Exploring "no chill" brewing

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LooyvilleLarry said:
So, Pol, if you do a hybrid approach of dropping to 105F, no hop adjustments would be necessary.
This would meet two of the original goals (to a lesser degree)
1. Lower cooling water usage
2. Less brewing time.

PS. I LOVE that shirt and hereby Double Dog Dare you to wear it in public with SWMBO.:)
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Well, it is a political shirt... so it doesnt really refer to the party I am with.

Hey, when do those no chills go to your BJCP friends?
 
-TH- said:
So do you wait till active fermentation is over? Or would it work to put the aroma hops in after it cools but before aerating/pitching?
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After fermentation... otherwise the CO2 from the fermentation will scrub out much of the aroma.
 
The Pol said:
After fermentation... otherwise the CO2 from the fermentation will scrub out much of the aroma.
Click to expand...

I don't mean to be a bother...but...if I wanted to match a recipe that normally called for hops at flameout and no dry hops, would dry hopping like you do still work? I want the result to be as close to the "chill version" as possible.
 
Real quick...if I am using a hop sack, and remove the hops before the wort goes into the no chill bucket do I still need to adjust my hop addition times?

Or should I still adjust because the oils are in the wort already?
 
Someone will answer who knows more about it, but I also use a hop sack and take it out before draining into the NC container. I find the adjustment is still necessary, presumeably because even though the hops have been removed the oil is present and utilization continues. (I've only done 12-14 NC batches and still experimenting)
 
That's what I was thinking. I have about another hour before I need to start adding hops so I'll see if anyone else chimes in.

So at this rate I may as well save the hop sack for my non-no-chill brew days and just dump everything into the no-chill bucket...
 
Ok completed my first no chill brew day. It was a two hearted type beer.

My hop schedule was 60min, 30, 15, 5 so I did 40, 10, FWH, and cube hop respectively(although I am doubting this cube hop, maybe should have just dry hopped it?). In a week or so I am throwing in an ounce of homegrown centennial!

I feel like my container is staying really hot though. So of course I am worried about the beer getting too bitter....

A long way back in this thread I typed about how I would transfer the beer. I put my funnel in and just dumped everything in! HSA be damned! Really no other way to filter out the hops and stuff.

I'll pitch tomorrow and come back with some tasting notes in a month or so.
 
Yeah, that cube will stay hot for quite sometime. I usually give it a couple hours then throw it in the fermentation fridge if there's room. You basically just need it to sanitize the container which should only take a couple mintues. But on the other hand you're asking a lot out of your fridge to cool 5 gallons of hot wort down. It's more energy efficient to wait till the next day to stick in the fridge.

Congrats on your first no chill brew.

Oh, and your hop sack question. Once you throw the hops in the oils go in as well. I would still make the adjustments via the hop adjustment chart.
 
I have a question about No Chill and First Wort Hopping.

The guidelines contained in this thread state that 15 and 10 minute additions should be changed to First Wort Hop Additions. However, let me get this cleared up, you leave first wort hops in for the entire boil correct? Thus, these hops are going to give you a lot of IBU's compared to a 6ish IBU (depending on variety and AA) addition at 10 minutes.

So, do you just reformulate your other additions to get the correct IBU's if having a late addition flavor is that important to you?
 
dcgrp said:
I have a question about No Chill and First Wort Hopping.

The guidelines contained in this thread state that 15 and 10 minute additions should be changed to First Wort Hop Additions. However, let me get this cleared up, you leave first wort hops in for the entire boil correct? Thus, these hops are going to give you a lot of IBU's compared to a 6ish IBU (depending on variety and AA) addition at 10 minutes.

So, do you just reformulate your other additions to get the correct IBU's if having a late addition flavor is that important to you?
Click to expand...

IBUs dont matter, only perception.

FWHing increases utilization and adds more IBUs than a 60 minute addition will, but the perception is more like a 20 minute addition. I have adjusted my actual FWH IBUs in ProMash to equal that of a 20 minute addition so that I can formulate recipes this way.

So, if a FWH addition adds 20 IBUs, but it tastes like 6... do you care that it is 20? No... you care only about the perception.

This being said, in ProMash I simply adjusted my FWH utilization to equal that of a 20 minute addition so that I can accurately measure my IBU perception of my beer.
 
SO I have had some wort in a cube for a month now. Can I get botulism? Been thinking about that. Do I gotta dump it?

David
 
Droot said:
SO I have had some wort in a cube for a month now. Can I get botulism? Been thinking about that. Do I gotta dump it?

David
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Ha ha ha, you are kidding right? Tell me you are kidding.

People store this stuff for MONTHS, have you not read the no chill threads here or at the Aussie board?
 
Droot said:
SO I have had some wort in a cube for a month now. Can I get botulism? Been thinking about that. Do I gotta dump it?

David
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You will be fine. I am about to keg mine that had been stored for 5-6 weeks before fermenting, and the sample I pulled was great.
 
It seems like it. But I think it is cheaper to go through US plastics considering the shipping cost for that ebay link.
 
doubleb said:
Is this thing a suitable no chill cube?

5 GALLON / 20 LITER HDPE CARBOY - eBay (item 290298605156 end time Aug-23-09 03:38:27 PDT)

I've got to find a way to shorten my brew day or I'll hardly ever brew again. :(
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I have one of those, its too wimpy when Hot. I was afraid to move it till it cooled. I did turn it upside down while still HOT.

I just started ferment of a 4 week old hopped cube. I strained the hops out as I poured it into the fermenter. I had a head of foam to the top of the fermenter, so I didn't do anything more for o2.

I used a 1.2 litre starter on a stir plate for 3 days.
 
So I had extensive conversations with The Pol the past few days and I am convinced enough to give this a shot. I can see the arguments possibly against longer term storage but for just a 24hr cool down this has piqued my curiosity. Is there any drawback to cooling in one of the Winpak containers, then transfering to an ale pail for fermentation once cool? I am wondering if splashing the wort into an ale pail could get some decent aeration?
 
donshizzles said:
So I had extensive conversations with The Pol the past few days and I am convinced enough to give this a shot. I can see the arguments possibly against longer term storage but for just a 24hr cool down this has piqued my curiosity. Is there any drawback to cooling in one of the Winpak containers, then transfering to an ale pail for fermentation once cool? I am wondering if splashing the wort into an ale pail could get some decent aeration?
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Hey bro, it was fun sharing the flight deck with you this week... you are a better pilot than the FO that came on afterward...

You CAN do that shizzle... typically before I pitch, I just shake the bejeeeses out of the Winpak.
 
Post # 377. I decided to go with no o2. I had a full head of foam by 14 hours. It climbed up to 70, but I got it back down to 68. I put a blow off tube on it just in case. Have not needed it yet......

David
 
The Pol said:
Hey bro, it was fun sharing the flight deck with you this week... you are a better pilot than the FO that came on afterward...

You CAN do that shizzle... typically before I pitch, I just shake the bejeeeses out of the Winpak.
Click to expand...

Likewise bro! Its always a great sigh of relief when the CA is uber cool. Don't know the other FO so.....but thanks for the props!

Ok so I'm going to use a Winpak as a cooling vessel and then do what I had asked. Anything to avoid racking :mug:
 
donshizzles said:
Likewise bro! Its always a great sigh of relief when the CA is uber cool. Don't know the other FO so.....but thanks for the props!

Ok so I'm going to use a Winpak as a cooling vessel and then do what I had asked. Anything to avoid racking :mug:
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Ahh yes, we had discussed your aversion to racking back and forth to Denver! That is a sound option, do it, do it...
 
Shizzle, your PM box is full....

Here is the info you requested.
QD's
6739K64 6 Each Hose Couplings For Coolant, Sleeve-lck Sckt X Barb, 3/8"cplg Sz,1/2"hose Id
6739K59 7 Each Hose Couplings For Coolant, Plug, 1/2" Nptf Male, 3/8" Coupling Size

The female ones have barbs on them for 1/2" ID hoses. These will be hose ends.

The MALE ones have a threaded end, a 1/2" male end. This will attach to your ball valves on your kettles.
 
Did a Belgian Honey Rye in one of my winpaks a while back and was planning on using the yeast cake for a big wheatwine I'm doing this weekend. My concern is that there is a bunch of gunk in the cube other than yeast. Should I just build up a big starter instead?
 
smellysell said:
Did a Belgian Honey Rye in one of my winpaks a while back and was planning on using the yeast cake for a big wheatwine I'm doing this weekend. My concern is that there is a bunch of gunk in the cube other than yeast. Should I just build up a big starter instead?
Click to expand...

Why not do a quick yeast wash? That is what I am doing when I rack my Oktoberfeast off the S-04, then using that S-04 for the Spiced Holiday Ale that is coming up.
 
The Pol said:
Why not do a quick yeast wash? That is what I am doing when I rack my Oktoberfeast off the S-04, then using that S-04 for the Spiced Holiday Ale that is coming up.
Click to expand...

So something like this? Add the water like I'm doing a normal wash and let it settle. Pour out the yeast into a big jug and let it settle again and then pour the yeast off of that directly into the fermenter?
 
smellysell said:
So something like this? Add the water like I'm doing a normal wash and let it settle. Pour out the yeast into a big jug and let it settle again and then pour the yeast off of that directly into the fermenter?
Click to expand...

Yeah, something like that. Make sure the water that you use has been boiled, so there is no chance of infecting the yeast culture.

Swirl it around, pour it out into a jar or some clean container.

Let the JUNK settle out, the yeast will remain in suspension longer, you can then pour off the clean(er) yeast and re-use it.

You can either do this days-weeks in advance and store it in a sanitary environment.... or you can do this the day of, really, as the heavier junk particles will settle out rather quickly and you will get a much cleaner yeast sample to re-use.

Some people wash thier yeast several times before storing, but if you arent really storing it and want to simply clean it up, IMHO this procedure would be fine.
 
The Pol said:
FWIW... this is the conversion tool that I have come up with (it will continue to be tweaked I am sure) to convert regular recipe hop additions to NO CHILL applications. This is based on some of my own experience and reading on continued isomerization in the hot wort after it is transferred to the no chill cube.

Yes, isomerization takes place even when hops are removed, the oils are in the wort, not the hops at this point.

No_Chill_Hop_Adjust.bmp
Click to expand...

Pol, I was wondering, how confident are you with the accuracy of this chart? You mentioned that you will most likely be tweaking it a bit. The reason I ask is because I believe one of the keys to success for no-chill brewing is going to be the accuracy of the hops adjustment. What I would love to see is this chart be promoted to "gospel" designation, but I'm not sure what it would take to get there. Maybe other "no-chillers" can confirm these adjustments or is there some scientific explaination to back it up, etc.? What are your thoughts?
 
The Pol said:
Yeah, something like that. Make sure the water that you use has been boiled, so there is no chance of infecting the yeast culture.

Swirl it around, pour it out into a jar or some clean container.

Let the JUNK settle out, the yeast will remain in suspension longer, you can then pour off the clean(er) yeast and re-use it.
Click to expand...

This works fine but I have found 2-4 weeks is as long as you should let it go before re-use, longer than that and you need a starter or you will have LONG lag times. For the wash liquid, cheap canned beer works great. Decant the liquid in the jar, dump into a sanitized container (large, 1 gallon-ish is ideal), dump in a few cans of swill. Swirl and let it sit for a few hours. There will be creamy yeast on top, which you pitch, stop pouring when you start getting darker junk which is dead yeast and trub.
 
-TH- said:
Pol, I was wondering, how confident are you with the accuracy of this chart? You mentioned that you will most likely be tweaking it a bit. The reason I ask is because I believe one of the keys to success for no-chill brewing is going to be the accuracy of the hops adjustment. What I would love to see is this chart be promoted to "gospel" designation, but I'm not sure what it would take to get there. Maybe other "no-chillers" can confirm these adjustments or is there some scientific explaination to back it up, etc.? What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...

Meh, I dont care about gospel. As stated in the quote that you posted, it IS based on reading of the levels of isomerization taking place in the hot/cooling wort. (BYO MARCH '09) The rest is based on my experience and that of others who are actually doing this.

This is the chart I use, I will make some changes as my experience with this process increases. As for making this chart out to be more than what it is... I am not really interested. It is just a hobby, and people can experiment and innovate.
 
I'm sort of curious about the lookup table myself. I've noticed that in the summer I have to go easier on my hops and I wonder if the reason is the temperature my wort cools at. In the winter, it cools outside unless it's below freezing. Even inside, I leave it by the basement window to cool where it's generally no warmer than 60F. In the summer, it cools at 70F or more sometimes. It could be other factors, but I am adjusting for AA and using a decent enough scale for weighing the hops and that doesn't seem to matter.
 
shek - You don't need to buy a new container. I leave my wort covered in the boil kettle to cool. That way I can still use my many better bottles, and I don't have to move around very hot wort.
I probably wouldn't do this if I wanted to store the wort for weeks, but I've had no issues after 16 batches stored for up to 3 days.
 
You know Shek... if you are just putting it in the container to cool for say 24 hours, buy a 6 gallon Winpak from USPlastics and when it is cool, then pitch and ferment in that same container. The Winpaks make EXCELLENT fermentors. They are indestructible, light and have built in handles for carrying.
 
The Pol said:
This is the chart I use, I will make some changes as my experience with this process increases. As for making this chart out to be more than what it is... I am not really interested. It is just a hobby, and people can experiment and innovate.
Click to expand...

The chart has worked well for me. It forced me to actually FWH more often, which, it turns out, is a good thing :)
 
I first looked at this thread today. I admit I only skimmed over it, but it seems that most of you that are into the no-chill brewing are from southern states where the groundwater doesn't get very cold, especially in summer. In that situation, no-chill makes sense to me. My water, though, is plenty cold. I get ice cream headaches from it right out of the tap nine months of the year. So I'll stick with the old immersion chiller. But for you no-chillers, more power to you.
 
My water comes from a deep well and stays pretty cool year long.
Water temp isn't the reason I No-chill.

I use the method because of the flexibility it ads.
You can brew even if the ferm fridge is full.
You can brew even if you haven't prepared a yeast starter.
As a matter of fact, forget *making* a yeast starter... just divert some of the hot wort into another container for a real wort yeast starter.

Heat does come into play. I plan to brew like a crazy man this winter and spring to cube a good chunk of it. Next summer, I'll just ferment cubed worts with no need to brew in the hot, sticky Bama heat.
 

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