Once you AG, do you extract?

Just a question for the masses for AG brewers. Do you guys strictly AG after moving to AG or do you ever throw in an extract batch when lazy or limited on time to get some brew in your pipeline?

I have nothing fermenting and down to about 7 gallons of brew left in the keg and need something done soon. I just don't have the umph in me these days to spend 6hrs brewing an AG batch. Plus, my efficiency has been sucking badly and I can't quite figure out why. So with that said, I'm thinking about doing a few extract batches to just get something going for me. Except now, I feel like an AG snob and love the taste of my AG and am forgetful what my extract tasted like...so am stuck between a rock and a hard place. Thoughts?

I did a few when I first started all grain brewing. But then I started doing small 2.5-3 gallon BIAB batches on the stovetop. For me it is easier with less equipment, less hassle and a bit let time involved so I've just been doing these when I feel lazy. There is nothing wrong with a good crafted and fresh extract recipe made with enough yeast and the proper fermentation temp!

Brewnoob1 said:

Just a question for the masses for AG brewers. Do you guys strictly AG after moving to AG or do you ever throw in an extract batch when lazy or limited on time to get some brew in your pipeline?

I have nothing fermenting and down to about 7 gallons of brew left in the keg and need something done soon. I just don't have the umph in me these days to spend 6hrs brewing an AG batch. Plus, my efficiency has been sucking badly and I can't quite figure out why. So with that said, I'm thinking about doing a few extract batches to just get something going for me. Except now, I feel like an AG snob and love the taste of my AG and am forgetful what my extract tasted like...so am stuck between a rock and a hard place. Thoughts?

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Who cares what I think you should do? What do you think you should do?

I sometimes use a little extract when I cant fit enough grain in my mash tun to hit the gravity I want.
If your having efficiency issues go back to the basics. Thats what I did (Laziness being my main issue), my efficiency went from 50-60 to 91%, and its been at 91% for the last 2 batches. I expect it will stay there, unless I do something real high gravity.

I have never done a extract beer.....Until this weekend coming up. A buddy wants to try to make beer and wants to start with extract. Been reading up on how to do a extract batch and it does not seem to hard.

HBngNOK said:

Who cares what I think you should do? What do you think you should do?

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Just looking for opinions to see if I'm all alone in my thinking or if others out there deal with the same type of stuff (whether big or small and in this case...super small...just curious more than anything)

Varmintman said:

I have never done a extract beer.....Until this weekend coming up. A buddy wants to try to make beer and wants to start with extract. Been reading up on how to do a extract batch and it does not seem to hard.

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It's super easy...as is AG honestly...but AG takes WAAAAAAY longer. I can start to finish with cleanup an extract batch in under 2 hours.

I've never gone back. Why does a batch take six hours? I mean, for a decoction, a 90-minute boil, a 10 gallon batch or partigyle or something like that I guess I can see it, but my brew day for a normal single infusion beer looks like this:

0:00 Start water, grind grain
0:20 Water at mash-in temp, dough in
1:20 Drain MLT, batch sparge
1:50 Bring wort to boil, add hops, start 1 hr boil
3:00 Boil finishes, start wort chiller
3:20 Wort chilled, whirlpool
3:40 Rack and pitch yeast, clean up

I clean up along the way, so I don't have huge amounts of stuff left to clean when I get done. But this gets me from grinding grain to putting on the airlock in under 4 hours. Back when I switched I was actually surprised that it doesn't take that much more time to brew AG than it does to brew extract, particularly if you're steeping specialty grains. The only real additional step is the sparge. Does it normally take six hours for folks to brew beer?

jerrodm said:

I've never gone back. Why does a batch take six hours? I mean, for a decoction, a 90-minute boil, a 10 gallon batch or partigyle or something like that I guess I can see it, but my brew day for a normal single infusion beer looks like this:

0:00 Start water, grind grain
0:20 Water at mash-in temp, dough in
1:20 Drain MLT, batch sparge
1:50 Bring wort to boil, add hops, start 1 hr boil
3:00 Boil finishes, start wort chiller
3:20 Wort chilled, whirlpool
3:40 Rack and pitch yeast, clean up

I clean up along the way, so I don't have huge amounts of stuff left to clean when I get done. But this gets me from grinding grain to putting on the airlock in under 4 hours. Back when I switched I was actually surprised that it doesn't take that much more time to brew AG than it does to brew extract, particularly if you're steeping specialty grains. The only real additional step is the sparge. Does it normally take six hours for folks to brew beer?

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It depends on my heating method honestly. When I use the stove, it takes forever to bring up water to mash temp, and then bring it up to a full boil. If I use propane, it takes 20ish minutes. So yeah, I've done AG in 4 hours or so...but it has taken me anywhere from 4-6 just depending on variables.

It takes me six hours, but my brew gear is scattered about, some in the garage, but I don't brew there for several reasons, most on the second floor, and the rest on the patio, where I actually brew. My setup and takedown probably consume close to an hour. So, yeah, if it was all close at hand I could probably get away with five hours.

This, coupled with the fact I have two kids to keep my busy, means only about half my brews are AG. The rest are a combination of partial mash or various forms of extract, including a rare canned kit here and there.

I brew 2-3 gallon extract batches as yeast starters for my 15 gallon AG brews. Works really well AND I'm not dumping starter wort.

I still do both, it's mostly a matter of how much time I have. AG usually takes me about 1.5-2 hours more than an extract batch, and that can be enough for me to not have time to brew. I can easily fit an extract batch in during kiddo nap time.

I've been brewing for 5 years now. The first two months were extract and it's been all grain ever since. If extract was cheaper I'd knock out an extract batch occasionally due to its simplicity/speed, but when you can buy 2-row for $0.50 a pound and get 89% efficiency... I haven't looked back.

jerrod you are not even close man. what about the time it takes to get the water out of the RO tap? what about the time it takes to setup the equipment? what about time spent making starters? what about time spent on water additions? what about cleaning/sanitizing fermenters? time spent setting up the grain mill station? weighing out grains?
you make it sound like there is a magic beer fairy setting all of this up and you just show up to kick the tires and light the fires. if you are able to just use water straight from the tap i would consider you in the minority of people homebrewing with tap water. most have to deal with chloromine or at the least chlorine. you are telling me that you can get a full boil going in 10 minutes? cleaning up along the way still leaves some dirty equipment at the end that you would spend time working on. i am not convinced, not that it matters in the least, that you are accounting for all the steps involved along the way. the time it takes varies based on the procedure and partly on batch size. regardless, its takes more time than boiling a can of syrup in water and calling it wort, mmmkay...

bigbeergeek said:

I've been brewing for 5 years now. The first two months were extract and it's been all grain ever since. If extract was cheaper I'd knock out an extract batch occasionally due to its simplicity/speed, but when you can buy 2-row for $0.50 a pound and get 89% efficiency... I haven't looked back.

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That's my thing too--the cost. Being a relatively recent grad-school escapee, paying $45+ for an extract kit is not something I could justify doing on a regular basis. OTOH, I just brewed 5 gal. brown ale for something like $12.

GarageDweller said:

jerrod you are not even close man. what about the time it takes to get the water out of the RO tap? what about the time it takes to setup the equipment? what about time spent making starters? what about time spent on water additions? what about cleaning/sanitizing fermenters? time spent setting up the grain mill station?
you make it sound like there is a magic beer fairy setting all of this up and you just show up to kick the tires and light the fires. if you are able to just use water straight from the tap i would consider you in the minority of people homebrewing with tap water. most have to deal with chloromine or at the least chlorine. you are telling me that you can get a full boil going in 10 minutes? cleaning up along the way still leaves some dirty equipment at the end that you would spend time working on. i am not convinced, not that it matters in the least, that you are accounting for all the steps involved along the way. the time it takes varies based on the procedure and partly on batch size. regardless, its takes more time than boiling a can of syrup in water and calling it wort, mmmkay...

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I use my tap water, unless it's for a very light beer. I suppose for those with water issues that does raise additional complications. As far as the mill goes, it's always setup and ready to go--I've got a simple corona mill-in-bucket station, just plug in the drill and grind. I also start heating the first runnings while I'm batch sparging and drain the sparge water directly into my heating BK so yes, I do get a 6.5 gal. boil within 10 (maybe 15) minutes. The other stuff (making a starter, cleaning/sanitizing the kettle, wort chiller, racking cane, fermenters, thermometers/hydrometer, etc.) is all identical whether you're doing extract or AG--is there something special about extract that means you don't need a starter? And, yes, I do spend probably 30 minutes extra cleaning when I'm done, but my point is still that I can (and often do) go from grinding grain to airlock on my fermenter in under four hours.

Incidentally, I didn't mean that post as a slight, although I realized going back that it might have sounded that way. So, apologies if it came out like that. I was honestly curious if it really takes most folks 6 hours or more to do a simple, single infusion AG brew. For me it's somewhere around 4 hours. And I think for extract (it's been a little while, so I can't say for sure) I used to take around 3 hours total. So I guess you could squeeze in an extract brew in some cases where you don't have enough time to AG. But to my mind the time savings aren't really that great...

jerrodm said:

I was honestly curious if it really takes most folks 6 hours or more to do a simple, single infusion AG brew. For me it's somewhere around 4 hours.

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I built a brew schedule that makes sure I am always doing something much like what you listed and I can rock one out in about four hours as well. I also use a plate chiller and can chill in under five minutes without wasting a billion gallons of water. If you're economical about your time everything can be done quickly.

I've been getting used to mash temperatures for my last few brews, which means getting pointlessly stressed out for no reason, of course. I got an extract+steeping grains kit for Christmas, looking forward to a short, simple brew day once a primary opens up.

Do exclusively PM/Extract after much success AG.

With partial boil and chilling by topping off with ice, my brewday is done in 2 hours or so.

AG is at least twice that and for me not worth it at this point in my life.

It seems like i run into many hombrewers who were AG and went back to extracts. For the same reasons you listed "time". It took me awile to try out the diffrent online vendors untill i found one that was solid and had great turn around. Its really hard for me to commit to a full day of just brewing. Maybe when i retire.

Not to mention places like Morebeer and Austin has kits in the $25 range.

Depending on th weather.

If. it is bad outside I will do a partial mash in the kitchen. Nice, AG outside.

jerrodm said:

I've never gone back. Why does a batch take six hours? I mean, for a decoction, a 90-minute boil, a 10 gallon batch or partigyle or something like that I guess I can see it, but my brew day for a normal single infusion beer looks like this:

0:00 Start water, grind grain
0:20 Water at mash-in temp, dough in
1:20 Drain MLT, batch sparge
1:50 Bring wort to boil, add hops, start 1 hr boil
3:00 Boil finishes, start wort chiller
3:20 Wort chilled, whirlpool
3:40 Rack and pitch yeast, clean up

I clean up along the way, so I don't have huge amounts of stuff left to clean when I get done. But this gets me from grinding grain to putting on the airlock in under 4 hours. Back when I switched I was actually surprised that it doesn't take that much more time to brew AG than it does to brew extract, particularly if you're steeping specialty grains. The only real additional step is the sparge. Does it normally take six hours for folks to brew beer?

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Nope, time is about 4 hours and I do a 75 minute mash so I can do a workout in between... lol

GarageDweller said:

jerrod you are not even close man. what about the time it takes to get the water out of the RO tap? what about the time it takes to setup the equipment? what about time spent making starters? what about time spent on water additions? what about cleaning/sanitizing fermenters? time spent setting up the grain mill station? weighing out grains?
you make it sound like there is a magic beer fairy setting all of this up and you just show up to kick the tires and light the fires. if you are able to just use water straight from the tap i would consider you in the minority of people homebrewing with tap water. most have to deal with chloromine or at the least chlorine. you are telling me that you can get a full boil going in 10 minutes? cleaning up along the way still leaves some dirty equipment at the end that you would spend time working on. i am not convinced, not that it matters in the least, that you are accounting for all the steps involved along the way. the time it takes varies based on the procedure and partly on batch size. regardless, its takes more time than boiling a can of syrup in water and calling it wort, mmmkay...

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I disagree.. I take water out of the tap. Brew with 110,000 btu burner and its less than 4 hours. I never sit while brewing and watch....I clean... Prep hops... But I also brew every other week so I have a system that works well.

I probably will do an extract kit again, mainly because there were a couple from Norhtern Brewer that I really enjoyed. It does take less time to do extract, but really not all that much. The majority of time in extract was getting all the stuff out and ready to brew, heating water to boil, then cleaning everything up when it was done. The only thing I've added to that process is now crushing grains (which I usually do late the night before), heating up a few extra gallons of water (doing other stuff while that is heating up), waiting for the mash time and sparge, then cleaning up the grains (I do this during the boil). That has all probably added about 2 hours to my brew day now that I have the process down. So far, I have found that 2 hours to be well worth it in my over all pleasure I get from the beer I am now making.

jerrodm said:

As far as the mill goes, it's always setup and ready to go--I've got a simple corona mill-in-bucket station, just plug in the drill and grind.

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Does it mill the grains instantly, or does it still take time? Do you mill them directly into your mash tun, or into a bucket that you subsequently must carry to your mash tun and dump in? When you dough-in, do you not have to stir the grains to mix thoroughly? Do you hit your temperature bang-on immediately, or do you have to stir a little until you hit it?

I'm being a little pedantic, but I agree with GarageDweller. There are a myriad of (albeit trivial) steps that all add up to consume a non-trivial amount of time. Some of them are setting things up, some are moving water/wort around, some are waiting for temperatures to heat/cool, but it's the aggregation of all these little steps that take a theoretical 3.5 hour brew day to an actual 5 hour brew day.

jerrodm said:

my point is still that I can (and often do) go from grinding grain to airlock on my fermenter in under four hours.

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Then I guess we're not measuring the same things. My brew day doesn't start with milling grains. It starts with weighing them out and setting up my equipment.

Likewise, it doesn't end with affixing an airlock. It ends when the last piece of equipment is washed, rinsed, and drying, back in the basement where it is stored.

kombat said:

Does it mill the grains instantly, or does it still take time? Do you mill them directly into your mash tun, or into a bucket that you subsequently must carry to your mash tun and dump in? When you dough-in, do you not have to stir the grains to mix thoroughly? Do you hit your temperature bang-on immediately, or do you have to stir a little until you hit it?
Then I guess we're not measuring the same things. My brew day doesn't start with milling grains. It starts with weighing them out and setting up my equipment.

Likewise, it doesn't end with affixing an airlock. It ends when the last piece of equipment is washed, rinsed, and drying, back in the basement where it is stored.

Some of them are setting things up, some are moving water/wort around, some are waiting for temperatures to heat/cool, but it's the aggregation of all these little steps that take a theoretical 3.5 hour brew day to an actual 5 hour brew day.

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I'm really not trying to be argumentative about this, but I'm also not speaking theoretically here--Dec. 23rd I started brewing a brown ale at 11:30 and pitched my yeast at 3:10. Although I didn't record the time when I finished cleaning up, I would guess that I was done by 3:45.

My grain is already measured out, because I condition it the night before and leave it covered in an airtight bucket for grinding the next morning. Certainly the grains take time to mill--the 20 minutes that I indicated in my earlier post. You're right that I didn't include every single step (like pouring the grains from the bucket into the mash tun, which takes about 3 seconds), but my timing is still reflective of how much time it takes between each of the major steps.

My original point, which I still think is true, is that the additional time that I spend on brew day since moving to all grain is not too great from my perspective--when I brewed extract I would usually be somewhere between 2 and 2 1/2 hours between turning the stove on and putting in my airlock. Now that I brew AG and have developed a good routine, a standard single-infusion batch takes me about four hours, sometimes a little less, between the same two points. That's about an hour and a half difference, which I can understand is enough for some people to prefer extract (which is less complicated as well, in addition to taking less time) over AG.

I realized after re-reading my initial comment that it might have sounded a little like I was bragging about how fast I brew AG, which wasn't my intent. I was curious, because I thought six hours for a normal brew day seemed a little long compared to what I do. But people brew for different reasons and have different perspectives on what constitutes an optimal brewing experience. Hell, there are brewers who have fully automated e-brewing systems that they can control from their iPads, and don't even have to be at home to brew! I on the other hand spent New Year's Day working on a Belgian partigyle that took me the better part of the day, and I've several triple-decoction batches that take five, six or seven hours to get completely through. So I'm not saying "faster is better", or that those who take six hours to brew AG are doing it wrong--I was really just curious as to how long it takes most people to go from grain to carboy. Sorry if that didn't come through in the first place.

I suspect, if I didn't have to drag gear all over the place and everything went smooth and as planned, I do clean as I go, on a very good day I might, MIGHT, be able to get an AG in 4 1/2 hours, 5 hours would probably be doable on most occasions. I believe a generic answer to this thread would be, AG takes most people longer than their extract brews. Some are able to streamline their process and, obviously, times will vary from one brewer to the next. Worrying about it too much is like the people who come on here and moan that their efficiency is ONLY 75% and they can't understand what they're doing wrong and why isn't it at LEAST in the midy 80% range. If someone tells me they can get an AG brew done in 3 1/2 to 4 hours, great! I hope we both enjoy the brew day just as much, no matter how long it takes.

Shooter said:

I suspect, if I didn't have to drag gear all over the place and everything went smooth and as planned, I do clean as I go, on a very good day I might, MIGHT, be able to get an AG in 4 1/2 hours, 5 hours would probably be doable on most occasions. I believe a generic answer to this thread would be, AG takes most people longer than their extract brews. Some are able to streamline their process and, obviously, times will vary from one brewer to the next. Worrying about it too much is like the people who come on here and moan that their efficiency is ONLY 75% and they can't understand what they're doing wrong and why isn't it at LEAST in the midy 80% range. If someone tells me they can get an AG brew done in 3 1/2 to 4 hours, great! I hope we both enjoy the brew day just as much, no matter how long it takes.

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Cheers to that!

Shooter said:

I suspect, if I didn't have to drag gear all over the place and everything went smooth and as planned, I do clean as I go, on a very good day I might, MIGHT, be able to get an AG in 4 1/2 hours, 5 hours would probably be doable on most occasions. I believe a generic answer to this thread would be, AG takes most people longer than their extract brews. Some are able to streamline their process and, obviously, times will vary from one brewer to the next. Worrying about it too much is like the people who come on here and moan that their efficiency is ONLY 75% and they can't understand what they're doing wrong and why isn't it at LEAST in the midy 80% range. If someone tells me they can get an AG brew done in 3 1/2 to 4 hours, great! I hope we both enjoy the brew day just as much, no matter how long it takes.

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This is the big issue I have. If I had a specific brewery area, wher all my equipment stayed, all I had to do was light burners and add water, there is no doubt I could get an all grain batch done in probably 4 hours. I spend a lot of time Moving things up to where I brew, then taking them down to where I store them. I do count all of that in. It's really the only part I don't enjoy, luggin all the stuff around.

I'd actually be kind of scared if I had that kind of set up though, especially some of the electric breweries I've seen on here. If I had an actual home brewery and not a garage, I'd probably be brewing 3 or 4 times a week. I really do enjoy the process that much. The only thing that stops me from not firing up the burners when I get home from work on a weeknight, is the thought of dragging everything back to it's storage place after the clean up. Hell, even if I had one spot I could store everything it might make a huge difference.

Clonefan94 said:

This is the big issue I have. If I had a specific brewery area, wher all my equipment stayed, all I had to do was light burners and add water, there is no doubt I could get an all grain batch done in probably 4 hours. I spend a lot of time Moving things up to where I brew, then taking them down to where I store them. I do count all of that in. It's really the only part I don't enjoy, luggin all the stuff around.

I'd actually be kind of scared if I had that kind of set up though, especially some of the electric breweries I've seen on here. If I had an actual home brewery and not a garage, I'd probably be brewing 3 or 4 times a week. I really do enjoy the process that much. The only thing that stops me from not firing up the burners when I get home from work on a weeknight, is the thought of dragging everything back to it's storage place after the clean up. Hell, even if I had one spot I could store everything it might make a huge difference.

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That's an excellent point that I really didn't think of. I am lucky enough to have a dedicated shed with everything set up and ready to go. I forgot how much time that saved me when I had everything there and ready to go at a moments notice.

I find little ways to shorten my AG brew day.

I mash overnight. That's a big one. A few days before during the week the prep work gets done; measuring the grains, milling, etc.

After that my brew day winds down to maybe a few hours.

I can't see myself going back to Extract. For me the basic logic and control of all grain makes it preferable and I think that comes through when I teach it to others.

I never really answered the OP's first question and that is ... yes! I still do an extract batch every now and then. especially when it's one of the kits I tried years ago and it's on sale. Morebeer has some great extract kits that if they go on sale... I jump on them!

Thanks for all the discussion fellas!

I ended up doing my first extract batch last night which is the first in about 8 months. I have to say, it was a NICE change going from heating up water to cleaning up in less than 3 hours! I will say though that it didn't feel like a normal brew day, but in the end, I'll have beer!

To answer my original post, I too will probably do a mixture now of extract and AG. Personally, I have made some excellent extract and then some pretty crappy extract. I have also done some excellent AG and then some pretty crappy AG. I'm not sure if I have the proper palate to really tell much of a difference between my extract and AG. So, if I feel like doing everything and have the time, I'll do AG. If i don't have time, I'll do an extract and not feel bad about it!

I do an electric brutus style rig, and I'm usually around 5 hours, but could be faster if I needed to be (maybe 4 hours min). The 3 gallon batch size helps.

I'm considering doing an extract brew, I'm almost out of beer (and new kegerator demands to be filled) and just don't have a lot of time. I can do an extract after work, but an AG after work would be more difficult. I taste the difference in a malty beer, but for something hop dominated with high quality DME, extract is alright.

The worst part is how much DME costs compared to grain... that is tough to swallow.

I started off right into AG. Did about 15 batches before i finally tried extract. Follwed all processes to a T including pitching a healthy amount of yeast, aerated well, and held ferm temps in check. I could tell little to no diffrence in taste between extract and all grain, but the extract kit was also a simple red ale. Anything involving adjuncts or the like will continue to be mashed, as well as probably 90% of my brews. I'll continue to switch it up when time doesn't permit to brew an AG batch tho.

I definitely do. It's a quick and easy brew day, and extract makes great beer. I've probably done two or three since I went to AG.

edit: double post. Thanks in-flight wifi

I just finished my 3rd AG and I have to say I will never return to straight extract. Doing AG and handeling all of the grain just feels more like brewing to me then stirring in some syrup. That said I wouldn't turn down an extract or partial mash kit were it handed to me but for cost and experience I don't think you can beat AG.

i switched to all grain a little over 2 years ago. i've gone back to extract 2 times since.
first time i went back to extract i wanted to recreate a porter i used to do when i did partial mash. everything went really well and the beer came out good.
second time i went back to extract was when i first moved into my new apartment, and i was very low on cash so i went and got one of those brewer's best kits. it was an altbier. the kit must have been old cause it had that twang thing.
but, i want to try another extract batch again sometime soon and see how it goes.