffer. And there might be other factors.
Click to expand...

I find that the pH vs meq/kg is VERY linear in the typical mash pH range. In that pH range, a large part of the water alkalinity has been exhausted. So it shouldn't be a factor. I suppose Kai was speaking about a wider range of pH.
 
The rule of thumb is high buffering within 1 unit of a pK. Assuming that a lot of the buffering comes from phosphate (a fair assumption since there is so much of it in malt) you are safely away from the closest pK's (which is exactly why 5.2 doesn't work) but of course there are dozens of other acids in malt.

I can't tell whether the titration curves are flat or not. I've measured some that are and some that aren't but that's because I've never measured one correctly - a process I must undertake when I have some time. It is going to be a very time consuming process - perhaps not so bad when I actually get rolling.

Now if bicarbonate is involved the first pK is 6.38. At any pH above 5.38 there will be appreciable buffering from bicarbonate - the higher you go the more there will be until you hit 6.38 at which point it starts to roll off again.

The graph below shows the buffering capacity in mEq/mmol - pH (1 mmol of carbo comes from 100 mg of lime or 84 mg of sodium bicarbonate) on the left axis and the number of mEq of mL of 23 Be' HCl (concentrated) which would have to be added to a liter of water with 100 mg of lime in it to reach the pH on the bottom axis. It's pretty plain from either of these curves that the buffering is substantial in the rule of thumb region and that the titration curve (the red one) is reasonably linear in that region. When outside, however, it is highly non linear.

Carbobuf.jpg
 
gavball6 said:
Hi all,
Just got my water report, but it lists the Sodium results as "PENDING". Not sure what to do... Is there a typical (close enough) sodium number that I can plug into the EZ water calculator? Should I ignore and leave at zero? Here are the rest of my numbers:

Calcium 47 mg/L
Magnesium 16 mg/L
Sodium ???
Chloride 148 mg/L
Sulfate 49 mg/L
Alkalinity 85 mg/L

HELP???
Click to expand...

that's easy. Go here: http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/

enter your values but leave sodium empty. Now hit update calculations and show the report in the source water section. Look at the ion balance and increase sodium until the ion balance is close to 0. you'll have to keep hitting the update button. I got a sodium level of about 75. That's pretty high.

Kai
 
Kaiser said:
I got a sodium level of about 75. That's pretty high.

Kai
Click to expand...

Hah, that's nothin'! My tap water source sodium is 286! And yes, I use RO water and adjust it, as all the other values are huge as well.
 
mabrungard said:
I find that the pH vs meq/kg is VERY linear in the typical mash pH range. In that pH range, a large part of the water alkalinity has been exhausted. So it shouldn't be a factor. I suppose Kai was speaking about a wider range of pH.
Click to expand...

This is actually quite noticeable at normal mash pH. You can experiment with that here: http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/

Enter 100 ppm as CaCO3 for alkalinity
In the Grist Info section choose Beer Color
Enter 10 lb as grist weigt
click Calculate.

Then look at effective water residual alkalinity in the Mash Report section. At a mash pH of 5.7 only 80% of the water's alkalinity are effective

you can lower the mash pH by increasing the beer color. At a mash pH of 5.4 88% of the water's alkalinity are effective.

Now start with distilled water and add 2.4 g lye. In 4 gal that also gives you 100 ppm alkalinity. But at a mash pH of 5.7 100% of that alkalinity is effective. The calculator shows 99% but that's because of some of its internal algorithms.

Kai
 
GUB said:
Thanks for the advice. I plan on getting the grains next weekend and testing soon after so I'll put the results in here out of interest.
Click to expand...

Some five months later and I am ready to share my findings. This process has been great and one that I have learned a great deal from.

Basically I took a bunch of my most commonly used grains and did single grain type mini-mash tests. 100g of lightly crushed grain were mixed in schott bottles with 250ml of 70C brewing water, bringing the temp to approx 67C. I placed the bottles in a water bath that kept it a constant 67C. I waited around 30 mins and then took samples from each. Let the samples cool to room temp and then took pH readings on a good quality (accurate and calibrated) pH meter. Some of the more interesting results:

Pils malt: EZ Water lists it at 5.75. I recorded: Bestmaltz Pils 5.64, Bests Boh Pils 5.59, Dingeman Pils 5.72.

Maris Otter: EZ Water lists it at 5.77. I recorded: Simpson Maris Otter 5.52.

There are plenty of other variations in other grains but these are the most important for me as I brew a lot of pale beers with my super soft water.

The end result: All mash pHs have been +/- 0.1 of the EZ Water calc with the new figures placed in it. I started using acid malt to drop the pH, but now I have graduated to using 88% lactic acid (calculated on EZ Water). The last brew I did EZ water calculated 5.43 after acidification and I measured 5.42. Couldnt be happier! I highly recommend this to anyone looking to fine tune their mash pH.

It also means I am making all the salt additions in the kettle (except for a little Gypsum in the mash) which I have found does great things for the taste. I am also looking a lot now at the final beer pH, and finding that with good mash acidification and sparge water acidification I am ending up with beers in the 4.0 - 4.4 range which seems to be the accepted industry range.

As always, it is a work in progress...but thanks EZ Water!
 
GUB said:
Some five months later and I am ready to share my findings. This process has been great and one that I have learned a great deal from.

Basically I took a bunch of my most commonly used grains and did single grain type mini-mash tests. 100g of lightly crushed grain were mixed in schott bottles with 250ml of 70C brewing water, bringing the temp to approx 67C. I placed the bottles in a water bath that kept it a constant 67C. I waited around 30 mins and then took samples from each. Let the samples cool to room temp and then took pH readings on a good quality (accurate and calibrated) pH meter. Some of the more interesting results:

Pils malt: EZ Water lists it at 5.75. I recorded: Bestmaltz Pils 5.64, Bests Boh Pils 5.59, Dingeman Pils 5.72.

Maris Otter: EZ Water lists it at 5.77. I recorded: Simpson Maris Otter 5.52.

There are plenty of other variations in other grains but these are the most important for me as I brew a lot of pale beers with my super soft water.

The end result: All mash pHs have been +/- 0.1 of the EZ Water calc with the new figures placed in it. I started using acid malt to drop the pH, but now I have graduated to using 88% lactic acid (calculated on EZ Water). The last brew I did EZ water calculated 5.43 after acidification and I measured 5.42. Couldnt be happier! I highly recommend this to anyone looking to fine tune their mash pH.

It also means I am making all the salt additions in the kettle (except for a little Gypsum in the mash) which I have found does great things for the taste. I am also looking a lot now at the final beer pH, and finding that with good mash acidification and sparge water acidification I am ending up with beers in the 4.0 - 4.4 range which seems to be the accepted industry range.

As always, it is a work in progress...but thanks EZ Water!
Click to expand...

I modify the base grain pH in distilled water also based on 100g test mashes on my common base malts. The 2 that I've been using the most lately are [Crisp] Maris Otter & Castle Pilsner, both about 5.55. I've tested Rahr 2-Row and found it is also in the 5.6 range like EZ water makes note of. These are great base malts for brewing with RO water because a little specialty malt and brewing salts (CaCl2/CaSO4) bring the mash pH to the 5.4-5.45 range with RO water.
 
DUB and GSmith, Thanks for the input! Very valuable info there. I might incorporate some of it in the next version if that's ok with you two.
 
Thanks for sharing GUB,

When you say lightly crushed malt, is this how you usually crush the malt when you use it? You also mashed with 2.5 l/kg. I think the pH values TH are using coming from my work and I mashed them with 4 l/kg. It may matter a little.

Kai
 
Kaiser said:
Thanks for sharing GUB,

When you say lightly crushed malt, is this how you usually crush the malt when you use it? You also mashed with 2.5 l/kg. I think the pH values TH are using coming from my work and I mashed them with 4 l/kg. It may matter a little.

Kai
Click to expand...

Kai - I lighlty crushed the malt in a mortar and pestle of all things. The advice I received from this forum is that the consistency of the crush was not overly important. Someone even recommended using a coffee grinder. In other words, it was not the same consistency that I use in my brews.

As for the l/kg ratio I personally don't see a huge difference (non-scientific, in other words), as if I change my mash volume in EZwater3 from 38L to 50L (approx 2.5l/kg to 4.0l/kg) and keep my grain numbers/vol the same, the pH only rises 0.02. This says to me that water volume plays no part (well, no a significant difference). I could be understating this, happy to hear otherwise.

And for what it is worth, the example I gave in my "results" was the pale beer that was only 0.01 out (between EZ and actual)...I used the 2.5l/kg mini mash test as the basis of the mash pH calculation and actually mashed at around 4.1L/kg (12.5kg/50L water) and the results were near identical. In the future when I get a chance I could easily do a side by side in the lab.
 
GUB said:
Kai - I lighlty crushed the malt in a mortar and pestle of all things. The advice I received from this forum is that the consistency of the crush was not overly important. Someone even recommended using a coffee grinder. In other words, it was not the same consistency that I use in my brews.

As for the l/kg ratio I personally don't see a huge difference (non-scientific, in other words), as if I change my mash volume in EZwater3 from 38L to 50L (approx 2.5l/kg to 4.0l/kg) and keep my grain numbers/vol the same, the pH only rises 0.02. This says to me that water volume plays no part (well, no a significant difference). I could be understating this, happy to hear otherwise.

And for what it is worth, the example I gave in my "results" was the pale beer that was only 0.01 out (between EZ and actual)...I used the 2.5l/kg mini mash test as the basis of the mash pH calculation and actually mashed at around 4.1L/kg (12.5kg/50L water) and the results were near identical. In the future when I get a chance I could easily do a side by side in the lab.
Click to expand...

I've modified EZ water to scale the mash to a total of 100g and report the test water needed in mL (based on the actual planned water volume/weight ratio; typically 1.5 qt/lb). The grain is ground fine in a coffee grinder and mashed for 10-15 min in mason jars at 150F-160F (pic below). The crush isn't the same but the data has correlated well to actual mashes measured at 10-15 min.

One of these mashes can be done while heating the mash water to determine if any acid will be required for brewing a beer you have no experience with.

I have individual base grain pH in distilled water for:
Crisp Maris Otter
Rahr American 2-Row
Weyermann Pilsner
Castle Pilsner
Global Malt Dark Munich (10-14L)

If there are interest in those, I'd prefer to check them all one again and post the results. The pH meter is a Hanna 98128, 2 point calibration prior to testing room temperature samples and calibration verification after the readings.

Test Mash_Pic 1.jpg
 
GUB,

I was asking out of curiosity to see if there was any particular reason to your methods.

GUB said:
Kai - I lighlty crushed the malt in a mortar and pestle of all things. The advice I received from this forum is that the consistency of the crush was not overly important. Someone even recommended using a coffee grinder. In other words, it was not the same consistency that I use in my brews.
Click to expand...

I have seem some differences based on crush, but they were not all that large. I use a coffee grinder for my experiments and the result correlate reasonably well with the actual mashes.

As for the l/kg ratio I personally don't see a huge difference (non-scientific, in other words), as if I change my mash volume in EZwater3 from 38L to 50L (approx 2.5l/kg to 4.0l/kg) and keep my grain numbers/vol the same, the pH only rises 0.02. This says to me that water volume plays no part (well, no a significant difference). I could be understating this, happy to hear otherwise.
Click to expand...

This depends on the model that is implemented in EZ water. For the most part the amount of water doesn't play a big role, it's the amount of minerals that come with the water that have an effect. On the 2nd order there might be some dependency on mash thickness. At least that's what I observed in experiments. The Brewer's Friend mash chemistry calculator ignores mash thickness and it lines up fairly well with my brewing.

Kai
 
GUB said:
And for what it is worth, the example I gave in my "results" was the pale beer that was only 0.01 out (between EZ and actual)...I used the 2.5l/kg mini mash test as the basis of the mash pH calculation and actually mashed at around 4.1L/kg (12.5kg/50L water) and the results were near identical. In the future when I get a chance I could easily do a side by side in the lab.
Click to expand...

GUB, thanks for adding more data to the thread. This thread is over my head for much of the nitty-gritty, but still a fun read.

Oh, and if you ever get a chance to do some more experimentation, would you do a sample of rye malt for me? :mug:
 
Quick question about the acidulated malt input on the spreadsheet. Does its effect on the mash thickness get taken into account when estimating the mash pH? I noticed that if I tweak the calculated mash thickness to include it the mash pH changes and I wasn't sure if by me doing this I was "doubling up" on the acid malt's impact.
 
Randar said:
GUB, thanks for adding more data to the thread. This thread is over my head for much of the nitty-gritty, but still a fun read.

Oh, and if you ever get a chance to do some more experimentation, would you do a sample of rye malt for me? :mug:
Click to expand...

Luckily for you I did do a rye malt. Went through a little Rye PA/IPA fad so thought it would be good to know:

Weyermann Rye: 6.00 pH.
 
GUB said:
Luckily for you I did do a rye malt. Went through a little Rye PA/IPA fad so thought it would be good to know:

Weyermann Rye: 6.00 pH.
Click to expand...

Awesome! :ban:

I had a feeling it was towards the high end based on observation, but this will help me dial it in. Prost!
 
I'm playing with EZ Water and struggling with one aspect. I can't seem to get the Mash Ph down low. If I put in 100% distilled water, A fairly ordinary grain bill for a Bitter (or even a very dark Stout), and plenty of Gypsum, CaCl2, Epsom Salts (3g each in Mash) I still get a Mash Ph of 5.5. I can't believe that would happen if I brewed it.

So when would you ever add Chalk etc to raise Mash Ph? I thought Soft waters caused low Ph?

What am I missing that would lower Ph appreciably? Apart from Acidulated Malt obviously.

Thanks, Anthony
 
Calcium, and to an even lesser extent Magnesium, aren't very efficient in lowering mash pH. Depending on the pH of the basemalt you may need 2% acidulated malt to get the pH to the 5.4 range.

But I found that the pH of pale malts, as you would use in a bitter, is generally around 5.5-5.6. With some crystal and some gypsum/calcium chloride I do get my mash pH to around 5.4-5.5.

Kai
 
I can see how adding an acid will lower the Ph. My question was more that I know people with soft water, sometimes have to raise the Ph of the Mash using chalk for example. Playing around with the parameters in EZ Water, I can't seem to get a scenario where the Mash Ph is low, ever!
 

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