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Brewme

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Does anyone brew like the Aussies with one vessel for both the MT and kettle. They called this method Brew in a Bag.
 
I brewed in a bag today

Partly because its CRAPPY out so I was relagated to a small stove-top batch

Its the brew club yeast experiment malt bill so its all getting bottled. DOnt mind a small batch for this :D

My efficiency was damn close to what I get batch sparging (83-84+%)
 
Does anyone brew like the Aussies with one vessel for both the MT and kettle. They called this method Brew in a Bag.
Yep - done it loads and it works very well. I'd be very interested to see a side-by-side comparison of BIAB and a standard mash tun, to see what noticeable differences there are, if any.
 
Yeah, it was interesting to see that John Palmer had just discovered something that a lot of people have been doing on here for awhile...It's another confirmation that even "experts" still may have a limited knowlegebase...and also that places like this is where you will often find the "outta the box" and groundbreaking ideas, that eventually end up as part of the canon of brewing and end up in books and magazine articles down the line..

And also what I've been saying since late last year that the Aussie homebrewers are ahead of us in a lot of ways thanks to prohibition in the states kinda slowing stuff down..

There's a couple of great tutorials on here about doing biag...if you search you will find them.

If you like that check out the first ever podcast on homebrewing...the aussies started it as a radio show over a decade agon and have been online for at least 5 or more years.

CraftBrewer Radio
 
I currently do mini mash this way and I don't see a reason why not to do the same with AG. What are the main advantages with a 3 vessel system over this method and is it worth that advantage?
 
The only downside I saw was the need for a bigger brewpot.Otherwise I thought"Damn I've been wasting money on a bunch of un-necessary eqpt."
 
My efficiency was damn close to what I get batch sparging (83-84+%)

This is partly b/c of the thin mash which enables you to convert more of the starches in the malt. That offsets the lower extraction rate that you have in the lauter. You basically have a no-sparge when you brew in a bag.

Kai
 
I got 65-75% when I tried BIAB a few times, but I didn't do a mash-out. I've thought of trying it again with my RIMS - kinda goes against some of the principles of BIAB (simple, less equipment, etc) but has peaked my interest.
 
another efficiency (+) for BIAB is the fact that there is no dead space and that there is a slight squeezing of the grain.

I would even argue that a full squeeze of the grain may be possible w/o a detrimental effect on the beer. I.e. start twisting the bag so you squeeze as much wort as possible out of it w/o bursting it. I take the confidence that this works from the fact that some commercial brewers use mash filter which do exactly that: they squeeze the spent grain to get more wort out of them.

Kai
 
This is partly b/c of the thin mash which enables you to convert more of the starches in the malt. That offsets the lower extraction rate that you have in the lauter. You basically have a no-sparge when you brew in a bag.

Kai

You can do a sparge still still with BIAB. John P said in his article that it isn't necessary but I have been sparging using BIAB method with my mini mashes. It would help efficiency as with the regular AG method, correct?

The reason I brought this up in the first place was b/c I want to go AG and this looks just as effective and efficient as a 3 vessel system without all the extra equipment.

Can someone talk me out of using this system? 1 vessel (a converted keg) verses 3?!
 
How are you sparging with BiaB? If you only have one vessel? Just wondering...
What I've done is when I remove the bag from the kettle, I leave it draining in my primary bucket. I then pour sparge-water onto the bag (still in the primary). I then transfer the bag to my secondary bucket, and pour the liquid at the bottom of my primary back into the kettle. I did that three times for the 10.5% Belgian I made. The OG of the third lot of sparge-water was 1.030, so there was still some sugar to be had from all that grain.
 
Danek,

You may want to use a separate bucket for sparging the bag. Unboiled wort is full of bacteria and wild yeast and I would keep that out of anything that you want to ferment in. Even if you sanitize later. It is always good practice to keep the tools for the cold and hot side of brewing separate.

As for sparging the bag you should not just pour water over it. Just submerge it in another pot/vessel that holds the sparge water and mix the grains thoroughly. Then drain the bag again. Basically batch sparging in a bag. Just pouring the sparge water over the bag will lead to uneven extraction. I’m inclined that the sparge water doesn’t even have to be hot and that you should be able to get away with cold brewing water in a bucket. Mainly b/c one of the advantages of BIAB is eliminating the need for another pot to heat the sparge water in. Sparging with cold water should make for a longer lauter -> boil time though.

Kai
 
What I've done is when I remove the bag from the kettle, I leave it draining in my primary bucket. I then pour sparge-water onto the bag (still in the primary). I then transfer the bag to my secondary bucket, and pour the liquid at the bottom of my primary back into the kettle.

So much for 1 vessel brewing I suppose... Where do you heat the sparge water?
 
So much for 1 vessel brewing I suppose... Where do you heat the sparge water?
On the stove-top. It's not a procedure I've seen listed as part of BIAB, but it uses kit I have lying around and gets some extra efficiency, so it works well enough.
 
You may want to use a separate bucket for sparging the bag. Unboiled wort is full of bacteria and wild yeast and I would keep that out of anything that you want to ferment in. Even if you sanitize later. It is always good practice to keep the tools for the cold and hot side of brewing separate.

As for sparging the bag you should not just pour water over it. Just submerge it in another pot/vessel that holds the sparge water and mix the grains thoroughly. Then drain the bag again. Basically batch sparging in a bag. Just pouring the sparge water over the bag will lead to uneven extraction. I’m inclined that the sparge water doesn’t even have to be hot and that you should be able to get away with cold brewing water in a bucket. Mainly b/c one of the advantages of BIAB is eliminating the need for another pot to heat the sparge water in. Sparging with cold water should make for a longer lauter -> boil time though.
All excellent points Kai - thanks for your thoughts. :mug:
 
As for sparging the bag you should not just pour water over it. Just submerge it in another pot/vessel that holds the sparge water and mix the grains thoroughly. Then drain the bag again. Basically batch sparging in a bag. Just pouring the sparge water over the bag will lead to uneven extraction. I’m inclined that the sparge water doesn’t even have to be hot and that you should be able to get away with cold brewing water in a bucket. Mainly b/c one of the advantages of BIAB is eliminating the need for another pot to heat the sparge water in. Sparging with cold water should make for a longer lauter -> boil time though.

Kai

This would also eliminate the concern of the Liquid to Grain ratio with this BIAB method. I have an extra pot that I could sparge with, so why not. Now I just need a converted keg to start my AG process.
 
What concern exists regarding the liquid to grain ratio?

Kai
I'm not really at all knowledgeable about the BIAB technique (though I'm thinking of trying it soon), but my understanding was that some people were concerned that the thin mash would denature the B-amylase too quickly and lead to a more dextrinous wort. (though from what I've heard, the empirical evidence contradicts this)
 
I'm not really at all knowledgeable about the BIAB technique (though I'm thinking of trying it soon), but my understanding was that some people were concerned that the thin mash would denature the B-amylase too quickly and lead to a more dextrinous wort. (though from what I've heard, the empirical evidence contradicts this)

Those brewers are basing their concern on misinterpreted or outdated information found in home brewing textbooks. Fact is that b-amylase is denatured more quickly in thin mashes. But it is also fact that conversion happens quicker in thin mashes and as a result b-amylase isn’t needed for that long anyway. Both effects seem to compensate each other and as a result mash thickness has little effect on fermentablility. This is my experience and also what is written in most brewing texts.

Kai
 
Those brewers are basing their concern on misinterpreted or outdated information found in home brewing textbooks. Fact is that b-amylase is denatured more quickly in thin mashes. But it is also fact that conversion happens quicker in thin mashes and as a result b-amylase isn’t needed for that long anyway. Both effects seem to compensate each other and as a result mash thickness has little effect on fermentablility. This is my experience and also what is written in most brewing texts.

Kai
ahh, thanks for the info!

so does that mean that one has to be more precise with hitting mash temps right away with a big thin mash?
 
so does that mean that one has to be more precise with hitting mash temps right away with a big thin mash?

Good point. Based on my understanding I'd say so. But I don't know how much less time one has with a thin mash compared to a thick one.

Kai
 
And also what I've been saying since late last year that the Aussie homebrewers are ahead of us in a lot of ways thanks to prohibition in the states kinda slowing stuff down..

I am on the opinion you are right there Revvy, not because I'm Australian, but because in my time trolling american and british blogs like this, we seem to be ahead of you guys. I believe our size (smaller population) helps -- our brew clubs are smaller and more contracted therefore we get the chance to see innovations quicker. Combine that with recognised Australian attitudes and willingness to experiment (as per the Palmer article in BYO) and you can see we are probably at the cutting edge of home brewing at the moment.

That said, American craft beer is miles ahead of our local scene, which is growing up but looks to the USA for guidance. Like the Amemricans, Australian brewers aren't stuck with the European models - we can adjust to suit available products to make great beers, not necessarily great beer styles that the Europeans remain with.


BIAB is probably not an Australian invention (the world has been brewing for 10,000 years so I reckon someone has thought of it) - its just it has been pioneered, championed and refined down under. It still has its critics and sceptics but as Danek in the UK and many in the US know, its not a bad way to brew. Personally I don't BIAB but that's my decision based on the gear I have. When assembling my AG stuff I scrounged, begged and borrowed like most everyone to get my lauter, kettle and tun. If I had all the money and the equipment was close at hand, I may have gone the BIAB route. But I haven't so I don't.

Hope you enjoyed the Aussie flavour of the last BYO - did everyone understand the "cubing" parts ?
 
What about the cooling of the wort in the sealed container? I read the article, neat read... definately something worth trying for some who are beginning all-grain I think. But, what about how they cool the wort overnight in a sealed container?

Any potential problems with this?
 
Any potential problems with this?

I gues this is calling for a side-by side experiment.

I like the idea of questioning existing hombe brew knowledge. I have done the no-chill once with a lager and even after a night out in the cold it didn't get below 55F. So I had to pitch warm. I didn't really like that beer but I'm not sure if it was the warm pitching or the slow chilling.

Kai
 
I think I heard on the BN that it is not a good idea for seal hot liquid. I can't remember which show (from 2007), but the guest was saying nasties can form that will actually harm you. If the Aussies do this all the time, maybe this guy was wrong but I do remember the concern was brought up.
 
I think I heard on the BN that it is not a good idea for seal hot liquid. I can't remember which show (from 2007), but the guest was saying nasties can form that will actually harm you. If the Aussies do this all the time, maybe this guy was wrong but I do remember the concern was brought up.

Never believe everything you read. The proof is in the pudding.

After boiling is complete, the contents are whirlpooled so most sediment / trub / hot break pools in middle of keg. The wort goes into the cube at near boil temperatures and the cube filled until absolutely no more can go into the cube. At that temperature the liquid is at higher than pasteurisation temperature, so the cube gets a second sanitation regime. What nasties are there to hurt you - certainly nothing from the cube (which of course is properly cleaned and sanitised prior to filling).

The comment that the cube contents are fermented next day is of course, not entirely correct. Many cubes are kept for months before fermenting, though realistically, most brewers will ferment it much sooner. If done properly, the cube is airtight and therefore there is little that can go wrong. Rather than place a fresh cube in the fridge, I'll let the cube cool overnight then put into my fridge for a day or two before fermentation, especially if using a lager yeast.

The reason most Aussies cube is that water is a bit scarce and many do not have u-beaut cooling systems that use gallons of tap water. We also can attend a brew day at a mates place / club day and bring home a cube to ferment at a later date.

Its so blindingly simple that it makes you wonder why it isn't more recognised.
 
does it have to be a cube?

Joking aside. This is the first time I read about this. Before I thought that this no chill meant leaving the wort in the kettle and letting it cool there. The only concern I would have with prolonged storage in the cube is botulism. Boiling doesn't kill its spores (only pressure canning does) and it thrives in O2 free enviromnents. While the pH of beer is too low for it to grow it can gow in wort where the pH is higher.

Has that concern be discussed before?

Kai
 
I am going to get myself a "cube" and try this on my next brew. I will only cool it overnight in the cube, aerate and pitch the following day.

I presume that any worries about DMS are alleviated in the boil? So sealing up hot wort wont be an issue there?

I am all about conserving water...

What about the lack of getting the cold break? What issues could that cause?
 
does it have to be a cube?

Joking aside. This is the first time I read about this. Before I thought that this no chill meant leaving the wort in the kettle and letting it cool there. The only concern I would have with prolonged storage in the cube is botulism. Boiling doesn't kill its spores (only pressure canning does) and it thrives in O2 free environments. While the pH of beer is too low for it to grow it can grow in wort where the pH is higher.

Has that concern be discussed before?

Kai

Botulism was brought up on the BN podcast. I think I'll just stick with a wort cooler.
 
A handful of people die each year from food borne botulism. Almost always from eating improperly home-canned food. This cube thing is certainly improper home canning.

Now, there will probably be no botulin toxin in these beers. The problem is, that on the off chance that there is, you find out by dying.
 
Screw it, I am looking for a 5 gallon cube... I am game. I will try it. I only plan to chill overnight, then pitch. Why? Shortens my BREW DAY, and uses a lot less water than my IC. If it works, cool, if not... oh well, I have to brew again, DARN!

I will use a recipe that I have brewed about 5x... to see if there is any noticeable difference.

Anyone with a good source for HDPE "cubes"?
 
A handful of people die each year from food borne botulism. Almost always from eating improperly home-canned food. This cube thing is certainly improper home canning.

Now, there will probably be no botulin toxin in these beers. The problem is, that on the off chance that there is, you find out by dying.

Is 24 hours long enough to get botulism? How come the Aussies arent dropping like flies?
 
From: the FDA on home canning
"C. Botulinum is a living organism which is almost universally present. Under certain conditions, C. botulinum can grow in foods and produce a powerful toxin which affects the nervous system. C. botulinum will only grow in foods which: are packaged in the absence of oxygen; have a "favorable" pH and temperature; and contain water and nutrients necessary for its growth. Low-acid canned foods provide this favorable environment. When a product is acidified to a pH of 4.6 or less, according to FDA's Good Manufacturing Practices, inhibition of the growth of C. botulinum is assured. "


What is the pH of wort?

P.S. The article mentioned usplastic.com, anyone see the part number?
 
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