Thinking out loud, kettle whirlpool

I've been thinking about a way to automate a whirlpool in my kettle for the purpose of more efficient immersion coil chilling.

Before I go on, let me just state for the record that I am not interested in counterflow and/or plate chillers. To me, there's just too much potential for clogging, and I don't like the idea of not being able to see if the inside is really clean or not. Nor am I interested in a debate over which is the best method.

Ok, so. With my immersion chiller, I have a couple choices. I can lid the kettle, turn the water on and walk away. If I'm lucky, I'll be down to pitching temp in an hour and a half. Or, I can sit there with my brew spoon stirrring, and have it done in 25 mins. Problem is, the lid has to be off to do it, and that's more cold side exposure than I'm comfortable with.

I know that Jamiel Z uses a march pump and recirculates wort in his kettle to accomplish his whirlpool chilling. Now I could do that, but I'm just a lowly extract brewer so I don't have a $130 pump, lying around.
I have seen DIY whirlpool designs that use smallish DC motors to run a paddle through the lid, so that may be doable, but I had another idea...

What if I tapped into the water pressure I'm already using through the chiller to spin an impeller shaft? Anybody here hydrodynamics savvy enough to tell me if this is stupid idea or not? Can I simply take a March pump replacement head and plumb a garden hose to it and get enough torque to spin a small paddle in the wort at low rpms? I'm on city water so I have decent PSI, I'm just not sure how that power translates mechanically.
The pump heads are fairly inexpensive. If it works, I think this could be done for well under $50 all in.

you won't have nearly enough torque to do what you need. you may gain a bit if you make a mechanical connection to the shaft instead of the magnetic drive that the actual pump uses, but i don't think it'll move 5 or 6 gallons of wort well enough to whirlpool. keep your eyes out for a used march or chugger pump or get used to stirring

If you're just looking to agitate the wort to prevent thermal stratification during cooling, your idea may actually work. If you want to create enough movement to actually whirlpool.... then doubtful.

Worst case, you have the pump head - buy the motor and do it the right way!

You could just get a small sump pump to recirculate ice water through the chiller. Many on here have used this technique with success and dramatically reduced their chilling time.

Don't know if this helps but.. I went to a cheap tool store (harbor freight in this case) and bought a submersible pump for $40. The wort chiller hooks directly up to it and it sits in a 5 gallon bucket of ice water. The kettle sits in a ice water bath next to it and in ~ 5 mins were at 80f.

I've seen small pumps that you can run with a drill. I wonder if you ran your water through that if it would have enough torque to turn a paddle? It's worth a try - they have one at harbor freight for under $4

How about looking for a used rotisserre motor used for grill rotisserres? Some have a varible speed switch.

These are great ideas, I may try drilling a hole in my lid and hook up a stainless steel mash paddle cut down to fit into the pot connected to my rotisserie. I wouldn't get the full whirlpool but if I add a cheap pump to recirculate ice water through the chiller I bet the temps would drop really fast. I really like the idea of using the water pressure to turn the paddle though.

Cerevisaphile said:

I've seen small pumps that you can run with a drill. I wonder if you ran your water through that if it would have enough torque to turn a paddle? It's worth a try - they have one at harbor freight for under $4

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I actually have one of those and I love it. It takes a ton of torque to drive it though. I can barely turn the drive spindle by hand.

liquiditynerd said:

Don't know if this helps but.. I went to a cheap tool store (harbor freight in this case) and bought a submersible pump for $40. The wort chiller hooks directly up to it and it sits in a 5 gallon bucket of ice water. The kettle sits in a ice water bath next to it and in ~ 5 mins were at 80f.

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I sometime use a pseudo prechiller if my groundwater is warmer than pitch temp. I take my garden hose and coil it up inside a spare cooler and add a bag of ice and water. Works great.

I'm a little skeptical about using most submersible pumps as they are not food safe. Submersible aquarium pumps are something I have a little experience with, and these have to be hermetically sealed and made of inert materials so as not to contaminate the extremely sensitive environment of an aquarium. I'd feel ok about that, but I have a feeling they would fail in the high temp environment.

Arkma said:

How about looking for a used rotisserre motor used for grill rotisserres? Some have a varible speed switch.

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That may be a winner! The slower the better I think. Just attach it to a large disk with paddles along the outside radius and we could be in business:rockin:

I'm a little skeptical about using most submersible pumps as they are not food safe... ...I'd feel ok about that, but I have a feeling they would fail in the high temp environment.

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The chilling water never comes into contact with the wort or any tubing that the wort travels through.

As for the high heat aspect, most chill to around 100ºF (which, in most cases, happens in under 15 minutes) then switch to the pump, recirculating ice water to get it down to pitching temps quicker.

Yeah, I too run a $49 harbor freight pump, with a plastic rubber tub full of water and ice, through a 1/2in copper immersion chiller and then I just stand and stir. I buy about 20-30 pounds of ice. I let the system run without ice for about 10 min to get everything down to about 140 and then start putting ice in the tub. Then temp just starts dropping.

I use brass quick connects for the hose and immersion chiller, so I can get stuff attached and going in seconds. About $110 for everything and couldn't be happier.

there are these: http://greatbreweh.com/Beer_Pump.html
I've never used one, but I've seen them mentioned in other threads. It's not much more than your plan to do the march pump head idea. This is what I would try. There is another website that sells something similar with stainless threads. I don't recall what the seller was.

mo_feezy said:

there are these: http://greatbreweh.com/Beer_Pump.html
I've never used one, but I've seen them mentioned in other threads. It's not much more than your plan to do the march pump head idea. This is what I would try. There is another website that sells something similar with stainless threads. I don't recall what the seller was.

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Ahah. That would also do the trick. Probably getting close to MP price once shipping from CAN to CA is factored in though.

What is your budget and what is your skill set?

Assuming for a second that you do not want/need the whirlpool effect to settle out particulates, I would go with a cheap drill and a metal paint/ground mixer. Build a small rig to brace/hold it and let it spin your liquids.

I am just spitballing this idea.

ToV said:

What is your budget and what is your skill set?

Assuming for a second that you do not want/need the whirlpool effect to settle out particulates, I would go with a cheap drill and a metal paint/ground mixer. Build a small rig to brace/hold it and let it spin your liquids.

I am just spitballing this idea.

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I do want the whirlpool effect...I'm after the trub cone and all that. I've thought about the paint stirrer, but I'd prefer something I can turn on and walk away from. It needs to be low speed and not aerate the heck out of things.
I'm pretty handy, but I don't get much time to tinker anymore. I would be disappointed in myself if I couldn't make something happen for less than $50.

Hamsterbite said:

It needs to be low speed and not aerate the heck out of things.

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You're talking about your wort, right? Based on this I'm assuming you're feeding your wort oxygen some other way before pitching the yeast?

ArkansasRazorbacks said:

You're talking about your wort, right? Based on this I'm assuming you're feeding your wort oxygen some other way before pitching the yeast?

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Yes, but only after its chilled. Trying to keep hot side aeration out of my process.

Hamsterbite said:

Yes, but only after its chilled. Trying to keep hot side aeration out of my process.

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Ahhhh - so based on your reply I googled "hot aeration" and learned something new today. Thank you!

ArkansasRazorbacks said:

Ahhhh - so based on your reply I googled "hot aeration" and learned something new today. Thank you!

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Yup. It's impact to home brewing is not understood very well, so I'm just erring on the side of caution. Probably not a big deal though.

I always try my best to eliminate aeration until I get my temps below 90

What about a stir plate situated under the kettle with a stir rod on the inside. Might be a very cheap option. You just have to make it suitable for high temps.

Also as writing this I think you may have issues with magnets???...

DuckiesRevenge said:

What about a stir plate situated under the kettle with a stir rod on the inside. Might be a very cheap option. You just have to make it suitable for high temps.

Also as writing this I think you may have issues with magnets???...

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Don't think that would work with a metal boil kettle, ferrous or no. Assuming it did though, that would keep all the break in suspension when what I want is for it to settle out into a nice cone.

Rip a windshield motor from a car, it is a low rpm motor with reasonable torque. The one I have works on DC so to vary the speed I just switch DC volt adapters.

I personally think a pump is a better solution. But, if u want to try a paddle, this is the way I would go.

For a cheap foodgrade high temp pump, I have heard of people using dishwasher pumps.

ODI3 said:

Rip a windshield motor from a car, it is a low rpm motor with reasonable torque. The one I have works on DC so to vary the speed I just switch DC volt adapters.

I personally think a pump is a better solution. But, if u want to try a paddle, this is the way I would go.

For a cheap foodgrade high temp pump, I have heard of people using dishwasher pumps.

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I will look into these also. Thanks. The dishwasher pump seems like a natural fit. I'm not bent on paddles, I'm just assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that a low rpm dc motor will be the most cost effective route.